or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Talk Amongst Ourselves › Spirituality › Religious Studies › Catholic Church and Artificial Birth Control/Contraception/Sterilization
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Catholic Church and Artificial Birth Control/Contraception/Sterilization - Page 2

post #21 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post

The Churches teaching on ART is also an important part of the overall teachings on fertility and BC. Don't have the links handy though to post them. 



ART?



artificial reproductive technology, IE in vitro, artificial insemination ect.

post #22 of 48


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove View Post

As I wade through all of the articles shared, I cannot help but be hit with one thing over and over again- pride.  Pride and the assumed idea that the author knows more than 2000 years of teaching and guidance by the Holy Spirit.

 

"But P&L, the Holy Spirit moves everyone!"  Sure it does, but why the Holy Spirit move people in a direction completely contrary to the teachings the Church has held since the beginning?  Why on Earth should the Church bow to recent changes in society?  The Church, God Bless her, has survived 2000 years.  She has survived countless empires, controversies, and the Reformation.  And even with the insantity of the Reformation, what did the Church do? Did she change to make the people who left happy?  No.  She became even more adement about education regarding her teachings.

 

Lucifer was the brightest of the bright, the first among angels.  He refused to bow to man, who was made in God's own image.  His punishment was eternal damnation.  And he want to lead others there. /sarcasm After all, he is smarter than God /sarcasm

 

Satan can clothe himself in the light.  He is the father of lies. What better way to get back at God than to make God's best creation turn his/her back on God, and to turn his/her back on God's Bride, His Church?

 

Why should the Church bow to the pressures of society when she is above society? This life here on Earth is nothing.  The prideful articles that have been shared focus on this short temporal life.  When we all slip this mortal coil, and we face God, what are we going to say when He asks us about our actions? When we are faced with what every decision lead to, what will we say?  When the authors of these articles see what these lies did to faithful Christians, what will they say?  How will they account for the sins their writings lead to?

 

 

But the Church is not above society.  Instances abound throughout church history where even popes have turned from the will of God and the Church had to recant and repent at a later date.  Think about the Crusades, Borgia Popes (right around the "insanity" of the Reformation), failure to support the Jews (Christ's people!) against persecution, even the relative lack of action against the current molestation scandal.  Not to mention the Church has changed and added dogma over that span.  It is full of many Godly and well-intentioned people, but at the end of the day, it's no substitute for the wisdom gained from truly listening to our Lord. 

 

The Holy Spirit moves people in a direction separate from the Church's will because the Church is not God:  "I, the Lord, am your God.  You shall have no other gods beside me."  

 

What will God say to those who placed devotion to man's dogma over His will, especially if it were to result in death? It's a scary thought...

 

May His grace be sufficient to cover all of our transgressions! 

post #23 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by anjelika View Post


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove View Post

As I wade through all of the articles shared, I cannot help but be hit with one thing over and over again- pride.  Pride and the assumed idea that the author knows more than 2000 years of teaching and guidance by the Holy Spirit.

 

"But P&L, the Holy Spirit moves everyone!"  Sure it does, but why the Holy Spirit move people in a direction completely contrary to the teachings the Church has held since the beginning?  Why on Earth should the Church bow to recent changes in society?  The Church, God Bless her, has survived 2000 years.  She has survived countless empires, controversies, and the Reformation.  And even with the insantity of the Reformation, what did the Church do? Did she change to make the people who left happy?  No.  She became even more adement about education regarding her teachings.

 

Lucifer was the brightest of the bright, the first among angels.  He refused to bow to man, who was made in God's own image.  His punishment was eternal damnation.  And he want to lead others there. /sarcasm After all, he is smarter than God /sarcasm

 

Satan can clothe himself in the light.  He is the father of lies. What better way to get back at God than to make God's best creation turn his/her back on God, and to turn his/her back on God's Bride, His Church?

 

Why should the Church bow to the pressures of society when she is above society? This life here on Earth is nothing.  The prideful articles that have been shared focus on this short temporal life.  When we all slip this mortal coil, and we face God, what are we going to say when He asks us about our actions? When we are faced with what every decision lead to, what will we say?  When the authors of these articles see what these lies did to faithful Christians, what will they say?  How will they account for the sins their writings lead to?

 

 

But the Church is not above society.  Instances abound throughout church history where even popes have turned from the will of God and the Church had to recant and repent at a later date.  Think about the Crusades, Borgia Popes (right around the "insanity" of the Reformation), failure to support the Jews (Christ's people!) against persecution, even the relative lack of action against the current molestation scandal.  Not to mention the Church has changed and added dogma over that span.  It is full of many Godly and well-intentioned people, but at the end of the day, it's no substitute for the wisdom gained from truly listening to our Lord. 

 

The Holy Spirit moves people in a direction separate from the Church's will because the Church is not God:  "I, the Lord, am your God.  You shall have no other gods beside me."  

 

What will God say to those who placed devotion to man's dogma over His will, especially if it were to result in death? It's a scary thought...

 

May His grace be sufficient to cover all of our transgressions! 



I agree with this. There has been a whole lot of BAD that has come from the Church in the past. The Crusades was one of the WORST. How could they possibly be inspired by the Holy Spirit? And Indulgences? Did God really say that we could pay our way to heaven? I don't think so. I do trust the church, but I don't take every word it says with blind acceptance. We have to listen to God within ourselves as well to find the right path. No person is without fallibility.

 

I do struggle with this as well because I am pregnant with #4, and we feel done. I will be graduating college in 2012, and then I will need to get a job. I just can't see working and having more babies. Also I don't see how we can afford more than 4 and still give each one what they need. I am really stressed as it is, and I don't know how my sanity, emotions, and patience can take much more. I want to be able to be the best mother and wife that I can be to love and guide the life that we have already created. If we add more, I feel like it would be too much and I might drift from God. I already have been weak with just the 3. 

DH is planning on getting a V, and I'm not completely against it.... I don't want to be on birth control. I don't like how it makes me feel and act, and I don't like that I am interfering with God. DH is adement about not getting pregnant again too, so he said he wanted the V. We are both Catholic, but I suppose he sees the welfare of our family out weighing our obligation to keep open to more children. Of course if the V fails, we would welcome the new baby, but would like to avoid it. I do feel guilty about this, but I don't know what else to do. We have tried NFP, and that is how DD3 was conceived..... DH doesn't trust it anymore. I think I will come to terms with what is best for our family and welfare, and after reflection with God I feel that he would rather my family be together, happy, loved, and nurtured in the Catholic faith instead of have a bunch of children and a stressed mother who can't hold it together let alone guide the children in the faith.

post #24 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove View Post

As I wade through all of the articles shared, I cannot help but be hit with one thing over and over again- pride. 

 

 Yes, well ... this point works well to Church leadership, also.  The Church hierarchy certainly can - and has, I believe - also fall prey to prideful ignorance and apathy toward the Holy Spirit.  This is not only a problem with the laity and non-ordained.

 

 

Quote:

"But Why on Earth should the Church bow to recent changes in society?   

 

But they have, and do ... that is, after all, why we have a celibate priesthood.

 

 

Quote:
When we are faced with what every decision lead to, what will we say?  When the authors of these articles see what these lies did to faithful Christians, what will they say?  How will they account for the sins their writings lead to?
 

 

In that vein - How will the hierarchy of our Church account for THEIR sins, and for what THOSE SINS and lies have done to faithful Christians?  RC Christians have been leaving the Church in droves for decades due to the scandals, lies, cover-ups, finger-pointing, misinformation, and poor leadership at every level of the Church.

 

Howzabout we ALL take some blame here, for a change?  Only then will our Church begin to recover, and to flourish as it should.

 

Oh, and the answer to your question ... would be the salvitic grace of Christ.  Not one of us will be worthy to stand before God and seek admittance to His kingdom.  If we believe that Jesus Christ, and NOT the RC church, is truly Lord and the author of our salvation, then we will stand on His grace and seek Our Father's mercy for our mistakes and failings - hopefully knowing in our hearts that we had the best of intentions, and the best interests of our brothers and sisters at heart. 

post #25 of 48

 

The only thing I have time to comment on at this point is there is a fundamental and often overlooked difference between the fallen and fallible nature of man - this includes our pope, bishops, etc., - and the perfect and infallible teaching nature of the Church, when our Holy Father speaks definitively on issues of faith and morals. In these two areas of faith and morals, the Church, guided and protected by the Holy Spirit, cannot err. That was Christ's promise to us.

This seems to be a very common misunderstanding among even Catholics, who often tend to lump everything together as being "man made" and capable of error.

(As for priestly celibacy, it is a discipline, not a doctrine (the Eastern Catholic Church does permit married men to become priests). It is changeable. The matter of contraception, however, is not.)
post #26 of 48


Quote:

Originally Posted by Anastasiya View Post

 

.. the perfect and infallible teaching nature of the Church, when our Holy Father speaks definitively on issues of faith and morals. In these two areas of faith and morals, the Church, guided and protected by the Holy Spirit, cannot err. That was Christ's promise to us. 

 

The whole premise of "infallible teaching" in the Church has a sketchy history to begin with, though.  By its own definition of "infallible" (the Bishop of Rome must speak in union/agreement with all bishops of the Church), the process/council of proclaiming this doctrine was not. Bishops in disagreement with the doctrine were forced to leave the council when they refused to vote in favor of it.

 

Like any individual, the Church is only guided by the Holy Spirit when those in leadership are open to the Spirit/allow the Spirit to guide them in their discernment and decision-making.  Due to the prideful human nature mentioned earlier in the thread, I do not believe that this has always been the case.  It's not just an automatic thing that occurs, just because one is in a position of leadership in the Church.

post #27 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arduinna View Post

The Churches teaching on ART is also an important part of the overall teachings on fertility and BC. Don't have the links handy though to post them. 



2376 Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child's right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses' "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."167

 

2377 Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."168 "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses' union . . . . Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."169

post #28 of 48


 

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anastasiya View Post

 

The only thing I have time to comment on at this point is there is a fundamental and often overlooked difference between the fallen and fallible nature of man - this includes our pope, bishops, etc., - and the perfect and infallible teaching nature of the Church, when our Holy Father speaks definitively on issues of faith and morals. In these two areas of faith and morals, the Church, guided and protected by the Holy Spirit, cannot err. That was Christ's promise to us.

This seems to be a very common misunderstanding among even Catholics, who often tend to lump everything together as being "man made" and capable of error.

(As for priestly celibacy, it is a discipline, not a doctrine (the Eastern Catholic Church does permit married men to become priests). It is changeable. The matter of contraception, however, is not.)


 

Yes.  Papal infallibility and ecclesiastical/conciliar/etc infallibility are not the same thing, and can't be used interchangeably.

post #29 of 48
What I haven't seen mentioned here by those in favor of artificial contraceptive use (forgive me if I just missed it), is how they can account for hormonal birth control's abortifacient aspects. Using hormonal birth control can lead to an early abortion, and the user would never even know it. How can it be moral, in any circumstance, to use a thing that could inadvertently kill another human? Unless you also think the Church is wrong about abortions?

I could come to terms with the Church accepting sterilization or condom use long before I could come to terms with her allowing hormonal birth control. Although I agree with her teaching about these as well.

As for any anecdote where the good of the person, family, whatever is somehow going to be enhanced by using birth control (of any kind), I would remind us all that doing right is not always the easy path. The ends do not justify the means. Following Christ and his Church is, and has always been, difficult.

Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! Matthew 7:13-14
post #30 of 48

Gosh how did I miss this thread. This is something we have been struggling with. I have an autoimmune diseasethat  untreated I am unable to function. I am bedridden and unable to move. It is a struggle to use the bathroom let alone take care of my kids. There are several drugs out there to treat my PsA. All have failed except the high danger drugs for pregnancy. The ones I am on now it has a 100% chance that is 1-0-0 that the baby will die. Most died in the womb none have lived more then an hour after being born if they make it that far. It has a high mother mortality rate also something like 45%. The other drug I  has this incredible high birth defect rate also. Where does that leave me? If I do not take the drugs, I cannot parent my own children. If I do take the drug and get pregnant I have signed the death warrant for my child.

post #31 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mum4boys View Post

Gosh how did I miss this thread. This is something we have been struggling with. I have an autoimmune diseasethat  untreated I am unable to function. I am bedridden and unable to move. It is a struggle to use the bathroom let alone take care of my kids. There are several drugs out there to treat my PsA. All have failed except the high danger drugs for pregnancy. The ones I am on now it has a 100% chance that is 1-0-0 that the baby will die. Most died in the womb none have lived more then an hour after being born if they make it that far. It has a high mother mortality rate also something like 45%. The other drug I  has this incredible high birth defect rate also. Where does that leave me? If I do not take the drugs, I cannot parent my own children. If I do take the drug and get pregnant I have signed the death warrant for my child.

 

It leaves you following very strict rules with NFP so that you can take the appropriate medication and care for your children.

I would suggest either Creighton or Billings rather than STM
 

 

post #32 of 48

Actually NFP is not an option. It is too high of a gamble. 100% death for the baby and over 40% for me. I have gotten pregnant 9 days after ovulation. My numbers were sound even if my numbers were not sound (which they were) that brings me right back to square 1.

post #33 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mum4boys View Post

Actually NFP is not an option. It is too high of a gamble. 100% death for the baby and over 40% for me. I have gotten pregnant 9 days after ovulation. My numbers were sound even if my numbers were not sound (which they were) that brings me right back to square 1.



Then I honestly don't know.  That is something to take up with a good Orthodox priest and, perhaps, a canon lawyer.

post #34 of 48

I have taken it up with our priest. I still struggle with it. I do not even believe birth control is the answer either. I actually trust NFP more.

post #35 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mum4boys View Post

I have taken it up with our priest. I still struggle with it. I do not even believe birth control is the answer either. I actually trust NFP more.



I am sorry. I have been neither patient nor loving.

I wish I had an answer for you, I really do.

 

If you are on facebook, come over to the NFP group, maybe someone there will have a better chance to help you.

post #36 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by mum4boys View Post

I have taken it up with our priest. I still struggle with it. I do not even believe birth control is the answer either. I actually trust NFP more.


I'd trust NFP more, too, honestly. What about phase one BD only?
post #37 of 48

 

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mum4boys View Post

 100% death for the baby and over 40% for me. 


Seriously, is this not a situation in which sterilization can be considered therapeutic? A woman can justify a hysterectomy if she has cervical cancer, even if one of the side effects is that she can no longer conceive. What about a hysterectomy or tubal ligation to save her life and the lives of any future children, and allow her to be safely treated for a serious medical condition? It is not as if there is any alternative which would not be disastrous for her or her family. 

 



 
post #38 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post

 


Seriously, is this not a situation in which sterilization can be considered therapeutic? A woman can justify a hysterectomy if she has cervical cancer, even if one of the side effects is that she can no longer conceive. What about a hysterectomy or tubal ligation to save her life and the lives of any future children, and allow her to be safely treated for a serious medical condition? It is not as if there is any alternative which would not be disastrous for her or her family. 

 




I am not a canon lawyer or an expert on this, but I would theorize that the answer would be no. Her reproductive organs are not diseased in this case, so sterilizing her would not be permissible.

With cervical cancer, the uterus needs to be removed to keep the cancer from spreading. You're actually treating the disease and keeping it from spreading by removing the reproductive organs. The primary purpose is not sterilization.

In her case, the primary purpose would be sterilization and not treatment of her actual disease. The correct choice (again, IM layperson's O) would be strict NFP or abstinence. If the odds are truly 100% death for child, 40% chance for mom, I would think abstinence might be the better course.
post #39 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by lavatea View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by mum4boys View Post

I have taken it up with our priest. I still struggle with it. I do not even believe birth control is the answer either. I actually trust NFP more.




I'd trust NFP more, too, honestly. What about phase one BD only?


what is phase one BD only?

post #40 of 48
the marital act during phase one only
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Religious Studies
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Talk Amongst Ourselves › Spirituality › Religious Studies › Catholic Church and Artificial Birth Control/Contraception/Sterilization