Do you let your kids win at games? Do you allow cheating? - Page 2

[Daffodil]

Originally Posted by oaktreemama 
If a child is so distraught at following the rules of a particular game that the answer is to allow him to cheat, then the game is too hard for him, or he is not tempermentally ready, or doesn't yet get the expectations of the game.

Well, yeah.  That's when I would allow cheating - when the kid isn't temperamentally or developmentally ready to play the game according to the rules.  I'm not sure it should even be called cheating if the kid wants to do something that isn't in the rules and I let him.  It's not like he tries to do it secretly and I pretend I didn't see it. 

[oaktreemama]

We always have a practice game for newbies-whether they be children or adults. The practice game gives you a chance to have do overs as the rules are learned. The other more experienced players will also give advice so the new learner gets some positive feedback on his moves.

But after that you learn from your mistakes-that's how you remember the rules. We like to play lots of card games in this family and enjoy boardgames as well. I think done properly game playing with family and friends is immensely beneficial to children-it helps them develop socially and learn to enjoy thinking things through.

Allowing the child to cheat so that he can win or save face is detrimental.

[BubbleMa]

Originally Posted by Daffodil 

Originally Posted by oaktreemama 
If a child is so distraught at following the rules of a particular game that the answer is to allow him to cheat, then the game is too hard for him, or he is not tempermentally ready, or doesn't yet get the expectations of the game.

Well, yeah.  That's when I would allow cheating - when the kid isn't temperamentally or developmentally ready to play the game according to the rules.  I'm not sure it should even be called cheating if the kid wants to do something that isn't in the rules and I let him.  It's not like he tries to do it secretly and I pretend I didn't see it. 

I see what you're saying, and I think that's okay...as long as everyone playing the game is on board with the revised rules.  It's not fair to bend the rules for one child and not the others though.

As for the child being discouraged by never winning a game, I don't find that to be true for us.  They win their fair share of games.  :)

[nola79]

No to both questions.

[Spring Lily]

Originally Posted by Daffodil 

; If the point is to have fun, why not let a young kid play in whatever way makes the game fun?  Insisting on adherence to the official rules at all times seems to me to be giving the wrong message.  It makes the game too important - it's not just something you're having fun with, it's an IMPORTANT CONTEST, and it's vital to make sure no one gets an unfair advantage, because winning (or losing) is a BIG DEAL.  By not caring if my kid takes back a bad move or spins again when he doesn't like what he got the first time, I'm setting a good example.  I'm showing that I don't care all that much about whether or not I win.
 

See, I think that isn't showing him that you don't care who wins. I think that is showing him that is is ok to change the rules so you can win. And if winning is important enough to change Rules for, then it must be a pretty big deal, right? You don't change other Rules at home or school, but you change them in the name of winning.

And the point of playing games is NOT just to have fun. From the kid's perspective, yes it is. But as adults we know it's much more.

It's better to enjoy the moment, the process of playing together, instead of the results. To me, allowing cheating or rule changing mid-game (unless it's a new rule everyone wants to follow for fun) is placing the focus on who is going to win.

[LaughingHyena]

We do sometimes make allowances for children being younger, for example giving them more time to complete a move, or suggestion why a move is a good/not so good choice and giving them an opportunity to change their mind. As a PP mentioned I don't think both kids are ready for the same games so this means we can play as a family without frustration. Pairing up the adults and children also happens and helps the kids learn strategies.

[lookatreestar]

this thread reminds me of how much i dislike games 

[bandgeek]

I don't allow cheating or made-up rules (unless all the players agree on the rules).  Sometimes I don't give it 100% just so DS has a chance to win more often, but I don't "let" him win, not blatantly.  He just turned 6 and he also gets upset sometimes when he loses but we're working on it.  I just explain that not everyone can win all of the time and with practice he'll win more.

[velochic]

No to both questions.  From the time we've been playing games, we've always made sure we mix up the games so that different people have different advantages and no single person wins all the time or loses all the time.  For example, we have one game called Huggermugger that we really enjoy, but it's an English language game.  Dh is not American, and he's at a distinct disadvantage to dd and me even though he has the Ph.D in computer science.  Games that require logic and strategy, he has a serious advantage, though.  Trivia, I have the advantage, and memory & drawing, dd has the advantage.  We also play games of pure dumb luck and those that use a bit of strategy with a bit of luck (card games, for example) where anybody can win.  Everyone gets a chance to win... fairly.  If rules have to be bent to accommodate a younger player, then they are probably too young to play the game.  If everyone playing agrees to a fun twist, then that's different.  I would never raise a child to think that cheating (even with adult family members) is okay or that they are entitled for ANY reason to unfair advantages.

[NicaG]

Okay, I'm starting to feel like everyone thinks I'm raising a sociopath.  Just to clarify, my ds doesn't insist on cheating, mostly he just likes to change the rules of games halfway through, but the rules change for everyone. 

I think all this has clarified a couple things for me:

-ds is very much a rule-follower at school, and he is happy to play board games at playdates or with our babysitter, and he follows the rules and doesn't get upset when others win.  I think part of what is going on is that he feels competitive with dh and me, and winning games (by whatever means necessary) is a way for him to assert dominance sometimes in a low-stakes way

-I think we started games ( like Candyland) when ds was a little too young to follow rules and play a whole game, so we didn't focus much on the rules, we just played for fun and stopped when we got tired of playing, even if we hadn't finished.  Now that ds is old enough to follow game rules, we're having trouble adjusting to the idea that we don't just play fast and loose like we used to.

-I think ds finds a lot of games boring, and changing rules makes the games more interesting for him.  He has recently started learning chess, and he has no interest in changing the rules and has no problem with other people winning--he seems much more interested in seeing how strategy works on both sides of the game.

-Playing most board games is not something I enjoy, so I tend to tune out a little while we're playing, and I don't much care what ds does while we're playing.  Maybe I should care more. Maybe I need to either change my attitude or stop playing games with ds.

Thanks, all.

[DidiToo]

Originally Posted by NicaG 

Okay, I'm starting to feel like everyone thinks I'm raising a sociopath.  Just to clarify, my ds doesn't insist on cheating, mostly he just likes to change the rules of games halfway through, but the rules change for everyone. 

I think all this has clarified a couple things for me:

-ds is very much a rule-follower at school, and he is happy to play board games at playdates or with our babysitter, and he follows the rules and doesn't get upset when others win.  I think part of what is going on is that he feels competitive with dh and me, and winning games (by whatever means necessary) is a way for him to assert dominance sometimes in a low-stakes way

-I think we started games ( like Candyland) when ds was a little too young to follow rules and play a whole game, so we didn't focus much on the rules, we just played for fun and stopped when we got tired of playing, even if we hadn't finished.  Now that ds is old enough to follow game rules, we're having trouble adjusting to the idea that we don't just play fast and loose like we used to.

-I think ds finds a lot of games boring, and changing rules makes the games more interesting for him.  He has recently started learning chess, and he has no interest in changing the rules and has no problem with other people winning--he seems much more interested in seeing how strategy works on both sides of the game.

-Playing most board games is not something I enjoy, so I tend to tune out a little while we're playing, and I don't much care what ds does while we're playing.  Maybe I should care more. Maybe I need to either change my attitude or stop playing games with ds.

Thanks, all.

I also don't tend to take games all that seriously.  I mean, most times I've insisted on rules being followed, but I like for the games to be fun, too.   

When DS2 (3) and DS1 (6) play Memory, DS2 often gets so excited that he'll keep turning over cards to find his match.  Then DS1 wants to do this.  They think it is funny to watch me say, "Hey, you can't do that!"  When we count out our pairs, I will announce that DS2 has 8, DS1 has 7, I have 4...but that I'm the winner because I've disqualified them both for cheating.  We all then have a good laugh. 

Honestly, it does pay to have a sense of humor and perspective. 
 

[Owen'nZoe]

Originally Posted by DidiToo 

Originally Posted by amcal 

I never allow cheating.  But, like others, I do sometimes allow them to win.  Especially at games that require skill because as an adult, I have a lot more skill and experience at these games so, I'll always win.  But, in games of luck, I don't usually set it up so they win.  I think loosing teaches way more than winning. 

I remember my dad never allowed me to win at anything, ever...so I basically stopped playing chess against him.  It just wasn't enjoyable to have my butt handed to me again and again.  So, remembering this, I also will give my kids a frustration-break at games that involve a lot of skill.  Games that involve little skill, I play them straight.  And with games that involve memory, my kids will kick my butt with no assistance from me.  The acts of being pregnant, giving birth and experiencing post-baby sleep deprivation permanently impaired my memory. 
 

 I totally could have written this! It was awful and demoralizing, and he was so much better than I, I never really learned to get better at it either. I just became more and more discouraged.

I take the same approach you do. Memory Match - I'll sometimes flub a few to give the little ones a chance to beat me. My six year old can beat me fair and square, though, so I play my best against him. For other skilled games, like checkers or chess, I'll throw a game here and there to give them a chance. And for something lthat involves little skill, whoever wins, wins.

We don't allow cheating. If I catch it once, I give a reminder. If I catch it a second time, the game is over.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by lookatreestar 

this thread reminds me of how much i dislike games 

Seriously!   

Originally Posted by NicaG 

Okay, I'm starting to feel like everyone thinks I'm raising a sociopath.  Just to clarify, my ds doesn't insist on cheating, mostly he just likes to change the rules of games halfway through, but the rules change for everyone. 

I think all this has clarified a couple things for me:

-ds is very much a rule-follower at school, and he is happy to play board games at playdates or with our babysitter, and he follows the rules and doesn't get upset when others win.  I think part of what is going on is that he feels competitive with dh and me, and winning games (by whatever means necessary) is a way for him to assert dominance sometimes in a low-stakes way

-I think we started games ( like Candyland) when ds was a little too young to follow rules and play a whole game, so we didn't focus much on the rules, we just played for fun and stopped when we got tired of playing, even if we hadn't finished.  Now that ds is old enough to follow game rules, we're having trouble adjusting to the idea that we don't just play fast and loose like we used to.

-I think ds finds a lot of games boring, and changing rules makes the games more interesting for him.  He has recently started learning chess, and he has no interest in changing the rules and has no problem with other people winning--he seems much more interested in seeing how strategy works on both sides of the game.

-Playing most board games is not something I enjoy, so I tend to tune out a little while we're playing, and I don't much care what ds does while we're playing.  Maybe I should care more. Maybe I need to either change my attitude or stop playing games with ds.

Thanks, all.

You sound like you are doing great, then.  I can't believe how seriously people take this game playing.  If your ds plays well with others but wants to work some things out when playing with you, who cares if you don't? 

Originally Posted by DidiToo 

I also don't tend to take games all that seriously.  I mean, most times I've insisted on rules being followed, but I like for the games to be fun, too.   

When DS2 (3) and DS1 (6) play Memory, DS2 often gets so excited that he'll keep turning over cards to find his match.  Then DS1 wants to do this.  They think it is funny to watch me say, "Hey, you can't do that!"  When we count out our pairs, I will announce that DS2 has 8, DS1 has 7, I have 4...but that I'm the winner because I've disqualified them both for cheating.  We all then have a good laugh. 

Honestly, it does pay to have a sense of humor and perspective. 
 

Yes!  Humor and perspective, people, please!  

Ds was recently frustrated when he visited a friend with one of those LEGO games, the Harry Potter one.  His friend refused to let him check out the game and play it because he couldn't find the rules.  Ds said to me later "What's up with that?  We could have made some up and had fun."  I didn't really have a good answer beyond some people find following rules so important that they don't know when it isn't important and have no practice being flexible during those times...

[34me]

I think the info that he plays one way at home with mom and Dad and plays another way with peers changes the perspective a lot.  I stink at games so loose to my kids a lot, even when they were little so I have been a stickler for rules because then, I might win a few.  I would not have wanted my kiddos to cheat or change the rules so that they could win because I wouldn't want them doing it with their siblings or friends.  But if he gets that that part isn't socially acceptable - don't change a thing.

[Owen'nZoe]

Originally Posted by NicaG 

Okay, I'm starting to feel like everyone thinks I'm raising a sociopath.  Just to clarify, my ds doesn't insist on cheating, mostly he just likes to change the rules of games halfway through, but the rules change for everyone. 

I think all this has clarified a couple things for me:

-ds is very much a rule-follower at school, and he is happy to play board games at playdates or with our babysitter, and he follows the rules and doesn't get upset when others win.  I think part of what is going on is that he feels competitive with dh and me, and winning games (by whatever means necessary) is a way for him to assert dominance sometimes in a low-stakes way

-I think we started games ( like Candyland) when ds was a little too young to follow rules and play a whole game, so we didn't focus much on the rules, we just played for fun and stopped when we got tired of playing, even if we hadn't finished.  Now that ds is old enough to follow game rules, we're having trouble adjusting to the idea that we don't just play fast and loose like we used to.

-I think ds finds a lot of games boring, and changing rules makes the games more interesting for him.  He has recently started learning chess, and he has no interest in changing the rules and has no problem with other people winning--he seems much more interested in seeing how strategy works on both sides of the game.

-Playing most board games is not something I enjoy, so I tend to tune out a little while we're playing, and I don't much care what ds does while we're playing.  Maybe I should care more. Maybe I need to either change my attitude or stop playing games with ds.

Thanks, all.

Oh gosh, see, for me, it came down to a language issue. I wouldn't even consider this cheating at all! We change rules all the time, and make up new ways to play. I thought you were talking about one person really trying to be sneaky and pull a fast one on the other player (without that being part of the game). This just sounds fun. :)
 

[Grace and Granola]

I haven't read all the replies, so forgive me if I am repeating here.... my 5 year old was a terrible loser ever since we started playing games with him around age 4.  So much so that we didn't play games for a long time and I thought he would be better when he matured a bit.  Trying again around age 5, he wasn't any better at losing.  The thing that made him better at losing was practice.  he needed some practice at losing!  And some coaching on how to be gracious about it.  It also helped to play alot of games for a period of time, so that he could see that "you win some, you lose some."  If we played 10 games of candyland, he soon figured out that he would win about half of the games and his brother would win half.  Then it's ok to lose, because he knows he'll win one soon.

I don't find anything wrong with a mom letting her kid win or changing some rules every once in a while.  But you have to remember that they aren't always going to be playing games with YOU.  Though you might not mind that your kid changes rules and fudges his way to the finish line, those peers out there certainly will mind.

[ProtoLawyer]

If we're playing a game by the rules, then no cheating and no letting anyone win. If it's a game that, due to acquired skill or physical size, I am virtually guaranteed to win, I may not play my best, but I won't deliberately throw the game (I guess you can compare that to handicapping myself). As my stepdaughter is capable of beating me outright in most sports and also games like checkers and chess, this is not much of an issue anymore. We'll see what happens with my son.

However, occasionally we play wacky rules (Calvinball!), in which chase cheating and win-shifting is rampant. And, truth be told, more fun.

Oh, one big thing: I never EVER alter my play with Scrabble. I learned to play from my grandmother, who will kick anyone's butt several times over in Scrabble (she's 83). She never ever let me win or threw a move--the only age-related accommodation she made was that we could use dirty words once we were 14. She'd good-naturedly tell me what I did wrong in my moves. I never, ever beat her--until one day,  I did, and it was the best thing in the world, for both of us. (This sort of play is definitely a "know your kid" thing--some kids would use this sort of game play as an opportunity to learn and do better, and some would find it frustrating and like they were getting bullied, in which case, don't.)

[BunnySlippers]

We don't do cheating, unless we are getting bored of the game and get silly. It was a slightly hard concept for dd to grasp, but she gets why cheating at a game is pointless.

I rarely 'let' her win a game, but I don't play games where I have the unfair advantage and she is set up to loose based on her inexperience.  The only way I let her win, is if I hold myself back a bit. Sometimes I can see she is really trying, but stuck, so I give a bit.  Mostly, if she wins, she wins on her own.

I don't know what to do about a child who HATES loosing. I would eithe r stop playing games with that child or figure it out with them.

[MusicianDad]

I was reminded this morning, there is one game where we allow cheating... It's called "Cheat" though and the object is to get rid of all your cards first, lying where necessary to get it done.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

I have let my kids win -- if we're playing a game of skill and I will wipe up the board with them (let's face it, I will ALWAYS beat my 6 year old at Boggle), I will often not play as hard as I could sometimes. I try to let them win some of the time. Let's face it - it sucks to lose all the time.

We follow a similar philosophy for the same reasons. DH or I will win at Scrabble or chess. We're adults with a lot more experience in strategy and bigger vocabularies. We're more likely to let up on how competitively we'd play with other adults than to "allow" winning.

We don't allow anyone to win with games of luck. We just explain that winning is more about luck than skill, and they've both been able to accept that. (Plus, the same person won't always win or lose in those games, so it works out.)

Both DH & I are competitive, and we hope that our children are as well. I don't believe that you shouldn't care if you win or lose. If you're playing chess, you should care. Otherwise what's the point of playing? Yes, I do lose, but if I'm not even really invested in the outcome, then I don't get the purpose. That's what we teach our children. Winning can be enormously important to you, but you still should learn to lose gracefully. It's not as if the only people who can be good sports are people who don't care about winning.