The court will probably order the evaluation. Be sure to ask that your ex takes the same evaluation. A court would order that one, as well.
They want me to have a psych evaluation and some other stuff that would take 2-4 hours??? I am a nursing mom and it would be so hard to be away from either child for that long. Of course the court can order it...
I meet with the attorney I am going to hire today. I shared some websites with him and I am sure he knows about this stuff too. I almost feel like the GAL is turning against me now.
I am so numb. I am so scared.
I have my mom and dad, but my mom is so critical and acts as though my daughter is lying. I have a few friends. My daughter's therapist is AWESOME.
It probably is best if your daughter isn't around your mom. Your mom could do a lot of damage to her simply by telling her that she doesn't believe her. And I would not discuss the issue with your mom. It doesn't sound like she would be all that supportive and may actually increase your stress level.
Totally agree!!!!!!!
OP-- I am sure you probably noticed this, but I have to point it out anyhow. It seems like from time to time people join MDC and post one reply. I am guessing it is because they have Google alerts which alert them when a topic of interest comes up on the internet. I know this because I added google alerts to my email for something I wanted updates on. Just wanted to point this out because I am less trusting of these posts. Not like everyone in the MDC community is necessarily genuine, but I am just leary of this sort of thing. Especially this post which goes totally against my intuition. Judges can be completely terrible, and I've had a lot of experience in court for my job, but seriously, this seems far fetched. However, I have no personal experience with PAS, so maybe some other MDC mamas can shed some light on this post... I do have lots of experiences with therapists and social workers though (as I am one and half my friends are therapists) and my feeling on this is yes, you do have to convey to them that you'd go to the ends of the earth to protect your child.
Please go online to find lots of information about the "parental alienation set-up" which is what seems to be happening in your case.
Good sources of information online: Custody Prep for Moms, Justice for Children, The Leadership Council
Yes, but make sure both eval's are done by the same psychiatrist and that the person specializes in abuse.
The court will probably order the evaluation. Be sure to ask that your ex takes the same evaluation. A court would order that one, as well.
They want me to have a psych evaluation and some other stuff that would take 2-4 hours??? I am a nursing mom and it would be so hard to be away from either child for that long. Of course the court can order it...
julia i know you are right. i am living thru this nightmare with a friend of mine. who even has blood and physical evidence.
here is the PBS documentary in various parts on google video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leHE3AxcCdE
a completely unscientific study many judges are accepting.
but i dont want to scare OP too much. but yes definitely OP has to be prepared for things getting worse. for child abusers PAS is the only help they got to not get the stigma of being on hte predator list.
evevery situation is different. every judge is different. i am concerned this will just throw OP into total fear and freeze her.
Well so far I am in good graces of the court. Visitation has gone smoothly and exactly like it is supposed to, he even turned in a calendar showing that. I have never denied him even a phone call. I filed a ex-parte RO, which was granted and that's when calls/visits stopped.
I am in close contact with her therapist, as she checks in every day to see how my daughter is doing. I do share my fears. As far as talking with my daughter about the case, I don't do. She disclosed me to before that it happened and I reported it. This disclosure was made to her therapist. I am also present anytime she is interviewed, like when CPS came in.
So far I am obeying the law. If I am ordered a psychological exam, I will do it. I am just asking that the court appoints one and it's not one that the other party has tainted and chosen and yes he would have to take the same one. I did ask for supervised visits, but the Dr.s and CPS are saying no visits. I don't think I need to go overboard with voicing my concerns, as I think they are pretty apparent. I think that there are 3 Dr.s who are showing HIGH levels of concern.
I should note that he is not looking for anything more than local rule, which is everyother weekend and wednesday's. There is a current restraining order against his live in girlfriend that includes my daughter. So his live-in girlfriend would have to leave the home for my daughter to be there..so I am not even sure he is seeking local rule. The GAL report which was already done, says the girlfriend should not be around my daughter. In the parenting plan we already signed, the judge said the girlfriend could not be present during his time. Honestly, I don't think he is going to ask for very much based on this.
If the evaluator is good and fair and professional and an advocate for children, having the eval done by the same person is a good thing. (And yes, that's a big if.)
It's important to find out who the evaluator is and what they've done with other child abuse cases. That's why it helps to talk with others in your state who know about the "PAS" scam - to find out who's involved in that and who's not.
If the evaluator tours the state, lecturing about "PAS", that might be an indication that they're looking to drum up business for themselves by finding abusive fathers - and the attorneys who tend to represent abusive fathers - who can use that evaluator's services.
In terms of how the "parental alienation scam" works, it works better for the scam if both evals are done by the same evaluator who pushes the idea of "PAS" in abuse cases.
Many times, evaluators who do the custody and/or psych evals.for family courts, make their living doing them. They're very well connected with many of the attorneys in their state who also happen to make their living doing custody cases. Many "fathers rights" groups steer abusive fathers toward attorneys who use the "PAS" set-up and those attorneys steer the fathers and the judges toward evaluators who use the "PAS" set-up.
Most protective moms start out in this long process thinking, everyone is basically a good person and everyone is professional. Most moms think that as long as the same evaluator does all the evaluations, it will be fair and things will be okay.
This is part of the video, Domestic Violence Continued: Contested Child Custody Cases. In this video, two attorneys discuss the use of "PAS" as a strategy in court proceedings. I'm still trying to figure out if the attorney to the right is a "good guy" or a "bad guy". He uses the "PAS" scam - but is willing to tell the public about it...
Yes, but make sure both eval's are done by the same psychiatrist and that the person specializes in abuse.
The court will probably order the evaluation. Be sure to ask that your ex takes the same evaluation. A court would order that one, as well.
They want me to have a psych evaluation and some other stuff that would take 2-4 hours??? I am a nursing mom and it would be so hard to be away from either child for that long. Of course the court can order it...
The OP's attorney needs to make a few recommendations to the court about who they would like as an evaluator. Her ex's attorney gets to do the same. Then, in my case the GAL chose one (only we didn't make an recommendations, we could have). A court will most likely NOT allow the evals to be done by different people b/c then the evaluator is making conclusions about a person (the party not being evaluated) without meeting him/her. Which, as you can imagine, is completely unacceptable. The eval being done by the same person, allows the evaluator to meet both people, and make an objective conclusion about each. Unless they are by the same person, they hold close to zero legal weight.
If the evaluator is good and fair and professional and an advocate for children, having the eval done by the same person is a good thing. (And yes, that's a big if.)
Yes, but make sure both eval's are done by the same psychiatrist and that the person specializes in abuse.
The court will probably order the evaluation. Be sure to ask that your ex takes the same evaluation. A court would order that one, as well.
They want me to have a psych evaluation and some other stuff that would take 2-4 hours??? I am a nursing mom and it would be so hard to be away from either child for that long. Of course the court can order it...
Re the bolded:
1. I think stating that a mother wants supervised visitation is one thing. Repeating it ad nauseum is another - and not ok. The mother, or her attorney will need to state it in court at least once a court date, b/c there is no way around answering what the judge wants to know. That doesn't mean mom needs to get on the witness stand and talk about how she never wants her child to see his father again - that would be inapproriate.
2. This seems like pretty sound advice, although if the mother defers everything to the therapist, it may look like she's not being genuine. She can let the court know she's worried b/c of what the therapists and doctors are saying, and that she wanted to do supervised visits but that she was told not to. She can be a worried mother - that would be normal under the circumstances.
3. Children talk to their parents. Every single judge in this country knows that. It's ridiculous to think that by a child even mentioning something to her mother, the mother has this grand master plan. The child however, should NOT be asked to testify (unless she's old enough that her opinion would be considered seriously by the judge) b/c making her testify could further traumatize her. The expert witnesses are allowed to speculate about what role, if any, the mother played in the situation - and since ALL of them are saying NO VISITS so strongly, I don't see them changing their tune under oath.
ETA - The most important thing about going to court, is that your story MAKE SENSE. It has to follow logically, it needs to be understandable, with as few twists and turns in plot as possible. The clearer your story is to the judge, the more believable it is, the better off you are OP.
Would any of these sites you are recommending be yours?
Please go online to find lots of information about the "parental alienation set-up" which is what seems to be happening in your case.
Good sources of information online: Custody Prep for Moms, Justice for Children, The Leadership Council
Thanks Super Single Mama -
Your advice is probably better than mine in this case and my advice definitely carries baggage from the last 10 years of an absolute nightmare.
I probably responded the way I did in my comment because I also thought my daughter's therapist was great.
The state's prosecutor's office recommended her when the case was in the criminal court. Her therapist seemed to be helping my daughter get past the trauma from the abuse and I trusted her. She met with me a few times alone and a few times with my daughter and me. When she met with me alone, she asked me what I thought / felt etc. and I was honest with her. I believe that sexually abusing a child is one of the worst things one can do to a child. I believed at that time, and still believe, that my daughter's father abused her. I was afraid it would happen again.
The state's attorney's office was prosecuting my daughter's father for the crime. How could I be expected to encourage my daughter to trust her father when the state was engaged in their prosecution efforts, an expert in the field of child abuse believed the abuse occurred, her counselor of about a year - and all of the other professionals who interviewed her - believed the abuse occurred. Not only did I not trust him, I was terrified of what he would do to her and/or me. My daughter's therapist knew I was afraid of him - and actually felt the same way, because he threatened her and the staff at that office with threatening phone calls.
The criminal trial resulted in a hung jury and when the custody case began again, the family court judge asked my daughter's therapist if I was encouraging my daughter to have a relationship with her father. She was on the stand, she had to tell the truth and she did. At one point, the judge asked me if I wanted my daughter to have a relationship with her father. My answer was "Yes.". I knew I had to say "Yes." and I did, thinking to myself, "Yes, I would if I could know for sure that he wouldn't abuse her again." The judge later stated that she didn't believe that I wanted my daughter to have a relationship with her father.
I'm sure the last 10 years has left scars that I can't always see. If you happen to find more, please feel free to let me know where they are so I can see them too. I can do what I can to help, and can always use a little help with my helping!
Thanks again! 
Quote:
Re the bolded:
1. I think stating that a mother wants supervised visitation is one thing. Repeating it ad nauseum is another - and not ok. The mother, or her attorney will need to state it in court at least once a court date, b/c there is no way around answering what the judge wants to know. That doesn't mean mom needs to get on the witness stand and talk about how she never wants her child to see his father again - that would be inapproriate.
2. This seems like pretty sound advice, although if the mother defers everything to the therapist, it may look like she's not being genuine. She can let the court know she's worried b/c of what the therapists and doctors are saying, and that she wanted to do supervised visits but that she was told not to. She can be a worried mother - that would be normal under the circumstances.
3. Children talk to their parents. Every single judge in this country knows that. It's ridiculous to think that by a child even mentioning something to her mother, the mother has this grand master plan. The child however, should NOT be asked to testify (unless she's old enough that her opinion would be considered seriously by the judge) b/c making her testify could further traumatize her. The expert witnesses are allowed to speculate about what role, if any, the mother played in the situation - and since ALL of them are saying NO VISITS so strongly, I don't see them changing their tune under oath.
ETA - The most important thing about going to court, is that your story MAKE SENSE. It has to follow logically, it needs to be understandable, with as few twists and turns in plot as possible. The clearer your story is to the judge, the more believable it is, the better off you are OP.
I probably responded the way I did in my comment because I also thought my daughter's therapist was great.
The state's prosecutor's office recommended her when the case was in the criminal court. Her therapist seemed to be helping my daughter get past the trauma from the abuse and I trusted her. She met with me a few times alone and a few times with my daughter and me. When she met with me alone, she asked me what I thought / felt etc. and I was honest with her. I believe that sexually abusing a child is one of the worst things one can do to a child. I believed at that time, and still believe, that my daughter's father abused her. I was afraid it would happen again.
The state's attorney's office was prosecuting my daughter's father for the crime. How could I be expected to encourage my daughter to trust her father when the state was engaged in their prosecution efforts, an expert in the field of child abuse believed the abuse occurred, her counselor of about a year - and all of the other professionals who interviewed her - believed the abuse occurred. Not only did I not trust him, I was terrified of what he would do to her and/or me. My daughter's therapist knew I was afraid of him - and actually felt the same way, because he threatened her and the staff at that office with threatening phone calls.
And therein lies the difference between your situation and the OP's situation. Your dd started seeing her therapist after the investigation began. OP's dd started seeing this therapist before the nightmare began (or at least before there were any claims of abuse that could be substantiated). Another difference is that the OP's dd made the disclosure to her therapist, NOT her mother.
It may seem like the same thing, but its completely different. OP, from the facts I see, they make sense. Of COURSE your dd's father is going to make accusations of PAS - he has to say something to defend himself. He's not just going to lie down and take the beating (although we may wish that he would admit to it like a grown-up and deal). Work closely with your attorney, come up with the most easily understandable way to tell your story. If you're going to need to testify, practice makes perfect. Practice your testimony, with your lawyer, have your lawyer cross examine you and ask you every single thing he can think of.
good luck
Because it's not uncommon for spammers to post their websites in posts under the guise of being helpful. I just wanted to know if that was the case here.
Nope. Nope. And Nope. Although I wish they were. Will you please tell me why you would ask?
Would any of these sites you are recommending be yours?
Please go online to find lots of information about the "parental alienation set-up" which is what seems to be happening in your case.
Good sources of information online: Custody Prep for Moms, Justice for Children, The Leadership Council
I probably responded the way I did in my comment because I also thought my daughter's therapist was great.
The state's prosecutor's office recommended her when the case was in the criminal court. Her therapist seemed to be helping my daughter get past the trauma from the abuse and I trusted her. She met with me a few times alone and a few times with my daughter and me. When she met with me alone, she asked me what I thought / felt etc. and I was honest with her. I believe that sexually abusing a child is one of the worst things one can do to a child. I believed at that time, and still believe, that my daughter's father abused her. I was afraid it would happen again.
The state's attorney's office was prosecuting my daughter's father for the crime. How could I be expected to encourage my daughter to trust her father when the state was engaged in their prosecution efforts, an expert in the field of child abuse believed the abuse occurred, her counselor of about a year - and all of the other professionals who interviewed her - believed the abuse occurred. Not only did I not trust him, I was terrified of what he would do to her and/or me. My daughter's therapist knew I was afraid of him - and actually felt the same way, because he threatened her and the staff at that office with threatening phone calls.
And therein lies the difference between your situation and the OP's situation. Your dd started seeing her therapist after the investigation began. OP's dd started seeing this therapist before the nightmare began (or at least before there were any claims of abuse that could be substantiated). Another difference is that the OP's dd made the disclosure to her therapist, NOT her mother.
It may seem like the same thing, but its completely different. OP, from the facts I see, they make sense. Of COURSE your dd's father is going to make accusations of PAS - he has to say something to defend himself. He's not just going to lie down and take the beating (although we may wish that he would admit to it like a grown-up and deal). Work closely with your attorney, come up with the most easily understandable way to tell your story. If you're going to need to testify, practice makes perfect. Practice your testimony, with your lawyer, have your lawyer cross examine you and ask you every single thing he can think of.
good luck
Yes, my daughter has been seeing her therapist months before she disclosed the info. She had been seeing a therapist since August 2010 and her psychiatrist since November. I have a built relationship with both and I do trust both. Both are very concerned for not only my daughter, but for me. This wasn't court ordered, this was me trying to help my daughter from previous mental abuse from her father and his live-in girlfriend. We had been working together fine. I would never suspect abuse in a million years, in fact I was giving him more time than the original parenting plan. Also, yes, my daughter disclosed this to her therapist. She then disclosed the same info to a Dr in the ER, the CPS worker and her Dr.
I don't feel the situation is the same. I am afraid, but I don't think they are going to take my daughter out of my home. I just can't see them justifying that one. I also am working with everyone and cooperating, so I don't see myself being in a bad spotlight. Most the stories I am hearing about mothers going to jail and losing their children...ACK. I have already been shown to be a good mom. I also have another child(different father) and no one is concerned. Our main goal is to kinda stand back and let the Dr's take the lead. They are saying NO VISITS. I said supervised in my papers..so I think the judge will listen to 4 Dr.s and CPS? he'd be stupid to allow visits after those testimonies. I also don't see them changing their minds anytime soon, although I could be wrong, but I doubt I am. If I was to testify, I couldn't testify about much other than her behavior change. Like I said, all her disclosures have been to professionals.
Yes, my daughter has been seeing her therapist months before she disclosed the info. She had been seeing a therapist since August 2010 and her psychiatrist since November. I have a built relationship with both and I do trust both. Both are very concerned for not only my daughter, but for me. This wasn't court ordered, this was me trying to help my daughter from previous mental abuse from her father and his live-in girlfriend. We had been working together fine. I would never suspect abuse in a million years, in fact I was giving him more time than the original parenting plan. Also, yes, my daughter disclosed this to her therapist. She then disclosed the same info to a Dr in the ER, the CPS worker and her Dr.
I don't feel the situation is the same. I am afraid, but I don't think they are going to take my daughter out of my home. I just can't see them justifying that one. I also am working with everyone and cooperating, so I don't see myself being in a bad spotlight. Most the stories I am hearing about mothers going to jail and losing their children...ACK. I have already been shown to be a good mom. I also have another child(different father) and no one is concerned. Our main goal is to kinda stand back and let the Dr's take the lead. They are saying NO VISITS. I said supervised in my papers..so I think the judge will listen to 4 Dr.s and CPS? he'd be stupid to allow visits after those testimonies. I also don't see them changing their minds anytime soon, although I could be wrong, but I doubt I am. If I was to testify, I couldn't testify about much other than her behavior change. Like I said, all her disclosures have been to professionals.
I think you have a GREAT plan. When you testify (if you have to - lets hope it doesn't come to that) you can say, "If it is safe for my dd, I want her to be able to have a relationship. I've been conflicted, b/c the Dr's are saying no visits, and I'm trying to cooperate with the experts, but I would like my dd to have a relationship if its deemed to be safe and healthy for her."
NEVER waiver on that (not in public anyway, or to anyone who may testify against you - that means choosing carefully who you talk to about this - no one who could have conflicting loyalties, I would find a professional therapist who is yours only for you to speak to about all of your inner feelings and fears - even if its just so you have someone to vent to about the situation cause then you have doctor patient confidentiality that cannot be waived by anyone but you). Always always always talk about how you want it to be healthy and safe, but that you are not an expert in this and so you are trying to work with all the experts and do what you are supposed to.
The MOST important thing is to be honest, and unwavering in that all you are concerned about is your dd's well being. I really don't believe that you need to say a single negative thing about your ex - let the experts do that.
ETA - just one more thing. Just b/c all her disclosures have been to professionals so far, doesn't mean that she won't disclose to you as well. Have you spoken to her therapist about the best way to respond to her disclosing to you so that it can't be used against you? I so wish you were not going through this nightmare, I do think you will get through it with your dd still in your home, just be as prepared as a person possibly can be.
why would they remove her from my home? what would cause that?
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