I'd like to incorporate some "tiger mother" ideas

[Galatea]

Not the yelling or namecalling or no sleepovers.  Just the ideas of practice until mastery so that advanced ideas can be tackled.  We do Classical Method.  Wondering if anyone has ideas about how to incorporate some of Amy Chua's ideas?

I REALLY do not want this to devolve into a discussion of how I should not yell at my kids, etc.  No duh.  I want to seriously discuss the whys and hows of practice until mastery and the value of hard work and focus.

[Fillyjonk]

I am intrigued by this idea

don't think its our thing, we're pretty laid back, but always find different ideas interesting

[ambersrose]

well, if you are not going to yell or in some way push your authority on your child I would think that the way to encourage your child to work at something until it is mastered is to wait until the child shows a genuine interest in something.  Then they will have the desire to put some time and energy into it.  Then you can be supportive and encouraging and gently show them they can master anything they put time and energy into.  This will encourage them to do the same in more areas of their life.  I dont think the idea of working on something until it is mastered is a "tiger mom" exclusive idea, it is the method of how it is "taught" to the child that makes it "tiger". 

[mmmmochi]

I suppose I will not be popular, but though I do not think of myself as a `tiger mom`, however I do not accept shoddy work from my homeschooled children. My daughter is old enough (8) to correct ALL spelling mistakes, to rewrite as many times as it takes for the composition to be of acceptable quality with not too many erasures. Nothing goes into her folder which is not of the best quality and she would not want it to.

Today, she had to write a list of books she has enjoyed about famlies going from most to least favorite. The instructions were to underline all titles, use capital letters where appropriate, and also to give the authors. It took her 4 attempts to produce this without error and neat handwriting throughout.

Her compositions have become much much better since we have been working like this. She has improved in spelling and her test results are much better. The other difference is she is homeschooled and not at school anymore.

She enjoys working, and always tries to do her best and knows I will not accept less than this. It works for us, but I have to say though we get great results I do not enjoy pushing her like this. I feel that it is tough being her mother (who loves her) and her teacher who has a duty to get her to do her best and continue to improve.

At school she was allowed to make spelling mistakes without correction, and her handwriting was not an issue. They were very easy going.

As her result her spelling and handwriting were not great at all. Now she her handwriting is almost as skillful as mine, and her spelling much improved.

It has meant repetition and a lot of redoing of work for her.  I do NOT shout or run her down, let alone name call. I do however ask her if SHE thinks she has done her best and if she thinks anything could be better, and help her correct spelling mistakes.

[umsami]

Originally Posted by mmmmochi 

I suppose I will not be popular, but though I do not think of myself as a `tiger mom`, however I do not accept shoddy work from my homeschooled children. My daughter is old enough (8) to correct ALL spelling mistakes, to rewrite as many times as it takes for the composition to be of acceptable quality with not too many erasures. Nothing goes into her folder which is not of the best quality and she would not want it to.

Today, she had to write a list of books she has enjoyed about famlies going from most to least favorite. The instructions were to underline all titles, use capital letters where appropriate, and also to give the authors. It took her 4 attempts to produce this without error and neat handwriting throughout.

Her compositions have become much much better since we have been working like this. She has improved in spelling and her test results are much better. The other difference is she is homeschooled and not at school anymore.

She enjoys working, and always tries to do her best and knows I will not accept less than this. It works for us, but I have to say though we get great results I do not enjoy pushing her like this. I feel that it is tough being her mother (who loves her) and her teacher who has a duty to get her to do her best and continue to improve.

At school she was allowed to make spelling mistakes without correction, and her handwriting was not an issue. They were very easy going.

As her result her spelling and handwriting were not great at all. Now she her handwriting is almost as skillful as mine, and her spelling much improved.

It has meant repetition and a lot of redoing of work for her.  I do NOT shout or run her down, let alone name call. I do however ask her if SHE thinks she has done her best and if she thinks anything could be better, and help her correct spelling mistakes.

mmmmochi--we do something similar with DS1.  We ask if this is his best, and have a certain level to which his work must meet.  I've noticed that some days he'll rush through things in order to go play or whatever--and on those occasions, I will make him do it over.  Handwriting must be of a certain level of neatness.  For spelling, I do have him look up words he misspelled in his dictionary, etc.

Re: the OP--I'm interested to see what you find.  I do have friends who were very tiger Mom in their raising of their kids.  For example, the kids did not get allowance at all--all spending money for the term was dependent on grades, and their kids only got so much for all As, and nothing after that.  (I think there might have been an allowance for one B--but I'm not sure.)  Their "jobs" were to be students, nothing else.  For me, I would really like my kids to have a good work ethic--and to realize that they need to work on the difficult things, and not just give up or want things to be easy.  I'm not sure how to get there, though. :)  

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by mmmmochi 

I suppose I will not be popular, but though I do not think of myself as a `tiger mom`, however I do not accept shoddy work from my homeschooled children. My daughter is old enough (8) to correct ALL spelling mistakes, to rewrite as many times as it takes for the composition to be of acceptable quality with not too many erasures. Nothing goes into her folder which is not of the best quality and she would not want it to.

Today, she had to write a list of books she has enjoyed about famlies going from most to least favorite. The instructions were to underline all titles, use capital letters where appropriate, and also to give the authors. It took her 4 attempts to produce this without error and neat handwriting throughout.

Her compositions have become much much better since we have been working like this. She has improved in spelling and her test results are much better. The other difference is she is homeschooled and not at school anymore.

She enjoys working, and always tries to do her best and knows I will not accept less than this. It works for us, but I have to say though we get great results I do not enjoy pushing her like this. I feel that it is tough being her mother (who loves her) and her teacher who has a duty to get her to do her best and continue to improve.

At school she was allowed to make spelling mistakes without correction, and her handwriting was not an issue. They were very easy going.

As her result her spelling and handwriting were not great at all. Now she her handwriting is almost as skillful as mine, and her spelling much improved.

It has meant repetition and a lot of redoing of work for her.  I do NOT shout or run her down, let alone name call. I do however ask her if SHE thinks she has done her best and if she thinks anything could be better, and help her correct spelling mistakes.

I think this seems like a good idea.  I, too, struggle with being his mom and expecting the best out of him.  It is easier for me to do it when it comes to things like discipline or manners, but doing it for school is still difficult.

[SpiderMum]

I just object to the idea that you must master something before you're able to enjoy it.  If that were true, how do I enjoy any of my many hobbies?  I suck at half of them...but I still enjoy them.

[Galatea]

Maybe not master, but they do become more fun as you get better.  Once you have done the learning curve a few times, you learn that learning and mastery are fun, not a chore.

[joensally]

Have you seen this NY Times article? 

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/the-economics-of-tiger-parenting/

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by joensally 

Have you seen this NY Times article? 

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/the-economics-of-tiger-parenting/

Thanks - that was interesting!  Makes me think I should not have dropped out of Yale Law - I'd have had so much time to write about parenting!!!

[pigpokey]

Try this for ideas http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/ 

I have swim team, gymnastics team, dance company, etc. coaches to urge my kids to practice to mastery.  Of course they do not call them names or push them down in splits, etc.  But I think in the US we think these activities show kids that to get the skills you log the hours. 

[frugalmum]

Hmmmm.... well some of her ideas are good (like no TV and VG), but I think it's dangerous to place huge expectations on your kids and to be too controlling.  For instance I don't understand why she wouldn't allow her daughters to pick their own instruments, or how she could demand they always be top in their class.  But on the other hand I think it's ok to "demand" mastery of certain skills like math, grammar etc..  It's a fine line between leadership and control.  So maybe moderation is the key-- pick your battles.  Attachment parents are so terrified of emotionally damaging their children that they don't realize it sometimes is ok to stick to your guns despite a child's crying and whining over nothing more than not wanting to work.  Work is part of life-- hard work is part of life-- and it always will be.

[Brisen]

I think pigpokey makes a great point.  Coaching is the kind of area where encouraging towards mastery works well.  Also, kids probably see other kids up close who are working or have mastered the skills they're working on.  And they usually get opportunities to 'show off' the fruits of their labours, like recitals or competitions.  Schoolwork doesn't really work the same way, unless you set it up specifically that way.

I think a big key here is for the kids to see you pushing yourself the way you want them to push themselves.  "Be type A with yourself, type B with your kids' is a phrase I like.  They will be more likely to work towards mastery if they see others in their life doing the same.  So if you used to play the piano or wish you did but bemoan your lack of talent or time to practice, that's what they'll learn.  If you have your own interests and talents that you are working on, or skills you are pushing yourself to master, or if you are training towards, say, being able to run or swim a certain distance, or whatever, they will be more likely to learn to push themselves that way.

And I don't think this kind of coaching/pushing/encouraging usually works for kids younger than, say, teenagers.  When it does, I think it is because the child is motivated and talented.  It might seem like it's the parents being able to motivate them the right way, but I really don't think it works with every kid.  Only kids who are ready for that at a young age.  It might be nice for the child to be 'ahead of the game' with, say, proficiency on the piano, so they don't have as much slogging through the basics to do when they are older, but in the majority of cases, I think it's wasted time.  And likely to result in the child deciding that they hate the piano because they're being pushed or simply cannot reach that level of proficiency at that age.

I do like some of her points about having faith that your children can do things and not treating them like delicate sugar cookies that will crumble under the slightest pressure, but I don't agree with the obsession with excellence for such young kids.  Teens?  Yes, I think they can handle more pressure and higher expectations, when they show interest and after a more relaxed, playful childhood.

I don't know if this article has been posted here, but he makes some similar points about teaching math: it doesn't get you further ahead overall to be further ahead as a young child.

[Galatea]

Thanks for the links.  I'll read them shortly. 

Hmmmm.... well some of her ideas are good (like no TV and VG), but I think it's dangerous to place huge expectations on your kids and to be too controlling.  For instance I don't understand why she wouldn't allow her daughters to pick their own instruments, or how she could demand they always be top in their class.  But on the other hand I think it's ok to "demand" mastery of certain skills like math, grammar etc..  It's a fine line between leadership and control.  So maybe moderation is the key-- pick your battles.  Attachment parents are so terrified of emotionally damaging their children that they don't realize it sometimes is ok to stick to your guns despite a child's crying and whining over nothing more than not wanting to work.  Work is part of life-- hard work is part of life-- and it always will be.

I agree.

Today, I had to break in the middle of school b/c the baby needed me.  When it was time to go back and finish, ds1 was already tuned out.  He didn't want to complete the math chapter, but I knew it was easy review for him, so I made him do it.  He whined a bit, and then was done in 10 minutes.  He is fine now and no harm done.

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by Brisen 

I think a big key here is for the kids to see you pushing yourself the way you want them to push themselves.  "Be type A with yourself, type B with your kids' is a phrase I like.  They will be more likely to work towards mastery if they see others in their life doing the same.  So if you used to play the piano or wish you did but bemoan your lack of talent or time to practice, that's what they'll learn.  If you have your own interests and talents that you are working on, or skills you are pushing yourself to master, or if you are training towards, say, being able to run or swim a certain distance, or whatever, they will be more likely to learn to push themselves that way.

Yes, well.  I was not pushed in the "right" way, I think.  Now I can do it to myself, and I do (working towards fitness goals, and then writing a book.)  But this was not always the case, and that is why I want to teach it to my kids early.

[Momma Aimee]

i think it is very important to remember, generally, you get what you settle for and kids live up to expectaions -- i think haveing highe expectations and not settleing for less than good work is a good key.
 

Originally Posted by mmmmochi 

I suppose I will not be popular, but though I do not think of myself as a `tiger mom`, however I do not accept shoddy work from my homeschooled children. My daughter is old enough (8) to correct ALL spelling mistakes, to rewrite as many times as it takes for the composition to be of acceptable quality with not too many erasures. Nothing goes into her folder which is not of the best quality and she would not want it to.

Today, she had to write a list of books she has enjoyed about famlies going from most to least favorite. The instructions were to underline all titles, use capital letters where appropriate, and also to give the authors. It took her 4 attempts to produce this without error and neat handwriting throughout.

Her compositions have become much much better since we have been working like this. She has improved in spelling and her test results are much better. The other difference is she is homeschooled and not at school anymore.

She enjoys working, and always tries to do her best and knows I will not accept less than this. It works for us, but I have to say though we get great results I do not enjoy pushing her like this. I feel that it is tough being her mother (who loves her) and her teacher who has a duty to get her to do her best and continue to improve.

At school she was allowed to make spelling mistakes without correction, and her handwriting was not an issue. They were very easy going.

As her result her spelling and handwriting were not great at all. Now she her handwriting is almost as skillful as mine, and her spelling much improved.

It has meant repetition and a lot of redoing of work for her.  I do NOT shout or run her down, let alone name call. I do however ask her if SHE thinks she has done her best and if she thinks anything could be better, and help her correct spelling mistakes.

I think it is our role as adults to say -- out loud -- "yes it is fustrating to do it a 3rd time, or to pratice handwritting each day, but nothing is fun untill you are good at it, you do not want to be in high school and have you handwritting preventing you from doing wath you want" .... to make it 'real' and to -- put the reality of mastery and the need for it and the 'less than fuyn part of it' out tehre
 

[mmmmochi]

Of course I want my daughter to enjoy learning, but she is not mastering spelling and grammar for enjoyment, she is mastering it so she can have a good future. Work is not always fun, but it is always necessary.

However, saying that to her makes me feel plain guilty. She has goals set out, short medium and long term goals. Long term she has things like `to study chemistry in University in New York`, medium term things like `I want to make my own rocket`, short term `I want to master the periodic table`. She sees she is working forward and all this repetition and practice is leading towards greater things. She does get rewards for hard work that she would not get otherwise, worked out by a point system. 10 points equals a sum of money to spend as she likes.

I know she can do what I am asking of her, Im just asking for her to do her best.

If she wants to drop out as an adult and do something non academic, at least I will have given her the option and she will be a well educated young lady with every chance in the world. Its a harsh world out there, and I might not always be around to protect her, she has to be able to survive and thrive alone

[Savoir Faire]

How many times do I wish I would have stuck with something as a child? Umm....about a BILLION. Unfortunately, nobody was sitting there making me practice my guitar, for example. But I just never did...and eventually, well, I quit. (Actually, the teacher suggested I quit.)

I feel like all I read is either two ends of the spectrum. Let the kid do whatever...and now....make the kid do something. While I'm not one for yelling that my children are "trash," it is nice to see that, yes, if you want to be good at something, you have to PRACTICE.

The kid who got the perfect SATs? The girl who got 2nd place at the swim meet...anyone who can play piano....THEY ALL PRACTICED. And I have a feeling they didn't want to, always, either.

I am also intrigued by this idea. No need to yell or make them feel like a bad person, but DEFINITELY instilling a hard work ethic is important to me. And yes, I actually sat at the table with an eraser the other day erasing things and making my kids rewrite them.

Practice makes perfect...or at least good enough.

[BeanyMama]

I think holding your kids to realistic standards with the aim of mastery is perfectly reasonable. I wouldn't lump that in with "tiger mothering" in the least because of the extremity, but a middle of the road approach works for us. There are things that I do well because I like to, but there's others that I do well because I was taught to do them well, even when I didn't want to, and I'm so glad I was.

[Lakeeffectsnow]

Maybe, it's about knowing your kiddos?  My oldest daughter is a perfectionist.  She is incedibly hard on herself sometimes.  When she was younger, she would be reduced to tears because she didn't do something perfectly the first time.  We have worked with her over the years to have realistic expectations of herself and others.  She doesn't quit if she can't do something perfectly, but will work at it to the point of being physically and emotionally exhaustion.  She's had learn to recognize her emotional and physical signals to take a break.

I have other kiddos who need the extra push, who need to be asked "Is that your best?"  Not in punutive way, but to encourage introspection.  Sometimes, I have to realistically accept that perhaps that is the best he can do for that day, but he will try it again tomorrow.  My youngest son, will be reduced to an sobbing wreak some days if he feels our (or any other instructors) expectations are too high.  I'm really torn with him between giving a little extra push versus knowing when to back off and revisit the battle tomorrow.