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Financial Idiocy 101

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

Before I begin my ridiculous and long story, I am hoping for gentle responses and advice as I already feel beat down and stupid for the long line of mistakes I’ve made.  DH and I met in 2002 and fell instantly in love.  As he was living with his dad and I was in an apartment, we decided to look for a house in 2003 and in comes our first mistake.  We decided we had to have a house in the latest development on a golf course no less as the market was well on it’s way up.  It wasn’t out of our reach but on the upper end of our income.  He worked mainly winters in the winter sports industry (summers off), I worked in a health profession and picked up a lot more hours, working 50-60hr per week to add to his savings for a down payment.  Then he had to have a golf club membership, selling me on the idea that it was an investment…haha.  Then we decided at some point we would want a bigger house on a large lot and bought a custom home site and started house plans.  Now we had 2 mortgages, over our heads, working constantly.

  Then he found a nifty plan at a winter sports convention in 2005, let’s start a business in outdoor clothing.  So we did…used the rest of our savings, found partners who we knew had lots of money but we didn’t like or trust and moved boldly forward with little planning or knowledge about running a business.  3 years later, 3 stores later, partners bought out for a ridiculous sum of money, loan from FIL, equity line on our house, DH working the stores, me working 60hr/week and doing our business books/paperwork, we were done.  Foreclosed on the lot, then the house, closed the stores, sued by landlords, sued by ex-partners, went bankrupt, had DS, moved back to FIL’s property as all we could afford was to pay him back.  At this point, I felt we had made a serious turnaround in our priorities, we downsized, minimized expenses, kept life simple and small and worked less.  I was working part-time and DS worked a few hours a week at a minimum wage retail job.  FIL decided he didn’t like the intrusion on his property, kicked us off and said he didn’t want our money so we moved to another state to start fresh.

  To the crux of the story, while living with FIL, DH found another money-generating plan to day-trade with a program we had to pay for that guaranteed small, but positive gains.  When DH actually followed the rules, it worked but he tried to outsmart it and lost several thousand dollars.  Then he did a great song and dance, wrote out a list of rules he would read every day before trading to ensure he never strayed again, obviously I should have blocked him from any more activity but I was overwhelmed with an infant, upcoming move and work.  About that time in 2009 my parents offered to finance a home for us but keep it in their names since we obviously could not finance anything.  DH had weak plans for another outdoor sales job in the spring and I was working part-time.  And then, I checked my IRA account one day to find that it was half what it used to be…confronted DH who admitted that he had made a very stupid move with both our IRA’s and his day-trading account and lost about $50k.  The loss had been growing for about 5 months and he never said a thing to me.  DH has a crappy track record…before we met he lost about the same amount in some other investment scheme, he then convinced his mom to invest some money in a business he partly-owned with another guy.  Lost his money and her money before we met and about a year ago, gave her back some of the money without telling me and she agreed to keep it “quiet.”  This was now our money, not just his to give away and I was the only one actually bringing in an income in the first place.

  So here we are, I am angry and do not trust him, not sure how I ever will.  I still work part-time and make barely enough to pay all of our bills and refuse to work any more because I feel that DS needs his mom around a lot the first few years, at least.  DH still wants to day-trade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  And now he is reluctantly looking for work because he is tired of my holding it over his head that I make all the money.  Funny, though, I’m the only one who has consistently brought in an income to support our family and yet cannot protect it from ours, and now his financial mistakes.  His latest job idea is a commission-only contract sales job he found online which requires 12 weeks of training, no guaranteed income unless he makes sales during that time.  If I give up my shifts for 3 months, I may not get them back if…more likely when I need them.  I wake up every night while DH sleeps soundly…I go to work while DH watches movies and plays with our money online.  I will admit that he takes decent care of DS, cooks dinner and makes lunches, washed clothes/dishes, cleans the house but with this latest mistake, it doesn’t seem like enough.

  I feel like a complete idiot, taken advantage of, betrayed.  I don’t want to go through the drama of divorce (he would probably get primary custody since he’s always at home while I work and would likely get child support or alimony from me because of my income) but I’m not sure what to do anymore.  I feel like we are a financial cesspool and together are incapable of a peaceful existence.  Our relationship is crap and I am particularly worried about the effect on DS who is now 16mos.  For those who had the patience to read this, any ideas?  Thank you.

post #2 of 25

I couldn't read and not post:  I am giving you a hug across the miles.  hug2.gif

 

Other mamas here are better-versed than I am in these situations, but my random thoughts are:

 

- Can you set up a checking account in your name only, where your paychecks are deposited, to keep them safe from being traded?

 

- Would your dh be willing to go to therapy/counseling with you in order to get your relationship on the same page?  The lying about the IRA is a big thing, I think.

 

- Aggressive job-hunting on his part & don't give your shifts to get him trained:  you're going to need job security if he fails to succeed at this commission thing.

 

 

Also, when you say your relationship is crap, do you want to stick it out with him or are you thinking of leaving?

post #3 of 25

Hugs! Your dh reminds me of my brother.Always looking for an easy way to make a lot of money.In all the years they have spent trying to chase that dream they could have worked a decent job and actually have money.

 

I would have seperate finances for sure so he could not tap any money for trading. I think he needs to get a job NOW.A 12 week training course he can do AFTER he works at his real paying job.

 

Counseling might be a good idea.

 

If it were my dh I would probably demand he start getting an income into the home within a month.I don't care if he got a job at walmart or the gas station or a nursing home-money needs to be made.If he would not then I would seperate,because he would be more of a burden than an asset to the family unit.

 

I hope he gets his stuff together.My brother has been saying he will for over 10 years,and comes begging for cash.We stopping giving.We put up with a lot from loved ones.If he won't go to counseling you try it alone.It helps to get some encouragement from another.

 

 

 

Best wishes for you!

post #4 of 25

The first time my dh took money from the joint account without consulting me I declared to him that I could no longer contribute to it.  I was also the only one working outside of the home.  Not saying that everyone should take that route . . . Anyway, in your situation, I would without a doubt cut off access to the family money and set him up with an allowance based upon agreed upon needs.  Period.  If he needs more fun money, then he can get a job.  Your IRA is not a gambling fund.  I know my dh is not fiscally responsible and I have no delusions that granting him carte blanche to our accounts will get him there.  (And for anyone who wants to take issue with how this is not good for our marriage, we are in weekly counseling and moving slowly and with professional help towards joint finances.  It is just beyond our reality today.)

 

So that would be my big idea - counseling.  If the two of you are incapable of a peaceful co-existence, then again, counseling, marriage counseling with a professional trained to deal with the specific issues that you each bring individually to the table and therefore are present in your marriage.

post #5 of 25

I don't have advice, but I thought I'd put words to what I see in your husband. Maybe you'd already thought of it this way, but if not, maybe it will help you frame this in your mind.

 

Your husband seems to be in a "something-for-nothing" mentality. Some people, for some reason or other, don't feel satisfied with making money the usual way - by working. But they would rather have a "get-rich-quick" route. Unfortunately, obviously, if most people could get rich quick, then, well, we would. A tiny minority seem to make it that way, and that makes it seem like it's possible. Probably the motivation is different for different people. Some probably feel really depressed about the idea of working for "the rest of their lives." So they push to make a huge sum now so they can avoid their perceived nightmare of working for Walmart or whatever when they are 90 years old. For some, they may feel like they are too good for some crappy job, even if the job is actually considered pretty good by most people. Of course, there are also people who are driven to be entrepreneurs and not report to another boss, and I think that's quite grand actually, but that requires a lot of hard work and dedication and responsibility and luck and skill and so on.

 

A little off-topic, but I'd done some reading about the characteristics of different generations. And it seems the millennials are very optimistic, but they also feel frustrated when not everything is easy. A survey done on millennials was paired with one done decades ago (not sure if it was the Boomer generation or the Silent generation) and apparently a huge number (a majority, if I recall correctly) of millennials believe they will be millionaires. Not merely that they would like to be, but that they believe they will be. Maybe a result of well meaning attempts to tell them (as children) that they can be whatever they want to be, that they can acheive whatever they put their minds to, that their work is excellent, etc. Unfortunately for them, they are living a much different reality of an economic depression, crumbling housing market, high unemployment, etc. Is your husband a millennial by any chance? I can really feel for how distressed many of them must feel - they must feel kind of lied to.

 

I don't think that falling for the myth is a personality flaw. But the question is, can your husband wake up and smell the coffee?

post #6 of 25
Quote:

Originally Posted by wookumus View Post
 

And then, I checked my IRA account one day to find that it was half what it used to be…confronted DH who admitted that he had made a very stupid move with both our IRA’s and his day-trading account and lost about $50k.


How was he able to draw from your IRA?

post #7 of 25

If he stole half your IRA he could face criminal charges, no?  Can you press charges?  If you are concerned about custody and having to pay him alimony the fact that he has stolen from you would work against him.

post #8 of 25

oh man, I agree that he needs to be cut off from joint accounts... and the counseling.  Sounds like maybe he has some twist on a gambling problem. 

post #9 of 25

I don't view his schemes as "something for nothing" because they usually involve a business. Day-trading...eh, I'd do it if DH were okay with it. I don't think that it's wrong or bad, but it sounds like your husband in particular has a problem with it, kind of like a glass of wine at dinner is okay but alcoholics can't do that. So, yeah, you need to cut off access to money for him to gamble it away. He cannot handle it.

 

I agree with a pp that if you are staying only because you're worried about your son, then you could file charges against him for taking money from your IRA. (How did he do that? We've never pulled from retirement accounts, but I've always assumed that you would have to do it.)

 

In general, having an entrepreneurial mindset isn't a terrible thing. It's just that your husband doesn't have a realistic idea of what that means - and doesn't consult with you before making financial decisions.

post #10 of 25

I agree with the others.  He should not have access to the money you bring in.  He should not have access to your IRA.  He should not have access to anything right now.  He has proven himself untrustworthy when it comes to managing finances jointly (which means that you make decisions together).  I wouldn't even give him an allowance at this point.  If there is only enough money for bills then there is no money for daytrading or investing otherwise.  Right now he is mowing down your boundaries and injuring your life together.  It's time for you to find where your personal boundaries are and enforce them.  If he wants to day trade then that's fine, but it has to be done with money that he makes on his own or with money that you two have jointly decided to invest. 

 

Also, I know you mention about refusing to work part-time, but is this really feasible right now?  What about perhaps exploring different family dynamics?  Perhaps you could work full-time and your DH could be a SAHD?  That way your son would have someone that loves him caring for him and being there for him and you two wouldn't have so many worries about money.  I think before any of this though, you really need to get some couple's counseling, as well as counseling seperately.  I don't particularly care for working full-time.  In fact I hate it, but I realize that DH is much happier and our life is much more stable with me working and him staying at home.  

post #11 of 25
Thread Starter 

Thank you all for taking the time to read my post and respond, I will write more later today.

post #12 of 25

wow, yeah the IRA is huge. i'd be furious. you need your own account. he needs a real job, dishwasher/fast food. anything.

post #13 of 25

Yeah, I read through the whole thing and couldn't just click backwards.  Ugh, you've got a situation on your plate, that's for sure.  :(
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybunmom View Post

So that would be my big idea - counseling.  If the two of you are incapable of a peaceful co-existence, then again, counseling, marriage counseling with a professional trained to deal with the specific issues that you each bring individually to the table and therefore are present in your marriage.

This, for sure.

Honestly, what struck me in the whole thing described above, is that he's always (always!) looking for the quick buck. 
I have a relative like that.  It... doesn't work out.  Unless you count retiring in your Volvo and camping in the mountains retirement.  Sigh. 

It takes time and patience to win the race - methodical savings and planning for the future will usually result in (slow, but) steady gains.  Was it fun paying off credit cards and sticking to a strict budget?  No.  Was it worth it to have that debt gone forever?  Heck yeah.  Is it going to be just as fun buckling down to get rid of student loans?  Not really, but that's one nice noose to get rid of.  :D  Until you're both truly on the same page, it's very much going to be a struggle.  :(

post #14 of 25
Wow, big hugs, I am so sorry!! I don't understand why your husband refuses to look for a REAL job and just keeps coming up with "ideas" or schemes, basically. It seems he is looking for an easy way out, instead of making an honest living. Since you asked for advice, this is what I would do. RUN, not walk, to the nearest bank and open your OWN account in your own name and have your money direct deposited in there. If you pay all the bills from your income, then pay the bills from there and try to save (if you can). Completely take over the finances. Have him taken off of your 401k account, if he is on it, so he cannot touch it. If the relationship is this bad (and you don't want to be with him anymore), then I would also file for divorce, or kick him out, or get your own apartment with DS leaving him the house but not paying on it (since your credit is already ruined). I don't know how that would work, but if you had an apartment in your own name, then you could start to rebuild your credit slowly. He may be a good house keeper but he is a terrible provider and husband and frankly a crap father for putting his son in this predicament. I'de kick him to the curb. I think on your own you can rebuild your credit and start a better life for DS. You may have to work more (can you do at least one more shift) but in the long run will be better off. Yes he needs his mom but he needs food, too. If you move out, apply for assistance in the form of WIC, food stamps, medicaid, whatever you can to help you get by. Can you move in with family to help you save up some money?


Also, I'm not so sure the courts would give him custody, courts always favor the mother. Besides, that makes no sense that he would get custody when he doesn't work! There is no way you would not get custody. You could always try to find a free lawyer or legal advice on the matter. Here is a forum you could ask, too. http://forum.freeadvice.com/ - there is a divorce section.

So sorry you are going through this, hugs!!!!
post #15 of 25

If you think that divorce is someplace that this seriously might go (whether instigated by you or him), I would never agree to having him become a full-time SAHD right now.  Also, if your current work is sufficient to cover expenses, I would be extremely reluctant to increase to full time work now. 

 

In fact, I would be doing all I could to document that your and his intentions throughout the marriage were for him to continue to work full time, that your current expectations are that he work, and that you have never consented to him being a SAHD (only that the bankruptcy/his unemployment forced the situation to occur).

 

I'd make sure that I took my child to all his doctor appointments, and do my best to schedule playdates or other activities (like Gymboree, swim lessons, whatever you participate in) during times when I was available to take him.  I would do my best so that third parties saw me as engaged on a primary level with my child despite being the primary breadwinner.

 

Obviously, if you get in a better place with him eventually, perhaps returning to full time work with him as a SAHD is really your best option, but that is only once the concern about divorce has been rectified.

post #16 of 25



Wow, good points.  I hadn't even thought about it from that angle.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane91 View Post

If you think that divorce is someplace that this seriously might go (whether instigated by you or him), I would never agree to having him become a full-time SAHD right now.  Also, if your current work is sufficient to cover expenses, I would be extremely reluctant to increase to full time work now. 

 

In fact, I would be doing all I could to document that your and his intentions throughout the marriage were for him to continue to work full time, that your current expectations are that he work, and that you have never consented to him being a SAHD (only that the bankruptcy/his unemployment forced the situation to occur).

 

I'd make sure that I took my child to all his doctor appointments, and do my best to schedule playdates or other activities (like Gymboree, swim lessons, whatever you participate in) during times when I was available to take him.  I would do my best so that third parties saw me as engaged on a primary level with my child despite being the primary breadwinner.

 

Obviously, if you get in a better place with him eventually, perhaps returning to full time work with him as a SAHD is really your best option, but that is only once the concern about divorce has been rectified.

post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juvysen View Post

oh man, I agree that he needs to be cut off from joint accounts... and the counseling.  Sounds like maybe he has some twist on a gambling problem. 



 ITA

I also think he has sold you a story on how day trading is a business/job.  Daytrading is highly speculative in nature, and honestly I can not see the difference between blowing it on poker or a sports bookie.  Really the only "rule"  to daytrading is don't daytrade anything you aren't prepared to lose.

 

post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlBoyGirl View Post

Have him taken off of your 401k account, if he is on it, so he cannot touch it.


There's no such thing as a joint 401(k)/403(b)/IRA. Absent a power of attorney, he would have had to fake the credentials for access as it is.

post #19 of 25

My dh and I had similar financial issues in the past.  I don't want to go into the details here, but the hardest thing for me was the violation of the trust.  It's been almost 3 years.  Our finances are totally in my hands now and he has been completely upfront in that time.  We went to counseling.  But once the trust is destroyed, I don't know if it ever comes back.  And I can't help feeling like "Well, if he lied about that one thing, what's to keep him from lying about everything else?" 

 

So, just wanted to say, I know how hard this is.  I would give yourself permission to feel the anger and hurt.  I agree with all the previous posters who said you need to protect your own financial security by taking control of your finances.  And I strongly recommend counseling--even though it probably feels like you can't afford it.  It really helped us both see what our money 'issues' were and where they came from.

 

Good luck,

J

post #20 of 25
Thread Starter 

Lots of really great advice from all of you, thank you so much.  It makes me feel very fortunate that complete strangers are willing to offer their insights.  In the past few days, we started moving towards some positive changes.  Neither of us want divorce, primarily because we both still care a lot about each other but also because the hassle doesn't seem worth it...clearly we are not at that point and hopefully never will be.  That being said, I am taking care of financial responsibilities that I neglected to "oversee" because I really shouldn't have had to but he has agreed to stop "playing" with our money.  That being said, I made a huge mistake when I agreed to let him day-trade and manage our IRA's but do still feel deceived about what he ended up doing without my consent or knowledge.  I don't blame myself for his bad choices but I have a record of buying into his plans and it has to stop and is stopping.  We are moving our remaining funds into a savings account, the IRA's are currently in cash-only status and he is looking for jobs and has submitted his resume for several positions.  We are very fortunate that I make pretty good money working part-time but I just flat-out refuse to be away from DS any more until possibly when he is in school.  Even if DH finds something basic, it will help cover some important monthly cost for our household.

 

I also strongly agree that we need counseling.  We're past the point of finger-pointing, blame, etc. but we clearly have a destructive relationship when it comes to finances and it is now negatively impacting our physical and emotional relationship.  And even though we are making changes, I will have to find a way to forgive him and not hold this particular mistake over his head for the rest of our lives.  The trust issue, as noted above, is huge and difficult to manage... 

 

On that note, despite being a health professional, I do not have a high level of trust in a much of our health-care system and I am worried about finding a "quack" who just wastes our time and money.  For anyone who has gone the counseling route, how did you find someone good??

 

thank you again!!!!!!!!!!!!

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