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How getting measles this week has made this non-vaxer think hard. - Page 4

post #61 of 104

Typhus & Scarlet Fever (2 diseases that there are no vaccines for to date) declined drastically without vaccines.  Why is that?  The same reasons that many other "VPD" dramatically declined before vaccines..... improved nutrition, sanitation & cleaner drinking water.  Before you start stating how many lives have been saved by vaccines, you need to look at the history of these diseases & see that WAY BEFORE vaccines ever came on the scene, "VPD"s dramatically decreased &  I mean dramatically.  The reasons I mentioned earlier have way more to do with saving lives then vaccines do & to my knowledge have no adverse effects.  You cannot compare diseases in the US & 3rd world countries....I think someone referred to it before as comparing apples & toothpaste.  I would bet money that if the same advances in nutrition, access to clean drinking water & improved sanitation would result in the same reduction in VPD & other diseases.  Until those things happen, vaccines may be the best solution for people in those countries although I have concerns about the damage vaccines do to their immune systems.

 

I am sorry for anyone who has lost a child to a VPD or any other disease for that matter.  I am also very sorry for all of the vaccine related injuries to children.  Personally, my grandparents (in their 80s) can't recall anyone who died from a "VPD".  My Aunt is 60 & pretty much all of her friends had measles, rubella, mumps, chicken pox, etc & she knows of no one that died or suffered permanent damage.  Polio is a whole other story.  Then again there is strong evidence that the Polio epidemic wasn't really Polio & was a form a meningitis.  Anecdotal "evidence" that feels relevant in your decision-making process is fine, but you cannot use it to make broad-reaching statements about vaccines & "VPDs".

 

Saying "shame on you" to parents who don't read the vax inserts shows a lack of compassion & empathy IMO.  Parents are not to blame for vaccine-related injuries.  Most parents trust that their providers are offering something safe to their children & don't question everything like I & many other parents do.  Providers should be just as responsible, if not more, for discussing the risks with parents instead of pushing them as being 100% safe & effective as is typically done.  Doctors are equally if not more responsible for reporting to VAERS but many do not wish to do so.  As for vaccine injuries happening to a small percentage of people, that is just flat-out wrong.  VAERS is about 10% of the total estimated negative outcomes.  The actual #s reported are significant & when you multiply it by 10, it goes beyond significant & moves into horrifying.

 

I see a pattern in this thread as I do in the Vax argument in general...those who are anti-vax (or selectively vax) are far better educated on the facts about vaccines than those who are pro-vax.  The drug companies rely heavily on evoking an emotional response from people & scaring them into vaxing.  I have done countless hours of research on "VPDs", their history, the vaccines themselves and so on.  IMO In the US & other developed countries, extended breastfeeding, proper nutrition, an intact immune system are the best defenses against disease.  The chances of being hospitalized or dying from a "VPD" today is incredibly rare while having a vaccine injury is not rare at all.


Edited by awallrising - 6/13/11 at 6:48am
post #62 of 104

actually, Scarlet Fever is just strep with a rash infection. Antibiotics is probably the reason we don't see it that often.  it really isn't a big deal cause we have antibiotics.

 

and Typhus is caused by Lice, so yes, proper hygiene, less crowded living conditions and access to insecticide is probably what helped bring that down.

 

my dh grew up in Peru and his mother lost 3 children due to VPD, everyone in his generation lost sibs because of VPDs.  there has not been ANY change in terms of access to drinking water (you still need to boil it) or even most medical clinics (his family regularly sends down meds from here), but the deaths of children have decreased dramatically due to vaccines.  

post #63 of 104

and if it was simply just proper hygiene, why do we see more VPDs showing up lately? are people suddenly living in filthy conditions? why is whooping cough back in california? is it because everyone there is skipping their veggies and not washing hands?

post #64 of 104

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by raelize View Post

and if it was simply just proper hygiene, why do we see more VPDs showing up lately? are people suddenly living in filthy conditions? why is whooping cough back in california? is it because everyone there is skipping their veggies and not washing hands?

 

Some diseases, particularly whooping cough, have a natural tendency to cycle every 2 to 5 years or so, so vaccines or not (particularly since vaccines are not nearly as effective as they claim), you're always going to see them reemerge. The whooping cough vaccine doesn't even prevent transmission of the disease so it's really not a good case for your argument.

post #65 of 104

double post

post #66 of 104

raelize- scarlet fever declined way before antibiotics.  and you can't accurately compare Peru to the US.  I am not talking about hygiene in the hands washing sense, nor was I referring to one disease or small outbreaks.  Do you have any idea how poorly sewage was handled in the past?  or how contaminated drinking water was?  2 reasons why you can't compare the US & other less developed countries.  Again, if you were to look at the history of these diseases in the US & would think in broader terms, you would see that they dramatically declined before vaccines ever came into being.  Whatever the reason for that, the facts are the facts.  Most, if not all, VPDs declined way before vaccines came into use (like many decades).  How does a pro-vaxer explain that?  Intentionally oversimplifying my argument doesn't change the facts & comparing VPDs in the US & other countries is not an apples to apples comparison.

 

As SilverMoon010 mentions- The pertussis vaccine is only designed to prevent clinical cases, which means you can still contract a subclinical case & spread the disease (that's info straight from the vax companies too).  Besides the fact that this particular vaccine has a low efficacy.  And Pertussis is cyclical.  Nearly all of the infants that died in the Cal epidemic were in Latino populations (who are known to vaccinate) but there may have been some cultural influences that affected their outcomes.  Those children could easily have been exposed to vaccinated family members who contracted a subclinical case & didn't realize they had whooping cough b/c it lacked the classic whopping cough symptoms & b/c they thought they were protected by the vaccine.

post #67 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by awallrising View Post

raelize- scarlet fever declined way before antibiotics.  and you can't accurately compare Peru to the US.  I am not talking about hygiene in the hands washing sense, nor was I referring to one disease or small outbreaks.  Do you have any idea how poorly sewage was handled in the past?  or how contaminated drinking water was?  2 reasons why you can't compare the US & other less developed countries.  Again, if you were to look at the history of these diseases in the US & would think in broader terms, you would see that they dramatically declined before vaccines ever came into being.  Whatever the reason for that, the facts are the facts.  Most, if not all, VPDs declined way before vaccines came into use (like many decades).  How does a pro-vaxer explain that?  Intentionally oversimplifying my argument doesn't change the facts & comparing VPDs in the US & other countries is not an apples to apples comparison.


This is not true.  Death rates did indeed decline due to such reasons as better food availability, better living conditions,  and better medicine and better medical care.  Measles, for instance, only kills or so for each thousand cases in the developed world while it still kills as many as one in ten cases in the areas of extreme poverty, all due to living conditions.  Also, some diseases which are spread by contaminated water or food or insect vectors also really did decline due to water treatment/modern sanitation, clean food, and pest control.  

 

But many for many vaccine preventable diseases such as measles, mumps, chickenpox, rubella, etc. which spread directly from person to person rather than by insect/bad water there is only so much handwashing and washing desks at school etc. can do to prevent it.  These diseases did not decline in incidence prior to vaccine.  And while they were much less deadly than they could be thanks to improved living conditions, one or so out of each thousand kids dead to measles if we went back to the days when practically all kids got it by age ten would still come to an awfully high total.  Even a couple hundred deaths to chickenpox in the US each year is enough to be worth trying to prevent.  And that is just considering deaths, not complications such as encephalitis, blindness, permanent scars especially on the face, sterility, lung damage, etc 

 

post #68 of 104

 


Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

 

I grieve for the lack of natural immunity that lasts a lifetime in our present society.  There will be a health crisis in this respect in the future.

 


I agree.  I think the continuation of suppression of natural immunity over the years is going to bite us in the arse in the future.  I think vaccinating for every little thing is one of those things that people think is a great idea at the time but I do think down the road this will create issues when no one has any natural immunity to ANYTHING.  I believe there will be consequences.....but then again....I'm sure they'll have a vaccine for whatever the consequence is anywayeyesroll.gif  Kind of like the issue with antibiotics and their overuse, creating antibiotic-resistant superbugs. (Aren't they working on a vaccine for that? Covering the issue with a Band-Aid with yet another form of overused medical intervention).  I feel vaccines and their overuse are going to certainly present problems down the road regarding a health crisis of some sort.

 

While I can understand that people have the desire to vaccinate for some things, I can't understand the need for the vaccination schedule today.

post #69 of 104



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pers View Post




This is not true.  Death rates did indeed decline due to such reasons as better food availability, better living conditions,  and better medicine and better medical care.  Measles, for instance, only kills or so for each thousand cases in the developed world while it still kills as many as one in ten cases in the areas of extreme poverty, all due to living conditions.  Also, some diseases which are spread by contaminated water or food or insect vectors also really did decline due to water treatment/modern sanitation, clean food, and pest control.  

 

But many for many vaccine preventable diseases such as measles, mumps, chickenpox, rubella, etc. which spread directly from person to person rather than by insect/bad water there is only so much handwashing and washing desks at school etc. can do to prevent it.  These diseases did not decline in incidence prior to vaccine.  And while they were much less deadly than they could be thanks to improved living conditions, one or so out of each thousand kids dead to measles if we went back to the days when practically all kids got it by age ten would still come to an awfully high total.  Even a couple hundred deaths to chickenpox in the US each year is enough to be worth trying to prevent.  And that is just considering deaths, not complications such as encephalitis, blindness, permanent scars especially on the face, sterility, lung damage, etc 

 


 

I thought this was an interesting and relevant paper.

 

http://www.ppge.ufrgs.br/giacomo/arquivos/eco02072/mckinlay-mckinlay-1977.pdf
 

 

post #70 of 104

Sorry I was wrong about cases not decreasing....Measles mumps & rubella deaths did decline before vaccines (yes, cases did not... but without a death or other negative outcomes the # of cases doesn't warrant me vax'ing my kid).  If you happen to be that 1 in 1000 child that dies it's tragic, but it doesn't justify injuring thousands upon thousands of children with vaccines.  With all of these alleged deaths from CP, measles, etc. do we know of any other factors that caused the death of these children?  Like with H1N1, nearly all of the children that were said to die from H1N1 actually had Staph in their lungs which is really caused their deaths, not the H1N1 virus itself.  I know it happens, but deaths from these childhood "VPD"s are rare as are hospitalizations even though the powers that be try to make it seem more than it really is to keep us all scared.  Statistics regarding outcomes are often manipulated to make VPDs & vaccines appear the way Big Pharma & their lackeys want them to appear.

 

I agree with SilverMoon010 once again...even if you can make a case for individual vaccines, the current AAP vaccine schedule is extremely aggressive (more so than any other country in the world) & IMO is playing a huge role in vaccine injuries.  We vaccinate the most & have the highest rates of autism, not to mention all of the other disorders that vaccines probably cause.  You might be able to convince me of the value of certain vaccines given judiciously, but you will never convince me that a newborn needs a Hep B vaccine, that a 2 mth old needs 8 vaccines in one sitting & that children by the age of 2 need dozens of vaccines.

 

Vaccines are a multi-billion dollar industry.  Vax makers (& the FDA & CDC who get a lot of funding from them) have a lot of reasons to keep us misinformed & scared.....including trying to demonize non-vax'ing parents.  I pray that the philosophical exemption in PA remains in tact so I can protect my children.


Edited by awallrising - 6/14/11 at 11:27am
post #71 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by awallrising View Post

raelize- scarlet fever declined way before antibiotics.  and you can't accurately compare Peru to the US.  I am not talking about hygiene in the hands washing sense, nor was I referring to one disease or small outbreaks.  Do you have any idea how poorly sewage was handled in the past?  or how contaminated drinking water was?  2 reasons why you can't compare the US & other less developed countries.  Again, if you were to look at the history of these diseases in the US & would think in broader terms, you would see that they dramatically declined before vaccines ever came into being.  Whatever the reason for that, the facts are the facts.  Most, if not all, VPDs declined way before vaccines came into use (like many decades).  How does a pro-vaxer explain that?  Intentionally oversimplifying my argument doesn't change the facts & comparing VPDs in the US & other countries is not an apples to apples comparison.

 

As SilverMoon010 mentions- The pertussis vaccine is only designed to prevent clinical cases, which means you can still contract a subclinical case & spread the disease (that's info straight from the vax companies too).  Besides the fact that this particular vaccine has a low efficacy.  And Pertussis is cyclical.  Nearly all of the infants that died in the Cal epidemic were in Latino populations (who are known to vaccinate) but there may have been some cultural influences that affected their outcomes.  Those children could easily have been exposed to vaccinated family members who contracted a subclinical case & didn't realize they had whooping cough b/c it lacked the classic whopping cough symptoms & b/c they thought they were protected by the vaccine.

i am not trying to compare the US and Peru.  i was comparing Peru before widespread use of vax (which is only in the last 20 years or so) and Peru post widespread use of vax. my point is that if it was only hygiene and better water treatment, etc, and nothing to do with vaxes then you would not see the large decrease of childhood deaths and disabilities in third world countries as you have seen because in most third world countries their health and welfare infrastructure (water treatment, food regulation) has not been improved.  

if you look at UN data, most third world countries have seen significant drop offs in death and injury due to VPD once vaxes are used widely.  and now you can also see in some African and South East Asian countries increases in Polio and other VPD because people are starting to mistrust vaxes and refusing them.  POlio was almost wiped out in Indonesia but it is back because of vaccine fears.  In France this year they are having measles outbreaks because of vaccine refusals.  England has also had this problem.

Diseases like Cholera and other water born illness have definately dropped mainly because of better water treatment, but others have nothing to do with water treatment because they are not water born illness.

where is the data that thousands of children have been injured by vaxes? is it the VAERS? because that is a passive data collection. no one actually verifies any of those data points.  i could claim that my dd1's difficult labor was because of my vaccine injury and no one would remove that from the database or verify it. so it is not a database that can be actually used to calculate numbers of injured or types of injuries.
 

 

post #72 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by raelize View Post



i am not trying to compare the US and Peru.  i was comparing Peru before widespread use of vax (which is only in the last 20 years or so) and Peru post widespread use of vax. my point is that if it was only hygiene and better water treatment, etc, and nothing to do with vaxes then you would not see the large decrease of childhood deaths and disabilities in third world countries as you have seen because in most third world countries their health and welfare infrastructure (water treatment, food regulation) has not been improved.  

if you look at UN data, most third world countries have seen significant drop offs in death and injury due to VPD once vaxes are used widely.  and now you can also see in some African and South East Asian countries increases in Polio and other VPD because people are starting to mistrust vaxes and refusing them.  POlio was almost wiped out in Indonesia but it is back because of vaccine fears.  In France this year they are having measles outbreaks because of vaccine refusals.  England has also had this problem.

Diseases like Cholera and other water born illness have definately dropped mainly because of better water treatment, but others have nothing to do with water treatment because they are not water born illness.

where is the data that thousands of children have been injured by vaxes? is it the VAERS? because that is a passive data collection. no one actually verifies any of those data points.  i could claim that my dd1's difficult labor was because of my vaccine injury and no one would remove that from the database or verify it. so it is not a database that can be actually used to calculate numbers of injured or types of injuries.
 

 


http://www.sify.com/news/polio-vaccines-may-have-lost-efficacy-in-pakistan-news-international-kmwrEgjdfbe.html

 

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-08-25/lucknow/28299831_1_measles-vaccine-probe-team-csmmu

 

To start.

 

post #73 of 104


Scarlet fever is strep. The incidence is still just as high, the bacteria just causes a more mild disease than it used to.

 

The incidence of measles in the third world is currently plummeting, due to a huge push for vaccines, not because of any increase in hygiene.

post #74 of 104

Neither of these articles have anything to do with what i was talking about.  they are both about how the people (in India and Pakistan) who administer the vaxes don't actually know how to administer them or to store them.  that doesn't say anything about the vaccines themselves. its says that in India and Pakistan they need to do a better job training their workers.
 

 

post #75 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by raelize View Post



Neither of these articles have anything to do with what i was talking about.  they are both about how the people (in India and Pakistan) who administer the vaxes don't actually know how to administer them or to store them.  that doesn't say anything about the vaccines themselves. its says that in India and Pakistan they need to do a better job training their workers.
 

 


headscratch.gif

 

Because that kind of thing could NEVER happen in the perfect U.S.?

 

You talk about VAERS as an unreliable tool, but it's the only one we have.  However, the vaccine product inserts include the information about potential reactions, up to and including death.

 

When I read stories from other mothers about their children's severe and life-changing vaccine reactions, I listen and have no reason to doubt them.  Yes, children are getting injured by vaccines.  Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't happening.  The U.S. has paid out BILLIONS of dollars in vaccine injury compensation, and that represents but a tiny fraction of the actual cases.

 

post #76 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post




headscratch.gif

 

Because that kind of thing could NEVER happen in the perfect U.S.?

 

You talk about VAERS as an unreliable tool, but it's the only one we have.  However, the vaccine product inserts include the information about potential reactions, up to and including death.

 

When I read stories from other mothers about their children's severe and life-changing vaccine reactions, I listen and have no reason to doubt them.  Yes, children are getting injured by vaccines.  Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't happening.  The U.S. has paid out BILLIONS of dollars in vaccine injury compensation, and that represents but a tiny fraction of the actual cases.

 


i never said that it couldn't happen in the US.  that wasn't my point of my post. you haven't answered that about the differences of rates of infection of VPD in third world countries. and i feel horrible for parents who have kids who have illnesses and disabilities. i have been in the ER with my own child when the doctors couldn't tell me what was wrong with them. i understand that. but, unfortunately, the plural of anecdotes does not equal data.  science is a great tool, and it is the only one we have.

 

post #77 of 104
Quote:

Well, you caught me.  Sarah and Amy are not real children; I made them both up.

 

 

SO, there are four pages of discussion based on a post by a person who just joined MDC and posts a story that is a lie?

 

I haven't been paying much attention here lately and I am hearing that things have been different.  Is this the kind of crap that is happening?  Is this ok?  Doesn't this piss anybody off?
 

 

post #78 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambivamom View Post

 

SO, there are four pages of discussion based on a post by a person who just joined MDC and posts a story that is a lie?

 

I haven't been paying much attention here lately and I am hearing that things have been different.  Is this the kind of crap that is happening?  Is this ok?  Doesn't this piss anybody off?

 

 

No, go back and read posts 33, 34, and 35 of this thread again. I'm the one who made Sarah and Amy up, not the OP, and I introduced them as follows: "Another example: Let's say there are two best friends Sarah and Amy."  They were part of an explanation of how herd immunity works, and were not intended to be proof that it actually does.  For that we'd need real world numbers rather than fictional children, but looking at vaccine and measles rates and their ups and downs over time in many countries provides plenty of evidence that it does for measles at least.  Another poster complained that my fictional children did not provide proof that vaccines could create herd immunity, and the "you caught" me bit you quoted was my admittedly somewhat snotty response to her.  All good now?
 

 

post #79 of 104

Lol Pers, I was just about to make a post in your defense (for once!)....ya beat me to it!  Even though we disagree about vaxxes, I want to support what I feel is right, and you were only making up children to demonstrate your point, not to fool anybody.

post #80 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post

 

I thought this was an interesting and relevant paper.

 

http://www.ppge.ufrgs.br/giacomo/arquivos/eco02072/mckinlay-mckinlay-1977.pdf
 

 


It is interesting, and I agree with some points - improved living conditions and food availability and such made a huge difference in mortality, and the decline in the death rate for measles for instance as a result of improved conditions and other factors dwarfs the decline due to the vaccine.  Not that that makes the vaccine pointless, while tens or hundreds of thousands wouldn't die each year of measles as they would if everyone in our huge population had them at some point, as was the norm before the vaccine, but measles still had the same death rate as it did a hundred years ago or so, but a few thousand or so could still be expected to die, and that's well enough to try to prevent.  And that's just considering death, not to mention the many other possible complications, or even the single mom who takes too much time off to care for a sick child and looses her job, putting her family on the street...

 

But overall, I have to say the paper seems quite poorly done.  The conclusion is that "medical measures [...] appear to have contributed little to the overall decline in mortality in the united states since about 1900," but the paper only looked at ten infectious diseases, though granted those diseases were major killers a hundred years or so ago.  Also, only one medical measure is considered for disease.  For instance, it evaluates the impact of medicine on diptheria mortality by comparing the decline in mortality before and after "toxoid, 1930," but the first toxoid was invented in the late 1800s, and, while far more dangerous than the modern one, was used in the US from the early 1900s, and the first diptheria vaccine was invented in 1914.  Also for polio only mentions the vaccine as a medical measure, so compares the mortality decline before and after the first vaccine came into widespread use.  It neglects to consider that very likely nearly all of the people stuck in iron lungs in hospitals because they couldn't breath on their own would have contributed to the death statistics had the iron lung not been invented in the late '20s.  

 

Rather than showing the importance of other factors such as nutrition, it just seems designed to make medicine come off looking as bad as possible.  

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