Would you still homeschool if it was illegal where you live?

[MittensKittens]

I am asking, because that is the situation we are in. We live in an Eastern European country where elementary school (starts at age 6.5) is absolutely compulsory, unless for medical reasons the child cannot attend. I have posted about it a couple times before on this part of MDC. I tried looking into K12, or other correspondence schools. I tried seeing if bending the rules would be possible because we are foreigners. I inquired if enrolling my kids in a private school, taking tests but not attending every day, could be the solution. The answers are that homeschooling is illegal - and the possible penalties are monetary, and then if the kids still are not in school, even prison. But, and that's a big but, the authorities are highly inefficient and corrupt. Unless someone reports us, and knows our full address, nothing will happen.

My current neighbors are extremely, extremely nosy. I am willing to move house, but that's the general culture over here. I have been harassed for babywearing, letting my toddler walk, putting him in a stroller... I have been harassed for being a solo parent, for being a foreigner, for my baby crying at night, and the list goes on. I am already asked on a regular basis where my kids will go to school. They are 4 and 2, and school (well, the compulsory preparatory program) starts at 6.5, or possibly at 6, depending on which of the authorities you believe. Despite the fact that my four year old has more knowledge now than is taught in first grade, I a, sure neighbors will report me. I can lie, but they will notice the kids being at home, or out and about, during school hours. And of course, I don't want that kind of trouble.

Yet, I am absolutely convinced that homeschooling is the best option for us, for so many reasons. Over the last year, I have been working with my oldest. I am half American, half European, and in the European country school starts at four, so over there, we would already officially be homeschoolers. I am thinking about moving abroad, but am not sure if we can pull it off (that's another thread entirely!). I know one family who homeschooled for three years before being legally threatened, then they put their kids in school.

What would you do? Would you still homeschool? The local school environment is appalling in many ways, so that is a big factor for us. Has anyone got any experience with this, perhaps many years ago in the US? Any advice to make it work?

[laohaire]

I have a friend from your country and honestly, I've lately been not really keen on continuing the friendship partly based on the anti-homeschooling crap I get from her. She's told me it's illegal there, and the implication was that it's for good reason. She is also (insert BIG sigh here) a school psychologist, so she's informed me that she KNOWS about all the problems that come with kids that homeschool and how behind they are in every single measure, blah blah blah.

Honestly, I'd be pretty nervous about homeschooling there. You have a nosy neighbor. The penalties include potential jail time - I would not mess around with that. Maybe you could bribe an official if caught, but you're kind of an outsider so I wouldn't count on that.

I was surprised to hear school begins at 4 there, my friend told me it's 7.

You could move but there's going to be SOME nosy neighbor no matter where you go. I've only been there once, but I swear, it's like the women all think everything is their business. And if you've been harassed already for the stuff you do/are... I dunno, I'd be really nervous about homeschooling.

I wish I could give you happier words of support, but jail time is not something I would mess around with, and I don't think your chances of going undetected are all that great.

My anti-homeschooling school psychologist friend sees no irony in telling me the problems she sees, though. Well, she doesn't complain so much about the school structure itself, but I guess there are a fair number of gangs, plus seriously entitled brat kids who can get away with murder as far as their parents are concerned, and of course abuse she can't do anything about. All the same in the US of course, too. Oh, I guess she did mention about the school system - they don't tolerate differences, if a kid is ahead or behind, too bad for them. They won't even promote a kid a grade even if they are clearly way ahead. No such thing as an IEP or anything. Disabilities? No such thing, right? No understanding (or, rather, caring) of different learning styles.

If this is really important, would/could you move to the US? I don't think any country in Europe is really homeschooling friendly.

[MittensKittens]

Originally Posted by laohaire 

I have a friend from your country and honestly, I've lately been not really keen on continuing the friendship partly based on the anti-homeschooling crap I get from her. She's told me it's illegal there, and the implication was that it's for good reason. She is also (insert BIG sigh here) a school psychologist, so she's informed me that she KNOWS about all the problems that come with kids that homeschool and how behind they are in every single measure, blah blah blah.

Honestly, I'd be pretty nervous about homeschooling there. You have a nosy neighbor. The penalties include potential jail time - I would not mess around with that. Maybe you could bribe an official if caught, but you're kind of an outsider so I wouldn't count on that.

I was surprised to hear school begins at 4 there, my friend told me it's 7.

You could move but there's going to be SOME nosy neighbor no matter where you go. I've only been there once, but I swear, it's like the women all think everything is their business. And if you've been harassed already for the stuff you do/are... I dunno, I'd be really nervous about homeschooling.

I wish I could give you happier words of support, but jail time is not something I would mess around with, and I don't think your chances of going undetected are all that great.

My anti-homeschooling school psychologist friend sees no irony in telling me the problems she sees, though. Well, she doesn't complain so much about the school structure itself, but I guess there are a fair number of gangs, plus seriously entitled brat kids who can get away with murder as far as their parents are concerned, and of course abuse she can't do anything about. All the same in the US of course, too. Oh, I guess she did mention about the school system - they don't tolerate differences, if a kid is ahead or behind, too bad for them. They won't even promote a kid a grade even if they are clearly way ahead. No such thing as an IEP or anything. Disabilities? No such thing, right? No understanding (or, rather, caring) of different learning styles.

If this is really important, would/could you move to the US? I don't think any country in Europe is really homeschooling friendly.

You are right - school starts at 7 (prep program at 6 or 6.5, contradictory directives) here. Four is the age school starts in my (partial) country of origin. Funny how your friend knows so much about homeschooled kids' problems when it is illegal over here, isn't it? I bet she also has a fair share of nasty stuff to say about one-parent families, which are officially treated as "incomplete" and potentially criminal by the school system.

I am so, so frustrated with this whole country to be honest. I would LOVE to move to the US, but the low cost of living here is what enables me to work only an hour or so a day, and be able to provide a reasonable income. I doubt very much I could live in the US and make ends meet, while still having the TIME to homeschool, you know? I'm thinking of other countries, Thailand perhaps...

You are so right. Differences are not tolerated here. We get all the nasty stuff communism brings with it, without any of the benefits. And we are different, in just about every way you can think of. Not a good combination, at all.

[kgianforti]

As much as it would pain me, I would not home school if it were illegal. I don't think I could handle the stress of breaking the law like that. I would feel like I would need to hide way too much and be way too dishonest. I also wouldn't be able to set myself as an example for my children if I am breaking the law on purpose. How could I promote honesty if I'm lying and hiding the truth??

That is just my personal conviction.

[laohaire]

Originally Posted by MittensKittens 

You are right - school starts at 7 (prep program at 6 or 6.5, contradictory directives) here. Four is the age school starts in my (partial) country of origin. Funny how your friend knows so much about homeschooled kids' problems when it is illegal over here, isn't it? I bet she also has a fair share of nasty stuff to say about one-parent families, which are officially treated as "incomplete" and potentially criminal by the school system.

I am so, so frustrated with this whole country to be honest. I would LOVE to move to the US, but the low cost of living here is what enables me to work only an hour or so a day, and be able to provide a reasonable income. I doubt very much I could live in the US and make ends meet, while still having the TIME to homeschool, you know? I'm thinking of other countries, Thailand perhaps...

You are so right. Differences are not tolerated here. We get all the nasty stuff communism brings with it, without any of the benefits. And we are different, in just about every way you can think of. Not a good combination, at all.

About her knowing all about homeschooling - TELL ME ABOUT IT. Well, she has her Master's degree (or whatever it's called there) and I'm sure the evils of homeschooling in other countries was studied in great detail. She's a single parent (divorced, not "single mama by choice") so, no, I don't hear her spout about that. Though, now that I think about it, she apparently hasn't actually told her son they are divorced (though his father did, you know, move out). Insert dizzy smiley here.

I'm not seeing a single parent in the US having time to homeschool either, sorry. Sometimes I think a two-working-parent-household might manage it with a lot of effort and commitment, but one mama alone? No, it would take a miracle I think. Like a trust fund miracle.

Could you move out of the city? I have no idea what the schools are like in the country areas. I'm sure they are the same in terms of not tolerating differences, but if there's less gangs and bullying maybe that would be worth it.

I dunno. It sounds tough, it really does.

[kristin0713]

I would not in the situation you describe.  Worst case scenario, they take your kids and/or put you in jail and you are separated from them.  I can't even imagine what a nightmare that would be, especially in a country that is inefficient and corrupt as you say.  That could very much work against you. 

[SpiderMum]

I'd move.  You've got a couple years to go so I'd start working on making that happen in the mean time.  School is NOT an option in my mind and I would do anything to keep my young child out of it.

[PGTlatte]

No, I would not unless I could find a legal option.  But I would move.

[philomom]

Originally Posted by kgianforti 

As much as it would pain me, I would not home school if it were illegal. I don't think I could handle the stress of breaking the law like that. I would feel like I would need to hide way too much and be way too dishonest. I also wouldn't be able to set myself as an example for my children if I am breaking the law on purpose. How could I promote honesty if I'm lying and hiding the truth??

That is just my personal conviction.

Yes, you took the words I was going to say. Right on, mama!

[mmmmochi]

Mittens! Oh you poor thing!

First off, what I would do is leave the country and go somewhere less hostile. Not necessarily back to the States, but out of there. You do not sound as if you are content there, and you only have one life. Why live it in a country which is unpleasant to be in!

I do know how hard it is, however, to move. We do not want to be here in Japan, but are tied by finances. Luckily, it looks like we have finally worked out a move. We have been working towards this for a while. I am lucky, I have dh, and he earns enough for me to homeschool and not have to work.

Long term, can you work towards a move? How would you feel about school in the US? Is your heart set on homeschooling, or just not school in the country you are currently in?

If you are looking at penalties which could involve losing your children, nothing is worth that, not even homeschooling.

We are lucky, we had to sign up with a charter school and provide evidence of registration, but that was it. Clearly things are even harder for you where you are, than for me.

It sounds to me, as if a big change is needed. Noone deserves to live like you are having to live. It is soul destroying!

It has taken time for us to come close to a move out of this country. If we stay, we are financially very safe. If we go, we are taking a risk. However the quality of life for all of us will be so much better. It is worth the risk. Is the financial security worth the lack of quality of life?

I really hope things get easier for you.

hugs

[onlyzombiecat]

I would not homeschool if the risk was going to jail or my child being removed from me.

If I really could not work with the legal school options that were available then I would try to get my family living somewhere else as soon as I could where the schools were better or homeschooling was legal.

Sounds like you are in a really tough spot.

[Arduinna]

I'd do everything I could to move to a country that actually respects personal freedoms. But I'd do it before I started HSing.

[Arduinna]

Originally Posted by MittensKittens 

I am asking, because that is the situation we are in. We live in an Eastern European country where elementary school (starts at age 6.5) is absolutely compulsory, unless for medical reasons the child cannot attend. I have posted about it a couple times before on this part of MDC. I tried looking into K12, or other correspondence schools. I tried seeing if bending the rules would be possible because we are foreigners.

Since you say you are a foreigner, is your family there with a temp work visa or something? Or are you on a path to citizenship? The reason I'm asking is because even though HSing is illegal in Germany for example I'm pretty sure there are American families that live there that are HSing. I'd check with a lawyer regarding your legal status and how it impacts your need to submit to local law. If both of you are foreign nationals you might be exempt from the local law regarding compulsory education.

[cappuccinosmom]

That sounds so frustrating!

My personal feelings (right now) are that I would settle for a less than ideal schooling in order to protect my family.  I wouldn't want to homeschool and risk losing my kids or going to jail.  It is important to me, but not *that* important.  I would probably be looking for an opportunity to move somewhere that we could homeschool with no repurcussions. 

[luv my 2 sweeties]

I would not homeschool in your situation.  The biggest reason would be, as others have said, to avoid the risk of jail time and loosing my children altogether.  But even if that were an unlikely outcome, I would still be hesitant unless I felt my children would have *some* outlet for friendships. Would they have to hide or lie to friends about their education?  It may not seem important now, but as kids get older (I have an 8 and a 10 year old, in addition to my 3 year old,) they need to have friends.  Homeschooling is no impediment at all to that here in the U.S.  Not only are there other homeschooled children around, but we don't have to hide, so my kids can openly be friends with schooled children -- and they are.  I would not have wanted to be homeschooled in a situation like you describe.  It would have to be pretty stressful for the kids, especially if they had to keep their homeschooling a secret.  That seems like too much of a burden to ask of a child unless it is a life or death situation (or nearly so).

Consider planning your move to a more welcoming country.  Even if the kids have to go to school for a couple of years until that happens, they will be all right.  Think long term on this one.  Where do you want to be (both geographically and educationally) when they are 10?  16?  25?  Do you want them to grow up in this country and raise their own children there?  Just some things to think about...  Best of luck to you and your children

[mama_daba]

i wouldn't homeschool either. i would try to move. i would also try and find some sort of alternative private school if that was an option.

[mama_daba]

also i would find out if anything like clonera is that the name? one of the internet schools is legal there as an option.

[lizzie]

Well... call me a rebel, or even an idiot, but if what I understand you to be saying is that it's illegal, and you'd probably be reported sooner or later, BUT the first round of punishment is monetary fines, before prison time comes into play - and you're confident in that - I would still homeschool. I'm kind of militant that way. The way the schools are described only reinforces my choice. I would also plan to do it with two things in mind: A) I would be using that time between now and school starting to work out any move to a more friendly country I could, and B) if for whatever reason the  option of moving to another country was NOT available to you, I'd be doing it while planning to possibly move once a year or so to keep people guessing, but also to buy my child some time to be older, stronger, and more prepared for what they would be facing when I inevitably had to send them to school to avoid jail time. There's a world of difference between sending my 6.5 y/o into the fray and sending my 8, 9, or 10 into it, yk?

And fwiw, I personally feel no obligation to submit to a corrupt gov't. I wouldn't expect my children to do something that went against our beliefs because I said so, and I think it would be easy enough for them to understand that I would not go against our beliefs just because someone else said I should.

All that being said, of course you have to make the right choice for your family, and it's entirely possible I really don't understand the gravity of the system there, or the amount of attention focused on you as a foreigner and single mother. Like I said.. call me a rebel. ;) I would also go with a PP's suggestion and find out just exactly to what sort of rights and freedoms your particular status entitles you. Either way, GL!

[MittensKittens]

I really appreciate all of your replies. Unfortunately, the law explicitly states that the educational rules apply to every resident, regardless of nationality. Things like Clonlara I looked into, but they are not legally permitted. Since the authorities will not act differently (IF they act, and that is admittedly a big but) towards homeschoolers or correspondence homeschoolers, I think I would rather use those funds for educational materials, day trips, etc. Oh, and perhaps to bribe the officials that come knocking .

Originally Posted by lizzie 

Well... call me a rebel, or even an idiot, but if what I understand you to be saying is that it's illegal, and you'd probably be reported sooner or later, BUT the first round of punishment is monetary fines, before prison time comes into play - and you're confident in that - I would still homeschool. I'm kind of militant that way. The way the schools are described only reinforces my choice. I would also plan to do it with two things in mind: A) I would be using that time between now and school starting to work out any move to a more friendly country I could, and B) if for whatever reason the  option of moving to another country was NOT available to you, I'd be doing it while planning to possibly move once a year or so to keep people guessing, but also to buy my child some time to be older, stronger, and more prepared for what they would be facing when I inevitably had to send them to school to avoid jail time. There's a world of difference between sending my 6.5 y/o into the fray and sending my 8, 9, or 10 into it, yk?

And fwiw, I personally feel no obligation to submit to a corrupt gov't. I wouldn't expect my children to do something that went against our beliefs because I said so, and I think it would be easy enough for them to understand that I would not go against our beliefs just because someone else said I should.

All that being said, of course you have to make the right choice for your family, and it's entirely possible I really don't understand the gravity of the system there, or the amount of attention focused on you as a foreigner and single mother. Like I said.. call me a rebel. ;) I would also go with a PP's suggestion and find out just exactly to what sort of rights and freedoms your particular status entitles you. Either way, GL!

Like I said, I really appreciate hearing all points of view, because it's a difficult situation and I wanted to know what other homeschoolers would do. But Lizzie, you sound like my alter ego! Your post describes by feelings. I do not see doing something illegal, or lying to stupid nosy neighbors, as immoral. I would not be ashamed to teach my kids how to keep themselves safe, and how not to allow some corrupt government to tell them how to live. Those are important lessons for me. I do not respect that law (and, for instance, a new one criminalizing non vaccinating), and I do not respect the law makers. Honesty does not motivate them, so I do not see following senseless laws as being honest.

I am of course concerned both about the risks and our quality of life. There are other folks who want to homeschool around, and we even started a campaign group to change the law. Among them, my kids have many lots of friends, who they would never have to. Both according to the law itself, and the woman who had this happen to her, fines are the first step. Then they check back to see if you enrolled your kids. I am not opposed to public schools, and would consider enrolling my kids into the international school (with international fees!). But one of the reasons I came to think homeschooling would be best for the kids is because of the appalling quality of the school system.

I know what would happen. Like with mmmmochi's kids from the other thread, the kids would be called dirty foreigners, and be treated unfairly by teachers and other pupils because of being kids of a single parent, foreigners, vegetarians, and smart. And that is before I even get to the numerous academic problems. I do have a lawyer on retainer, from when I had trouble after my homebirth, but he he will not be able to do much.

An international move would be great. The country south of us allows homeschooling, with regular state testing. But it's a country that used to be part of our's, it is more expensive, and the culture is even more traditional/patriarchal. I might go there, or have a quick exit plan in place to go there. I am also  currently looking into Suriname and Thailand. If you can recommend another nice, affordable second world country, I'd love to hear about it.

[mmmmochi]

Thailand, or how about South Korea or Malaysia?

I know there is a lot of work teaching English in South Korea, and some in Thailand. If you want to pm me, I think I know someone who used to work in Thailand and Ill ask them about companies which are good to work for.

Also, you will have to think about daycare, being a single mother. I am not sure how good the day care is in Thailand. I would say do not bother coming here. You would have much the same problem, being a single mother, non-native. Homeschooling here is not forbidden, and any rules are ignored for non Japanese, or not wholly Japanese families.

Can I ask, do you work from home? That would leave options more open. I always liked Morrocco!

If I had the choice, I would say Thailand would be a good move if wanted to go to a second world country.