I'd like to incorporate some "tiger mother" ideas - Page 2

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by Momma Aimee 
I think it is our role as adults to say -- out loud -- "yes it is fustrating to do it a 3rd time, or to pratice handwritting each day, but nothing is fun untill you are good at it, you do not want to be in high school and have you handwritting preventing you from doing wath you want" .... to make it 'real' and to -- put the reality of mastery and the need for it and the 'less than fuyn part of it' out tehre

I think it works better if you can create engaging and meaningful situations where your child experiences that doing something over and over again results in impressive long-term gains and a sense of self-satisfaction that comes through ease and improvement. I can tell my kids stuff like this until I'm blue in the face but they won't truly get it until they experience it for themselves. For us, outside music instrument lessons, vigorously but lovingly supported by parents at home, has been the best way to experience this. My 8-year-old has been playing violin for 5 years. When she meets challenges in math or handwriting she is likely to say something like "I need to practice this a few times every day to make it easy, just like with violin."

Miranda

[EviesMom]

I have a DD in dance. She has two big issues--confidence, and impulsivity. We are working on confidence, giving her many chances to perform for friends and family to prepare for being on-stage more. She just volunteered to be in a talent show, which is big for her! And she's talked to many friends and family members who did/do dance, confirming that "Real ballet is real hard work." I thought about that when reading Chua. 

Of course you can have hobbies that you dabble in, but if you don't put in the truly hard work to master any art, it will likely remain a hobby for yourself and not something that you joyously share with the community. I learned to knit a few years ago. I am horrible at it. Every so often, I try again, but unless/until I put in enough time to really learn to knit, I wouldn't subject others to my off-kilter knitting. I wouldn't give it as gifts. I don't have to become the world's greatest knitter, but I do have to put in a fair amount of effort before it can really be fun.

Edited by EviesMom - 1/25/11 at 4:00pm

[AAK]

Originally Posted by Lakeeffectsnow 

Maybe, it's about knowing your kiddos?  My oldest daughter is a perfectionist.  She is incedibly hard on herself sometimes.  When she was younger, she would be reduced to tears because she didn't do something perfectly the first time.  We have worked with her over the years to have realistic expectations of herself and others.  She doesn't quit if she can't do something perfectly, but will work at it to the point of being physically and emotionally exhaustion.  She's had learn to recognize her emotional and physical signals to take a break.

I have other kiddos who need the extra push, who need to be asked "Is that your best?"  Not in punutive way, but to encourage introspection.  Sometimes, I have to realistically accept that perhaps that is the best he can do for that day, but he will try it again tomorrow.  My youngest son, will be reduced to an sobbing wreak some days if he feels our (or any other instructors) expectations are too high.  I'm really torn with him between giving a little extra push versus knowing when to back off and revisit the battle tomorrow.

I have a couple perfectionists as well.  It has been quite a balancing act; I want to raise my children to become emotionally stable adults who aren't afraid to try something simply because they might mess up.  My oldest did get a bit lazy this year though, and we went over expectations and I am enforcing them.  She won't get paid (in points or money) for this because, for us, we want the satisfaction of a job well done to be motivating in itself.  We praise good work, may even show it off to someone.  Not everything is required to be done in "final copy" mode.  Journals aren't.  Math homework isn't EXCEPT that it has to be neat enough that I don't struggle to follow what they did or to read the answer.  The girls take such pride in their "penmanship" homework, it has never been an issue with that.  One may wonder though if they were to see both the journal and the penmanship page if they were done by the same child :)  If things are really messy, I ask the child to read it back to me.  Generally, they get stumped somewhere along the way and they know that if THEY can't read their own work, how could someone else.  They go fix it without nagging/yelling/etc.

Amy
 

[Greenmama2]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

Originally Posted by Momma Aimee 
I think it is our role as adults to say -- out loud -- "yes it is fustrating to do it a 3rd time, or to pratice handwritting each day, but nothing is fun untill you are good at it, you do not want to be in high school and have you handwritting preventing you from doing wath you want" .... to make it 'real' and to -- put the reality of mastery and the need for it and the 'less than fuyn part of it' out tehre

I think it works better if you can create engaging and meaningful situations where your child experiences that doing something over and over again results in impressive long-term gains and a sense of self-satisfaction that comes through ease and improvement. I can tell my kids stuff like this until I'm blue in the face but they won't truly get it until they experience it for themselves. For us, outside music instrument lessons, vigorously but lovingly supported by parents at home, has been the best way to experience this. My 8-year-old has been playing violin for 5 years. When she meets challenges in math or handwriting she is likely to say something like "I need to practice this a few times every day to make it easy, just like with violin."

Miranda

Yes! My DD is only a violin beginner (and only 4.5). Today she was listening to a recording of the first piece in Suzuki book one. She said:

"She can play that so fast and well! I guess that's because she has practiced for so long." She is starting to understand that hard (or at least consistent) work is the way to results already and she has never been forced to do anything.

[kikidee]

Just wanted to say that I am glad to see this thread on here. :)  I read an article about this book in Time magazine, with an interview with Chua, and I was inspired in some ways by her.  As others have said, not by the name calling, etc.  But it reminded me of my childhood, and how much I *practiced* things.  I am so thankful my parents expected the best from me, because like Chua, I now have many options in my adult life.  I want that for my kids.

In fact, this morning we practiced writing numbers 1-10 on the chalkboard.  I want to do that every morning, to get to the point where DD can easily do this.  She had fun, I had fun - but I was "pushing" a bit in teaching her the right way to do it, and having her do it again until she got it right.  For some reason, that felt like it wouldn't fit in with my parenting/schooling ideas of "gentle discipline" and attachment parenting.  But, in fact, it does. :)  We then moved on to our learning games and did the rest of our schooling.  There was no damage done by requesting she do this rote task as well as I knew she could; and I could tell she had a sense of pride about doing it well.

Anyway, as I said, glad to see that others in the Mothering community feel the same way!

[kittywitty]

Originally Posted by BeanyMama 

I think holding your kids to realistic standards with the aim of mastery is perfectly reasonable. I wouldn't lump that in with "tiger mothering" in the least because of the extremity, but a middle of the road approach works for us. There are things that I do well because I like to, but there's others that I do well because I was taught to do them well, even when I didn't want to, and I'm so glad I was.

I agree. Honestly, even as a hardcore Virgo perfectionist, this Tiger Mother thing makes me want to vomit. My mother had no problems telling me my A's were not good enough growing up. It did not make me do better. It made me give up so I failed many classes. I figured I could never do good enough for her, so why try at all? So I spent my time reading Herodotus and teaching myself French through translating archaeology papers and never letting her get close to me or know my interests as they were never good enough. I did not succeed in college or as a parent because of this-it broke me and tore apart every thread of my self-esteem. I would never do this to my children. There's a difference between teaching your children perseverance and practice and beating them down.

[mmmmochi]

I am not scared to tell my daughter when her work is not good enough. When she does something well, she gets praise. I know when she has been slacking, and it is sometimes so hard to say to her `hey, this is not your best, you can do better`. If she truely does not understand or needs more instruction there is no problem with that.

When she does well, I do truely tell her how wonderful her work is. She gets praise. Her best is good enough. However, I would not  be doing my job as her teacher or her mother if I allowed her to do less than her very best. She is capable of writing neatly, and without mistakes, for instance, and for  her final drafts this is all I am happy to accept.

Her old school, before we homeschooled allowed her to submit work with mistakes in it, or messy writing, and a lot of rubbing outs. Im sure it was easy for her to work in this way and probably more enjoyable but achieved nothing. At least now she can be proud of her work.

I will not always be here to support her and protect her, she needs to be able to function in the world or work and support herself as an adult. I want her to have every chance at a comfortable life in the future.
 

There is a difference between abusive parenting telling a child that nothing they do is good enough, and pushing a child to do their best in life.
 

[umsami]

There's a book from a few years back called "Top of the Class: How Asian Parents Raise High Achievers--and How You Can Too."  I think it's more gentle than Tiger Mother... so might offer some ideas for some.  

I remember in school (which was an academically challenging overpriced private school), I always saw on my report card, "Umsami is not working up to her potential."  That used

to drive me crazy. I had no idea how they knew what my potential was.   I later found out after college that my IQ (given as an entry exam to this school when I was in second grade) was very very high--and this is where that came from.  I had parents who did not push at all.  They felt that the school was enough, and that it gave too much homework, etc.  In retrospect, it would have been nice to have parents who pushed just a little... who stressed test preparation or good study habits or whatever.  I always used to do my homework either in class or before school and never studied for tests other than reviewing my notes for about 10 minutes before the test.  It was good enough for me to graduate cum laude and get into good universities--but it didn't teach me anything.  I showed up to the SAT with zero preparation and did fine, but not great.   I took the ACT only to keep a friend company, but ended up scoring in the 97th percentile.  I wonder how I would have done had I actually prepared.  I actually learned how to study from my Asian friends. LOL  I think the key is balance.

[mom2ponygirl]

I have to say I feel much more inspired by Cal Newport books and the study hacks site.  His motto of do less and do it better resonates here.  He contradicts the idea of the super rigorous high school schedule where the kids feel pressured to collect as many AP's as possible, perfect test scores, perfect grades, every extracurricular and community service project under the sun, in order to get into the 'right' college.  He proposes learning to be interesting and interested instead as both a better life philosophy and a better way to get into a good fit college.  He talks about enjoying life now rather than seeing school as a time to jump through hoops in order to enjoy the good life later.  He discusses learning to focus deeply so that you can manage some rigorous academics while still pursuing your other interests and hobbies.  

I think when I mull over the merits of a classical education, the ability to think deeply and focus on hard problems is what appeals to me.  However, an overwhelming schedule and too much busy work seem a possible danger with that approach if one is not careful.  So, we work on my daughter owning her own educational process and learning to develop her deep focus muscles.  We want her to own that ability so she can effectively follow her passions - whatever they end up being. LOL

I think my daughter's ability to work hard has come from a desire to pursue her own interests.  We discuss the level of work required to move up to a new level of proficiency.  She makes the choice to commit to that and we support her efforts.  We have many discussions on how we can help her with those goals.  So for an example, my daughter plays piano.  It came easily to her and for quite a while she would practice by running through her pieces once and playing around on the piano however she saw fit.  This was sufficient for quite sometime.  She came to level that would require her to carefully practice hands separately and break the piece into manageable chunks.  She did not change her practice habits and her playing suffered.  We discussed it with her and her teacher.  She was reminded of strategies she had been told to use.  She tried them inconsistently.  We talked again about how it was fine if she enjoyed her level of playing now, but in order to move on to these advanced pieces, she was going to have to try the tools she'd been told to try.  She agreed it would be helpful if I would remind her of the practice strategies she and her teacher had discussed.  She began keeping a notebook with her at lessons to write down her teacher's suggestions.  She agreed that it was helpful if I reminded her to check her notes.  She made a huge leap in her playing shortly after that which reinforced the value of the additional work and the increased focus.  We have had similar strategies with horseback riding, hard math problems, learning to write well, etc.   

I think learning to work hard and persevere through periods of intense concentration are laudable goals.  However, I don't think they are attainable unless the skills are developed through goals of value to the child.  I think many kids need help and support to develop these skills even in areas of interest.  I don't think I qualify 'Tiger mom's' approach as appropriate scaffolding for skill development though.

[mom2ponygirl]

Originally Posted by mmmmochi 

 Her best is good enough. However, I would not  be doing my job as her teacher or her mother if I allowed her to do less than her very best. 

I think the message to always to your best can be problematic for some children, particularly those with perfectionistic tendencies.  We can't always do our best all the time.  It is physically and mentally impossible.  Sometimes you just need to do some things sufficiently well so you can save that energy and brain space for the really big stuff.  Sometimes trying for perfect can get in the way of the very good. YMMV

[mmmmochi]

When it comes to school work, to reading, writing, math, science, subjects which are all about practice and mastery and taking good care to correct mistakes before submitting them, then in my house, my daughter will always be required to do her best. She is a bright girl, and CAN produce work that is neat and tidy and without mistakes. She is capable of correcting mistakes she has made. That which she is capable of, I expect from her. She has to learn the importance of producing neat, tidy work, which is easy to read and without spelling mistakes.

I am seeing the results. It is not to everyone`s taste to work this way but I have watched her go from a middling student in public school, to absolutely fantastic being classically homeschooled. She needed me to tell her what was expected of her. She can truely have pride in her work now, not to mention fully enjoying novels now she can read fluently.

With matters of talent, with art, with music, I will not ask for what she cannot do. She is not a good artist. We still do the art lessons and I take pleasure in her pleasure in the subject. She does not enjoy music, and Ild never push her.

We all have different ways of working with our children, and we all expect different things from them, the only thing that matters is that we all care deeply about our children and their future, no matter how they get there. I was sick with her school telling me how they were teaching them to `think` and then getting a child home who could not spell correctly. What use is thinking if noone can read your ideas!

[TEAK's Mom]

This post really resonated for me. Thank you.

Originally Posted by mom2ponygirl 

I have to say I feel much more inspired by Cal Newport books and the study hacks site.  His motto of do less and do it better resonates here.  He contradicts the idea of the super rigorous high school schedule where the kids feel pressured to collect as many AP's as possible, perfect test scores, perfect grades, every extracurricular and community service project under the sun, in order to get into the 'right' college.  He proposes learning to be interesting and interested instead as both a better life philosophy and a better way to get into a good fit college.  He talks about enjoying life now rather than seeing school as a time to jump through hoops in order to enjoy the good life later.  He discusses learning to focus deeply so that you can manage some rigorous academics while still pursuing your other interests and hobbies.  

I think when I mull over the merits of a classical education, the ability to think deeply and focus on hard problems is what appeals to me.  However, an overwhelming schedule and too much busy work seem a possible danger with that approach if one is not careful.  So, we work on my daughter owning her own educational process and learning to develop her deep focus muscles.  We want her to own that ability so she can effectively follow her passions - whatever they end up being. LOL

I think my daughter's ability to work hard has come from a desire to pursue her own interests.  We discuss the level of work required to move up to a new level of proficiency.  She makes the choice to commit to that and we support her efforts.  We have many discussions on how we can help her with those goals.  So for an example, my daughter plays piano.  It came easily to her and for quite a while she would practice by running through her pieces once and playing around on the piano however she saw fit.  This was sufficient for quite sometime.  She came to level that would require her to carefully practice hands separately and break the piece into manageable chunks.  She did not change her practice habits and her playing suffered.  We discussed it with her and her teacher.  She was reminded of strategies she had been told to use.  She tried them inconsistently.  We talked again about how it was fine if she enjoyed her level of playing now, but in order to move on to these advanced pieces, she was going to have to try the tools she'd been told to try.  She agreed it would be helpful if I would remind her of the practice strategies she and her teacher had discussed.  She began keeping a notebook with her at lessons to write down her teacher's suggestions.  She agreed that it was helpful if I reminded her to check her notes.  She made a huge leap in her playing shortly after that which reinforced the value of the additional work and the increased focus.  We have had similar strategies with horseback riding, hard math problems, learning to write well, etc.   

I think learning to work hard and persevere through periods of intense concentration are laudable goals.  However, I don't think they are attainable unless the skills are developed through goals of value to the child.  I think many kids need help and support to develop these skills even in areas of interest.  I don't think I qualify 'Tiger mom's' approach as appropriate scaffolding for skill development though.

[phathui5]

I finished reading the book yesterday that I really enjoyed the last few chapters, where the author had to come to terms with the fact that her younger daughter needed something different than what she was doing.

What I got out of the book was:

- it's ok to push kids past what they think are their limits; people are capable of a lot

- lots of practice and time spend working on things = success (this is repeated in Outliers, which I just finished)

- expecting a lot from kids isn't going to hurt their self-esteem

- don't become a total psycho