Grading by peers

[JollyGG]

My son is in a 2nd-5th grade elementary school program. Every year they have a reading activity where kids from all 4 grades get into small groups with parent volunteers and go over a book they are all reading together. Historically this is a big deal at the school because the kids enjoy this chance to interact and learn with kids from other classrooms/grades. I am one of the parent volunteers this year.

I just got the book and the information about the group. There was information on how student evaluations would be done for this project. The sheet says "As a group, decide how each member should be graded for the resonsibilities listed. Have the group leader be the recorder to write the grades. Ask each member what he or she feels their grade is for the day. If another member in the groupd does not agree with that score, they must give a reason why they do not agree. Discuss as a group in apolite, respectful and friendly manner."

I have a couple of problems with this. Firstly I don't feel that grades by public opinion are appropriate at all and certainly not appropriate at the elementary school level. Secondly, my own child is in the group I am facilitating. I see no way for a parent to impartially handle a conflict about a grade when their own child is part of the discussion.

I asked my son what he though of the evaluation process. He didn't have an issue with it and reports that this is how all his group work is evaluated. He says he hasn't seen any conflict or issues with it.

My son does have problems with group work and does not like group work. But hasn't reported any of these issues being due to the grading/evaluation part of group work.

I need to decide if this is something worth bringing up to the school as something I feel is inappropriate. If I decide to bring it up it would be helpful if I had more to back up my concerns than personal opinion of a parent whose child struggles with appropriate behavior in group work settings.

What do you think?
 

[Linda on the move]

What kind of responsibilities are they grading each other on? It sounds more like a chance to give each other feedback on things like listening, do their part of the project, etc. Not evaluating actual school work.

I don't think grades are that big of a deal anyway, and teaching children how to give and take feedback seems positive to me, depending on how it's handled.

[whatsnextmom]

Actually, I don't have a problem with it. Self and positive peer evaluation situations can be very helpful to all involved. It gets them really looking at the requirements of a project and looking for how each aspect was truely accomplished. This isn't something kids do particularly well with their own work... can't be objective enough. It's particularly useful with group projects. My kids tend to be the ones the others lean on to stay on task and get the work done. They tend to take the lions share because they don't want a bad grade due to the irresponsibility of others. Grading eachother is a way to keep everyone within the group invested in doing their part. It makes them really notice who is doing the work and who it not.

My kids are in 5th and 9th grade and neither have had issues with peer grading. It's doubtful these peer grades are going to be put into the official grade book. You'll likely be very surprised. Kids are pretty generous and fair with their peers when asked to grade eacthother in the classroom setting. Those that don't do the work are pretty honest about the grades they deserve. Kids that work hard are recognized for their efforts. Kids know this is an important job they are being given.

[ollyoxenfree]

I also don't have a problem with the concept of peer marking and peer review. My dc have been participating routinely in similar activities since the early grades. They are used to it. They don't think twice about it. It started with marking each other's spelling and math quizzes while the teacher took them up. Then they moved on to peer editing written assignments, giving feedback on group projects, and grading oral presentations and poster presentations. Peer editing is especially useful, I find, since students seem a little more open to hearing about problems from their classmates, as opposed to a teacher, eg. the pacing pf a story or confusion about who is saying or doing something or spelling errors etc. It's also helpful for them to see how other children have approached a task and to see their output. Peer marking develops their ability to evaluate fairly and accurately their own work and others'. 

IME, most peer marking doesn't count for report cards, or if it does, is only a portion of the grade. For example, peer editing of written assignments will happen in early draft stages. Feedback on an oral presentation may count for 10 or 20% of the final mark on the project. The teachers make a distinction between feedback and marking on individual assignments and grading for report cards.  

I can see a problem if you have an intensely perfectionist child who would find it agonizing to show his work to someone else. But It might be helpful for that child to see other children's work and realize that other children make mistakes and observe how they handle corrections. 

I can also see a problem if the teacher (and any other adults involved) don't foster a good attitude toward the process. They must ensure that the children are coached in how to be fair, what standards to use, to offer their opinions in a constructive manner, and how to listen and accept the feedback they receive. These skills can carry over to other social aspects like the playground and the lunchroom. 

Peer review is an important part of learning to work collaboratively.  I think that learning to work collaboratively within a diverse group is one of the important advantages that formal schooling offers today.  

As for parental objectivity, I've helped in the classroom with various projects, helped with editing and marking, been asked to participate as a judge for science and history fairs, and ran a school debate club. I never thought that I would have a problem being objective about my children's own performance in any of these activities - and I haven't. 

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by JollyGG 

Secondly, my own child is in the group I am facilitating. I see no way for a parent to impartially handle a conflict about a grade when their own child is part of the discussion.

 

I disagree. At my kids school, parent volunteers do a lot of things - like monitoring the playground, working in the library, etc. I don't see that grades are different than discipline issues. I think that *most* parents can get out of their own head enough to treat all the children with equity.

The goal is polite, respectful conversation. Surely most parent volunteers feel that should roll both ways -- toward their own child, away from their own child.

[whatsnextmom]

I agree that the majority of parents can handle this. Truth is, most parents are tougher on their own kids than others will be. The very few parents that can't handled are typically pinpointed by the staff early on and taken out of these situations.

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

Originally Posted by JollyGG 

Secondly, my own child is in the group I am facilitating. I see no way for a parent to impartially handle a conflict about a grade when their own child is part of the discussion.

I disagree. At my kids school, parent volunteers do a lot of things - like monitoring the playground, working in the library, etc. I don't see that grades are different than discipline issues. I think that *most* parents can get out of their own head enough to treat all the children with equity.

The goal is polite, respectful conversation. Surely most parent volunteers feel that should roll both ways -- toward their own child, away from their own child.

[VisionaryMom]

I never liked peer grading as a child. (We had pretty much the same instructions.) My reason was that I was/am stringent in my expectations for others (and myself). Much of the problem is how I feel about group work. I always answered the questions for my group because we always were in that system of one student who excels, one who does poorly, and 2 who are average. It's an unfair system. When I knew all of the answers and the "poor student" in the group just sat there, then doesn't he deserve an F? I suppose the idea is that you assign different jobs, but those students (ime) never wanted to be, say, the recorder for the group, which would've meant they were pulling their weight. You may not be able to come up with the answer, but you were writing our answers in an organized fashion. Excellent, you're part of the process. No, these kids never wanted that job, and then I was stuck saying I think they should fail. Then the other kids always said I was being mean and penalizing someone for not being as smart. It went around & around in circles, and eventually I just stopped caring and consented to whatever the 2 average kids in the group decided. We never had an adult facilitating in these discussions, which could have helped, to be honest. We were just left to sort it out a la Lord of the Flies. 

My children aren't old enough to do this kind of work, but I don't know if I'd say something. It would depend on how my child handled the evaluations. If they made one of my kids upset, then of course I would address that issue with the teacher. If they told me about the same scenario I saw, then I would approach the teacher about doing some modeling for how these discussions should go. All of that would depend as well on how many other problems I'd brought to my child's teacher.

[VisionaryMom]

* double post

[kathymuggle]

This thread is timely.

My  DD regularly marks others kids work.  Usually simple correct/incorrect quizzes.

I have now learned they were marking peoples work from another class.

Quite frankly, I think her marks and the marks of the other kids are confidential.  It is no one else's business what her marks are.  

I will probably write a letter today regarding this.

I do think learning to evaluate work is important, but goodness, there are so many ways to do this without using real classmates and real marks.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom 

I never liked peer grading as a child. (We had pretty much the same instructions.) My reason was that I was/am stringent in my expectations for others (and myself). Much of the problem is how I feel about group work. I always answered the questions for my group because we always were in that system of one student who excels, one who does poorly, and 2 who are average. It's an unfair system. When I knew all of the answers and the "poor student" in the group just sat there, then doesn't he deserve an F? I suppose the idea is that you assign different jobs, but those students (ime) never wanted to be, say, the recorder for the group, which would've meant they were pulling their weight. You may not be able to come up with the answer, but you were writing our answers in an organized fashion. Excellent, you're part of the process. No, these kids never wanted that job, and then I was stuck saying I think they should fail. Then the other kids always said I was being mean and penalizing someone for not being as smart. It went around & around in circles, and eventually I just stopped caring and consented to whatever the 2 average kids in the group decided. We never had an adult facilitating in these discussions, which could have helped, to be honest. We were just left to sort it out a la Lord of the Flies. 

My children aren't old enough to do this kind of work, but I don't know if I'd say something. It would depend on how my child handled the evaluations. If they made one of my kids upset, then of course I would address that issue with the teacher. If they told me about the same scenario I saw, then I would approach the teacher about doing some modeling for how these discussions should go. All of that would depend as well on how many other problems I'd brought to my child's teacher.

With DD's most recent group project, she did a lot of work and she received a much higher grade than the others in her group. One girl did very little, except the all-important task of providing the video camera, showed up late for meetings, and didn't contribute much. Her grade reflected her participation. The teacher kept a close eye on the groups, checked in on their progress frequently, spoke with the students as a group and individually, as well as asking for a final oral presentation in front of the class. It was fairly obvious who contributed and how much each student learned, so she was able to give accurate individual marks.   

Group projects require good structuring and guidance from the teacher - not, as you say, a Lord of the Flies approach. I'd definitely speak to the teacher if they aren't providing the proper foundation for group work. 

[JollyGG]

Wow, surprised that so many people consider this type of thing not only acceptable but positive. I guess both my husband and I had more negative experiences with this type of system like VisionaryMom. I remember it being more about social control than the actual work done when I had to do this sort of thing in school. Even if someone deserved a lower grade you couldn't give it to them if they were popular without social repercussions outside of that project and that class. The kids who didn't want to do any work used the peer evaluations as ammunition to make the kids who were more skilled at school work does the bulk of the work. I never found it to be fair and productive. I didn't find it appropriate when I had to do it myself in high school and to see the system in my son's 3rd grade classroom doesn't feel appropriate either.

But since it's clear that I'm in the minority, I'll just keep my mouth shut for now, though I probably won't participate in the reading project next year as the peer evaluation part makes me uncomfortable.

As for the issue with my own child in my group I actually fear I will be harder on him, not easier. But that is no more fair to him than if I was giving him an easy time of it. I just really don't think that a parent can be truly impartial with their own kid.

They are evaluating each other on preparedness, participation, and one other area of the group work.

[big-mama]

I had this same experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyGG 

I remember it being more about social control than the actual work done when I had to do this sort of thing in school. Even if somene deserved a lower grade you couldn't give it to them if they were popular without social reprocussions outside of that project and that class, the kids who didn't want to do any work used the peer evaluations as amunition to make the kids who were more skilled at school work due the bulk of the work. I never found it to be fair and productive.  

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by JollyGG 

But since it's clear that I'm in the minority, I'll just keep my mouth shut for now, though I probably won't participate in the reading project next year as the peer evaluation part makes me uncomfortable.

As for the issue with my own child in my group I actually fear I will be harder on him, not easier. But that is no more fair to him than if I was giving him an easy time of it. I just really don't think that a parent can be truly impartial with their own kid.

I think you could still opt to share your views!!!! If everyone agrees, it's really not very interesting to read the thread. And I can totally see how peer grading could be badly handled. I think it really depends on the adults to help steer the kids toward a learning opportunity. I think it's one of those things that could be either positive or negative, depending on the details.

I think I am pretty impartial with my kids in groups, but I've had YEARS of practice with it.

When does the book project happen? I'm really curious how it will play out. I'd love updates!

[eepster]

As an art student, then as a TA in the art department, I've seen many many student critiques.  The value of them varies greatly.  Frankly maturity of the group played a huge role in how valuable a critiquing was.  We are talking about people all over the age of 17, many in their 20s or older.

At the end of it all though, after the students had discussed and the artist had defended, the grade came from either the professor or me the TA. It never was up to a fellow student.

I can see how it might have value in theory, but I doubt that it lives up to it in practice.  Especially in elementary school.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by JollyGG 

 I never found it to be fair and productive. I didn't find it appropriate when I had to do it myself in high school and to see the system in my son's 3rd grade classroom doesn't feel appropriate either.

But since it's clear that I'm in the minority, I'll just keep my mouth shut for now, though I probably won't participate in the reading project next year as the peer evaluation part makes me uncomfortable.

........

They are evaluating each other on preparedness, participation, and one other area of the group work.

There's no doubt that peer evaluations can be implemented poorly and thus, be ineffective. Perhaps you could suggest to the teacher that s/he allow some time for a debriefing with the parent volunteers after the event.  You can all discuss what worked well, where problems arose, how to handle them, how to make the sessions more valuable for the students etc.  If you have concerns, I don't think you should keep quiet - at school or here in this forum. 

Since s/he believes in the value of feedback (otherwise she wouldn't be trying it with the students), there's no reason s/he should object to hearing some her/himself. 

Good luck! I'm also be interested in hearing how it goes. 

[Tigerle]

As a research assistant, I have been involved in teaching university students how to give and receivie feedback in seminars. The actual grade that went on record however was discussed between the professor and the research assistants. It was hard enough for adult students to understand how to give and receive constructive feedback. I would not want to teach students younger than high school how to do this (and remember an attempt to teach this in one of my high school classes which worked out very poorly due to the "social pressure" angle, though admittedly it was handled badly and obviously not properly thought through in the first place). I think it is a big difference whether you ask elementary students to do this or young adults. I wouldn't mind so much if the emphasis was on evaluation, but according to the OP it is supposed to start out with every student blurting out his or her grade and then have others disagree (also blurting out, I should expect) and only then will they have to work out the reasoning for what they blurted out. On second thoughts, maybe this is supposed to be easier for the younger kids than everybody having to give feedback....I wonder whether the parent volunteers will receive some coaching on how to facilitate this?

Maybe we are underestimating what elementary schoolers can handle, though. They must have done this before (doesn't mean it worked out well, I know). In your shoes, I'd probably express my concerns and ask for guidance, but would not say "I very much object to this and will never do it again" unless I'd actually seen it happen.  You never know - maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised...

[JollyGG]

The first reading circle in on Thursday (there will be three). We were basically given the instruction in the OP, the book to read, some other form the kids should be keeping track of and a page of instructions saying each child should bring 5 questions to discuss about the book. I will arrive and be given me group meeting location. At this point in time there is no real plans to talk to the parent volunteers either ahead of time or after.

My negativity about this probably stems from my own experiences in a high school that required group work from every single teacher in every single class.

I'll see how it goes with the kids on Thursday.

I do think there is some social pressure there. My son says that he gives himself the lowest score (so a 1 out of 5) and his classmates then disagree and state that he should get a 3 or 4. So I'm guessing he's deciding not to risk having to defend the grade he gave himself.

[Tigerle]

Originally Posted by JollyGG 

I do think there is some social pressure there. My son says that he gives himself the lowest score (so a 1 out of 5) and his classmates then disagree and state that he should get a 3 or 4. So I'm guessing he's deciding not to risk having to defend the grade he gave himself.

OK, I get it. This is BS. Doesn't work. you definitely should voice your concerns (still think it would be better to voice  questions first and criticism after, with the hands-on experience to back you up).

[JollyGG]

Well it went fine today, because I didn't have to do the peer grading part. The packet we were give was basically just a copy of last years. When I got there she handed us the evaluation form and instructed us to evaluate the students on it. One of the other parents asked about having the students evaluate each other. I mentioned that I was glad she was just having us do it as I was bothered by the peer review. The other parent was trying to convince her to do it as that is the way it went last year and he thought it went good. He mentioned that the kids rated themselves low and then the others in the group raised it much like the pattern my son reported. He seemed to think this was an effective pattern.

She had us just do the facilitator evaluation for now.

The kids also had a self evaluation form to fill out after the group thing. One of the girls asked if they would be doing peer. When I told her we weren't she really pushed to do them even though I explained that we would be doing it differently this year. At the end of the group session some of the kids had their self evaluation forms and some didn't so during the time set aside to have them self evaluate I talked about the form and invited them to think about how they thought they did. Some mentioned where they thought they should be. The girl who really wanted to do the peer evaluations was very quick to jump in and start explaining in depth why they didn't deserve that high a score. The kids who had mentioned what how they thought they did immediately backed down and changed it lower. She, of course felt she deserved a 5/5 in every area. I immediately told the girl that we were not doing peer evaluations.

From what I saw of the process in that brief snapshot it lived up to my expectations of it. I'm glad that we did not do peer evaluations.

The evaluation was in three areas; preparedness, participation, and staying on task. All the kids did great with being prepared and participating. Some did need frequent reminders to stay on task but overall everyone did very well.

We may end up doing peer evaluations after the third group day, but we will see.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by JollyGG 

Well it went fine today, because I didn't have to do the peer grading part. 

Thanks for the update. it's just as well there is no peer evaluation, since it doesn't seem to be handled very well. The rest of the exercise - reading, student and parent participation etc - sounds like fun. Whenever I did that kind of thing, I was always impressed by the exchange of ideas from the students.