Please talk to me about GAPS and other gut-healing strategies

[bodhitree]

The link someone posted the other day to that article about food intolerances and the GAPS diet really has me thinking. DD has multiple food intolerances, and she also has a history of medical care that is very much consistent with dysbiosis/leaky gut (c-section, chronic ear infections leading to frequent use of antibiotics and ibuprofen). So I can work on eliminating the foods that are a problem for her, but if I understand correctly, she will keep developing sensitivities to more foods until or unless we find a way to heal her gut so that undigested food proteins stay where they belong instead of leaking into her bloodstream and causing all kinds of problems.

So according to the GAPS diet website, that plan is THE way to heal the gut. Which is fine, except that we are a vegetarian family and that isn't compatible with GAPS. I'm thinking hard about the pros and cons of making a change, and we're going to see a new doc next month to get his advice, but in the meantime, here are some things I'm wondering:

1. Is it really necessary to eliminate all grains and starches? I understand that the point is to starve the bad gut flora and replace them with good gut flora, but don't the good gut flora eat the same things the bad ones do? Sorry if that's a dumb question, but I really don't get it.

2. I don't get the impression that everyone on here is strictly following GAPS, but it does seem like a lot of folks use various tools, including bone broths, probiotics, cod liver oil, etc. What do you all see as the truly essential things that you need to do for gut healing?

3. Please tell me about your experiences with all this stuff. Have you seen some real healing? Or maybe have you been aiming for that but not really getting there? Is it really possible that DD could just heal and then eat a normal, unrestricted diet?

I know that many responders are probably going to want to advise me to just stop being vegetarian. Just keep in mind that it's easy to advise someone else to change something really fundamental about their life, but not so easy to do it yourself. I'm taking a hard look at my values and what I am actually willing and able to do, but I've been vegetarian my entire adult life (15 years now), and it's deeply connected to my sense of self and my spirituality. So, not something I can be casual about changing.

Thanks for your help.

[deditus]

1. Is it really necessary to eliminate all grains and starches? I understand that the point is to starve the bad gut flora and replace them with good gut flora, but don't the good gut flora eat the same things the bad ones do? Sorry if that's a dumb question, but I really don't get it.

Yes, it is. I think you should read the GAPS book or at least read Breaking The Vicious Cycle to understand the theory behind why eliminating certain carbohydrates works. It isn't just to starve the flora. The villi where the enzymes are produced to digest sugars and starches are constantly damaged as long as you keep eating those things. They can't heal so you just continue the  cycle of inflammation.

2. I don't get the impression that everyone on here is strictly following GAPS, but it does seem like a lot of folks use various tools, including bone broths, probiotics, cod liver oil, etc. What do you all see as the truly essential things that you need to do for gut healing?

We are not following GAPS but working that way - we can't keep losing foods. We are working on cutting the last small bits of grain we eat, adding lots of bone broth, eating through the huge sack of potatoes my parents brought me, etc. We have already restricted intolerances (for over 2 years), added enzymes (on and off for 2 years), probiotics and probiotic foods, clo, magnesium, zinc, b vits. We drink nourishing herbal infusions, juice vegetables, drink green smoothies, eat only animals that have been fed their proper diets. Really, for us we have had to do it all. Skip one thing and we go backwards. I feel like you can kind stay in a holding pattern for along time just restricting foods w/o a healing diet. I really want to be over this, though. I could care less if I ever eat gluten, dairy, or soy again, but I want eggs and coconut back for dd.

3. Please tell me about your experiences with all this stuff. Have you seen some real healing? Or maybe have you been aiming for that but not really getting there? Is it really possible that DD could just heal and then eat a normal, unrestricted diet?

As above, we've been doing this for 2 years with some progress. Dd poops, eats, sleeps, plays, and grows (slowly). So that is an improvement. But she still has lost foods and gets eczema so I am not happy to keep on that trail. I doubt we will ever be in a place where our diets could be "unrestricted". There is so much "food" that is not really food, I just don't think our bodies will ever handle those things.

[joybird]

Yes, it is necessary to remove all the foods on the diet.  It is based on the type of sugars being consumed.  Simply put, monosaccharides (fruit and honey) are one molecule sugars and are absorbed quickly in the gut, disaccharides and polysaccharides are not digested in a compromised gut because the necessary enzymes are not being produced, so they feed the unhelpful bacteria.  The point is that the gut is colonized by harmful bacteria, meaning that they have adhered or attached themselves to the gut wall when the good bacteria were wiped out.  So, you need to starve them out and then re-populate the gut with the proper bacteria.  The proper intestinal bacteria do not need starches or complex sugars to live in their natural environment.  They do need to be replenished often as part of a healthy diet.  Until the 'bad' bacteria are eliminated, probiotics won't be very effective anyway because there is no room for them on the gut wall.  

All those things you mentioned will help heal the intestinal lining.  But in my experience, they do not do much, or nearly enough, without the dietary changes.  It is really helpful to read one of the books the pp mentioned to understand the perpetual cycle of inflammation.  

I did the diet with dd 3 years ago and I saw amazing healing within a few months.  It was amazing.  Her eczema slowly disappeared as she became less and less reactive.  When we started, she was reacting to pretty much everything, randomly.  I did many TEDs and never figured it out.  I did do a IgG test for her and she was off the charts for all gluten grains, eggs, moderate for cow dairy, none of which she was eating.  I left those out of the diet kept her low level reactions out for the first while.   BUT I did not stick with it long enough.  I started adding back in GF grains and potatoes and things after her symptoms were gone  (maybe 3-4 months?).  That was fine for a while but then I got pg and tired and lost track of things.  She slowly started reacting to things again and the eczema and other symptoms slowly came back.  Again though, I could not even pinpoint the reactive foods, they changed all the time.  So now we're recently back on it again and committed to a year at least, since I know that it works.  When I started the diet the last time, I had no idea if it would help but I had exhausted all other avenues.  Oh, and before we did GAPS/SCD the first time, my dd could not eat goat dairy.  Afterwards and since she seems to tolerate it just fine.  Of course I started out with only fermented dairy but now she can eat goat cheese as well.

It is possible to do the diet without eggs.  It is even possible to do it without nuts, but it is hard without either of those.  I have to say I don't think it's possible (or healthy to even try) to do it without meat.  Meat is an evolutionarily appropriate food for humans and most of the diet is based on protein and produce.  About eating a 'normal, unrestricted diet', well...the diet people consider normal in this part of the world is anything but.  I will always keep gluten to a minimum and won't eat soy or other non-foods.  I am  amused when people mention my food stuff as though it's weird and abnormal while they are eating food that is unrecognizable from nature's perspective.  Everything we eat comes straight from nature and is not processed or packaged.  As the pp said, there is so much food that isn't really food and I don't particularly want to eat that stuff now anyway, or feed it to my kids.  For us it is a lifestyle change but I do hope that somewhere down the road we can be more lenient, which is a reasonable expectation for this diet.  

FWIW, I feel a million times better already.  My moods are more level, I sleep properly again, I have energy that I just didn't have before, my skin is clear.  Okay, I cook all the time and it is a lot of work, but I figure it balances out since I can actually function in my days now.  On the downside, I also spend a small fortune on food each month, which I really can't afford.  Protein and produce cost a LOT of money and we go through so much of it.   Also, I did not do the intro diet at this time because I'm still nursing dd2 and I am not willing to detox too much or too quickly.  I figure we'll stay on the main diet for a month or two and then go back and do the intro when I have prepared more and the kids are adjusted.  I feel like we definitely need to do that but I am overwhelmed enough without the thought of eating nothing but soup for an indefinite period.  I need to prepare emotionally and provisionally before that happens.

[californiajenn]

The GAPS diet is like my religion. lol It worked so well for my family and I tell everyone.

For us, it is NOT a cure all but it did allow me to start healing. Many of my food sensitivities are gone, dd's eczema is gone, dh's anxiety is much better. The right supplements made the biggest difference for me.

I followed the diet at least 80% for about a year and dd about 6 months. We've transitioned to Primal and are doing great. I still have healing to do but I'm so much better.

[Amy0417]

Thank you for making this post! I need to read up more on the GAPS diet.  I don't know how I'll ever be able to do it for myself because I do not eat meat.  I wouldn't even be able to get myself to ingest and bone &joint broth.  I truly wish there was another way to go about it.  I could try for DD but getting her to eat any kind of broth is a struggle.  Thank you for the info everyone!

[bodhitree]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses, mamas. I appreciate hearing about how GAPS has worked for you all and what your paths have been like. To be clear, I'm not wanting to heal DD's gut so that we can consume the standard American diet. We never have eaten the SAD and never will. We eat a whole foods diet based on whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and legumes, with very little in the way of processed foods. So it's not that I'm hoping to be able to live off of McDonald's and Pop Tarts or anything.

Amy0417, that's my issue with it too. It would be a 180 degree change in our eating patterns as a family, and DH is basically vegan and not wanting to change that at all, so I would be cooking multiple meals and we would no longer be sharing the same foods at the dinner table, which is also important to me.

I would also love to hear from some mamas who have chosen not to move in a GAPS-like direction...if there are any such mamas around here.

ETA: I was also wondering if anyone knew whether any studies have been conducted to test the efficacy of GAPS or SCD.

[joybird]

If you don't eat meat for ethical reasons, I think it would be very confusing and unfair to your dd to ask her to eat it.  There are plenty of mamas here who are not following the GAPS program and hopefully they will chime in.  There is no one way to healing and plenty of people have found other ways that work for them.  Glutamine is one of the main healing substances in bone broth and is available as a supplement.  It won't have the same healing properties as whole food nutrition, but it is something.

I will say though, there is probably some truth to the idea that too many grains, especially improperly prepared ones, can wreck havoc on the human digestive system.  They are very difficult to digest and our bodies aren't particularly suited to eating them.  The same goes for legumes.   Its probably one of the reasons that autoimmune disorders are so common nowadays.  90% of our immunity is located in the gut.  Our species evolved as hunter-gatherers and its only recently on our timeline that grains have been consumed on such a scale.  Something to think about anyway.

[DevaMajka]

Before ds2's food sensitivities, most of our meals were vegan (we were never actually vegetarian, because we'd eat whatever was served at others' homes). I did try meat early on in major ED's, but that got gross quickly. I'd rather eat plain black beans day in and day out than plain meat. That's just a teeny background.

Anyway, I doubt I'd ever do a GAPS diet. I'd have to be pretty desperate AND pretty convinced that it would work for us. I'd have an incredibly hard time relying on meat for protein for more than short periods of time. I'm also not convinced that their forbidden foods are a problem, but I obviously don't know for sure.

That said, we do bone broths as often as I can make them. I *do* think there are a lot of nutrients in them, and I'm hoping they will help with ds1's constant cavities and other tooth problems. It sucks that it's part of the "industry" though.

[joybird]

This is completely off-topic...

With all due respect, we live on a planet where life eats itself.  You can find it beautiful or you can find it ugly.  If you have decided that it's gross, it would probably be more respectful to keep that sentiment to yourself on a public forum.  I would never presume to call others' eating habits gross.  It is pretty immature and could be considered rude.  It's possible that your referring to animal meat in such a way is similar to my feelings of aversion toward bananas, but I don't get that vibe.  The whole gross factor is way too common among vegetarian folk for me to presume that.

I have moved on long ago from that lifestyle, not because of anyone's allergies but because my spiritual journey in life simply followed in that direction and my views evolved. I was also profoundly affected by my experiences living on a farm in a foreign country where the cycle of life is considered spiritual and sacred and where people are intimately bound with nature in a way that our society has mostly forgotten.  Now, the meat industry is definitely gross.  No argument there.  I personally would not purchase factory meat (never mind consume or feed it to my kids).  There are other options.  Our meat comes from local farmers I know who love their animals.  

If I sound defensive, I might be.  But it is more on behalf of the animal beings that share the earth with us.  I rubs me the wrong way when I hear people dismissing their earthly flesh in such an uncaring way, particularly if its life was sacrificed to end up on your table and nourish your family.  I hope that people who find eating animals gross will just refrain from consuming them.  As a sign of respect, as it were. 

[DevaMajka]

No, you're understanding me wrong. I found the taste gross. What I meant to convey with that sentence was that I'd take the taste of plain black beans over plain chicken or beef any day. We still are eating meat because of trying to figure out ds's sensitivities, and I still find the taste of plain chicken or beef unappealing. It's just not pleasing to my tastebuds. Now, if it's covered up that's a different story. But on the ED, it was plain. That's what I was trying to convey, but not be too wordy.

If I'd said "I was on an ED of only banana, but it got gross pretty quickly" I think most people would understand that I found bananas gross after eating them many times a day every day, and not that the act of eating bananas is gross.

As far as eating other animals, it's not anything I'd ever call beautiful. But to each his own.

I'm not going to attack anyone for their food choices. I have a (vegan) friend who more or less attacked me (she had some choice words for people who eat animals, something like "not worth the air you breath" something like that) for eating dairy and eggs while trying to figure out ds's sensitivities. I didn't even tell her I was eating/had eaten meat. It hurt that a friend couldn't see that I was doing what I had to do to keep my kid healthy. Or at least if she couldn't see that, at least don't attack me for it. So no, I'm not attacking anyone for their food choices- vegan, omni, or SAD.

[joybird]

I see where you're coming from, now.  I've just heard the word gross used about meat too much (from vegetarians) and to me its a sign of serious cultural confusion that people are so far removed from nature, from our origins, from the earth.  It's as though they are ashamed of being part of nature and want to disconnect from it entirely.  Of course, you can't - even if you don't technically eat any animals you are still part of the daily death and rebirth in so so many ways.  

It is difficult to see the beauty of inter-connectedness in this society where things are always compartmentalized and degraded, I know.

That's too bad about your friend.  I'd tell her she ought to march down to the nearest indian reservation and talk to some meat-eating folks there about whether or not they're worth the air they breathe.  How does she imagine her ancestors managed to get her here at all I wonder?   There are many people who use their vegetarianism as a coping mechanism to make them feel superior to others, to help themselves feel that they ARE worthy enough to live on the planet. Too often their veg status is way more about their own ego than it is about the actual animals or any of the real political issues involved.  

ETA:  Not all, of course.  I have plenty of vegetarian friends and I used to be one myself, but its a clearly visible tendency and not at all hard to spot once you are aware of it.  And I am sorry for going so dang far off the op's topic!

[DevaMajka]

I see what you mean. I was just trying to convey that I come from a pro-veg perspective, but that I do think that bone broths have serious nutritional value. It sounded like the OP wanted to hear from people who didn't think they would try the GAPS diet to heal, who maybe were trying to heal other ways, so I thought I'd pipe in. :) I'm not anti-GAPS, I just think I'd be unhappy on it, is all.

And to add to the other ways we are trying to improve our reactions, we're doing probiotics, supplements, bone broths, and cell salts. I do think that nutrition is at least a part of J's issues, because he went 2 months over the summer where we had no intentional restrictions that he had no eczema. I wasn't paying much attention to other symptoms (poop, sleep, stuff that I didn't really know were symptoms), so I don't know if he was totally asymtomatic or not.

[sbgrace]

We did SCD with my son and then he was diagnosed with a metabolic condition that needed meds that were (majorly) contraindicated in SCD and a high carb diet to boot! I was so scared. But it turns out that, for him, those were wonderful changes.

In short, I don't think you have to do GAPS or SCD for gut health.

Healthy food (soaked grains for example), enzymes, probiotics and probiotic foods, healthy fats, and key supplements can promote healing. Eating in a way that our bodies don't handle is going to hurt our gut health even if it's the way others are thriving. Any stress on the body, for example, contributes to yeast susceptibility and immune system malfunction. Glutamate from bone broths or supplements is harmful to some. It goes on. There is no one way that's best for all.

At another level, nuts particularly are difficult to digest and inhibit mineral absorption (I do know preparation/soaking/etc. helps that a lot) and egg has some major mineral absorption issues itself along with some good things about it. My son is now nut anaphylactic so it's a non-issue anyway but I always wonder why these healing diets are so nut heavy particularly (GAPS not as much as SCD)!

[bodhitree]

Originally Posted by sbgrace 

AWe did SCD with my son and then he was diagnosed with a metabolic condition that needed meds that were (majorly) contraindicated in SCD and a high carb diet to boot! I was so scared. But it turns out that, for him, those were wonderful changes. In short, I don't think you have to do GAPS or SCD for gut health. Healthy food (soaked grains for example), enzymes, probiotics and probiotic foods, healthy fats, and key supplements can promote healing. Eating in a way that our bodies don't handle is going to hurt our gut health even if it's the way others are thriving. Any stress on the body, for example, contributes to yeast susceptibility and immune system malfunction. Glutamate from bone broths or supplements is harmful to some. It goes on. There is no one way that's best for all. At another level, nuts particularly are difficult to digest and inhibit mineral absorption (I do know preparation/soaking/etc. helps that a lot) and egg has some major mineral absorption issues itself along with some good things about it. My son is now nut anaphylactic so it's a non-issue anyway but I always wonder why these healing diets are so nut heavy particularly (GAPS not as much as SCD)!

Thank you! It makes a lot of sense to me that our bodies are different and no one way is the best way for everyone. Personally, I have always felt great on a vegetarian diet. But since I've started looking into a more Traditional Foods type way of eating, I am excited to try soaking our grains and adding probiotic foods to our diet. This week I already learned to make my own coconut yogurt and water kefir. So yeah, I'm learning some interesting and hopefully helpful stuff, even if I don't end up doing GAPS or SCD.
 

Originally Posted by joybird 

If you don't eat meat for ethical reasons, I think it would be very confusing and unfair to your dd to ask her to eat it.  There are plenty of mamas here who are not following the GAPS program and hopefully they will chime in.  There is no one way to healing and plenty of people have found other ways that work for them.  Glutamine is one of the main healing substances in bone broth and is available as a supplement.  It won't have the same healing properties as whole food nutrition, but it is something.

I will say though, there is probably some truth to the idea that too many grains, especially improperly prepared ones, can wreck havoc on the human digestive system.  They are very difficult to digest and our bodies aren't particularly suited to eating them.  The same goes for legumes.   Its probably one of the reasons that autoimmune disorders are so common nowadays.  90% of our immunity is located in the gut.  Our species evolved as hunter-gatherers and its only recently on our timeline that grains have been consumed on such a scale.  Something to think about anyway.

To be honest, I have huge ethical issues with the industrial factory farming system, but not with meat consumption itself. It's just that we frankly do not have the money to add ethically raised and slaughtered meat to our diets. And I just don't want to eat meat, for multiple reasons. I just don't. I would have to be really, really convinced that it was going to help, and at this point I'm not convinced. I'm going to keep researching until I'm pretty darn sure one way or the other.

FWIW I agree with your point that a lot of vegetarians seem to believe that they have some sort of special spiritual purity because they think they don't take life in order to live. I always want to point out to them how many of the fertilizers used in organic vegetable farming come directly from animals--not only manure, but also fish emulsion, bone meal, and blood meal. And when farming is done well, I agree with you that there is a beauty to the interconnectedness and interdependence that you see on a well-managed farm. So I do really see what you're saying there.
 

Originally Posted by DevaMajka 

I'm not going to attack anyone for their food choices. I have a (vegan) friend who more or less attacked me (she had some choice words for people who eat animals, something like "not worth the air you breath" something like that) for eating dairy and eggs while trying to figure out ds's sensitivities. I didn't even tell her I was eating/had eaten meat. It hurt that a friend couldn't see that I was doing what I had to do to keep my kid healthy. Or at least if she couldn't see that, at least don't attack me for it. So no, I'm not attacking anyone for their food choices- vegan, omni, or SAD.

See, that's terrible. Having compassion for animals is nothing to brag about if you can't manage to have compassion for people too. Everyone has inherent worth, and if someone really believes they are in a position to judge someone else as worthless (based on dietary choices, for Pete's sake!), then I have to hope that they will encounter some opportunities for spiritual growth.

Okay, off my soapbox now, that just made me really mad that your friend said that to you.