A little bit of defiance

[Ellen Griswold]

I need some help with a reoccurring situation I have with a little girl I babysit.  B is 6 and in full day kindergarten.  I have her little brother 8+ hours and her for after school hours.  I have 3 kids of my own.  She seems to have troubles listening and following directions.  Not big things, but little things consistently.  She also seems to do this to get her mom's attention.

For example, this particular instance has happened twice now.  I tell her that her mom has just pulled in, time to get shoes and coats.  She drags along, never particularly wants to be all ready when mom comes in, seems to want her mom to tell her to get ready.  Yesterday, she starts to put on her snow pants (kinda a long process for the 10 feet she walks in my driveway to the car) and I say, "B, honey, you really don't need your snow pants for the ride home.  You'll be too hot with the heater on."  She sits there, looks at me, says nothing, and the instant her mom steps in, puts on the snow pants.  My ds, 7 yo, looks at me and says, "I thought you said not to put the snowpants on."  Her mom says, "yeah, B, you don't need those."  She continues to put the snowpants on and mom doesn't do anything to stop her.  Now, I don't blame her mom.  Mom has had a long day at work, gets to spend limited time with the kids, and B putting on the snowpants isn't a hill to die on for her.  I'd feel the same.  Except, my own children are watching B defy me.  And this is only one example.  It happens in lots of other little subtle ways.  It seems insignificant maybe, but I'm worried that my children (my 3 yo dd, especially) is learning that it's okay to not listen to me.  Any thoughts on what I can do?  Today, I'll likely make sure that the stupid snowpants are not accessible, but this is just one piece of the giant puzzle.

[ollyoxenfree]

Honestly? What you describe with the snow pants doesn't sound like defiance to me. She wanted to wear her snow pants, for whatever reason. You were the one making it an issue. And you didn't say "Don't put on your snow pants", you suggested she didn't need them - there is a difference. She had already decided that she did. So when she kept on putting them on, she wasn't disobeying a direct order, she just wasn't taking your suggestion. I don't really see that as "defiant". 

I don't expect complete obedience from children and I don't think they need me to make every decision, like what to wear, for them. If a child has a strong need to make their own decisions, then that should be viewed positively and encouraged - or at least not discouraged - unless it's a matter of health or safety. These children are going to be able to resist peer and community pressure as they grow older. I'd far rather have a child who displays a healthy sense of autonomy than one who is passive and obedient in all things. 

[mamazee]

Yeah, I don't think this is defiance either.  If you had said, "Do not put on your snowpants" then maybe, although I don't know why you'd care that much whether she wears her snowpants.  And her mom probably lets her wear them if she wants because they're her snowpants and her legs.

I'd try to not frame it as "defiance" every time a child wants something other than what you want.  It's just her wanting to do things her way.  That's really a healthy thing, but if you think of it as "defiance" it will make you more emotionally invested in the situation than snowpants probably warrant.

[nextcommercial]

Sometimes as soon as you start a power struggle, certain kids won't back down.  Certain personalities can't stand to be told what to do.  It's very irritating, and the attitude that goes with it is sometimes what bothers us the most.  But, that same personality is the type that get things done as adults.  They are the motivated people who can finish a job without being told what to do.  It's actually a little endearing in 20 years.

So, if you think about it differently you can avoid these things in the first place.  Instead of saying "You don't need your snow pants, you'll just get hot", ask "Do you want to wear those?  Or just carry them?".  It's her body, if she's hot, she's hot.  It's not up to you to save her from herself.  She might be the kid who needs to learn the hard way.  But, I bet she's the kid who doesn't like to be told her idea is a bad idea.  It's like when your mom said "I'm cold, put on a sweater".  

Maybe those snow pants are really awesome to her.  Maybe she was hoping that if she was already dressed for snow, mom would let her stop and play with the neighbor kids for a while.  Who knows what she was thinking when she put them on, but it wasn't worth the battle, because you didn't have to dress her or undress her.   (if I had to take those pants back off of her in ten minutes, I'd say "no way, you aren't wearing those")  

I HATE high top shoes.  I can't understand why people would ever think of sending their kids to day care in those stupid shoes.  So, as soon as those shoes come off in my house, they stay off for the rest of the day, and I make Mom put them back on.  Because I have learned that if I let them put them on at 3:00.. I'll have to take them back off at 3:30.  Then they want them back on at 3:45.  So, I do draw a line in the sand if it effects me, but if it doesn't, I don't care if they wear three pairs of snow pants.

[limabean]

I can see how that'd be frustrating to deal with for hours each day. But I agree with the PPs that it's best to only start a power struggle over something if it is a hill to die on for you. Sometimes I've given one of my kids a directive and they don't go along with it and I find myself thinking, "Oh great, now do I have to follow through just to 'win,' even though I don't actually really care about this issue?" I hate doing that.

So I've learned to say, "You know what? I've changed my mind -- it's no big deal to me if you want to do that." And I've also learned to rephrase things in the first place (making suggestions rather than giving orders) if the directive isn't something I'm willing to follow through on. 

[Tigerchild]

I think you may have missed an opportunity with your own children to say, "Wow, how silly of me!  Why was I getting upset over snowpants?  Wearing snowpants doesn't affect B's safety.  She didn't ask me to help, so I didn't have to do anything.  I think it would have been fine if I'd just given B the choice whether to wear them or not, it's good for kids to have choices sometimes, sometimes parents/caregivers aren't so great at giving choice though.  Oh well, now I know that's something to think about."

Unless you are overly invested in immediate obedience in all things by your children, I don't think you have much to worry about.  If you are indeed truly worried that a child not taking your suggestion as a command, then may I gently suggest that perhaps it's not the kid that you need to examine, but yourself, your expectations, your standards, ect?  If your suggestion is immediate compliance with all suggestions, then your kids will disappoint you at some point, even if your nanny kid didn't even exist.

[Ellen Griswold]

I totally get what you all are saying, don't get me wrong.  I could care less about the snow pants.  What I care about is the pattern.  This TYPE of thing (not snowpants) happens every day.  As in, mom walks in, B climbs the back of the couch, dh point-blank asks her to stop, mom tells her to stop, she climbs the couch.  10 minutes before mom comes B asks for food from her lunch box, I say no (per mom's request), mom walks in, B gets the snack out, mom says don't, B eats it.  Lately, she really wants to hold my 2 mo.  She's welcome to do so - little one only tolerates anyone but me for just so long, but I let her do it.  Now she wants to walk with her.  I'm NOT comfortable with that.  Baby will occasionally tolerate the bouncy seat as I make dinner.  Mom walks in, B asks to hold baby, mom says we need to go home, and I'm waiting for the day when she tries to pick her up anyway.  I DO talk to my kids about it and what they see, but I think my 3 yo is more interested in what she sees her friend doing as opposed to what mommy is trying to say.  And I guess I will say that I do expect my kids to listen to me.

[Alyantavid]

I think it's very typical for daycare kids to do this kind of thing at pickup.  Both of mine did it for awhile, but one of you needs to step in and be in charge.  What do you do when she does something she shouldn't when mom is there?  React the same way.  I think kids know that at this transition, mom doesn't want to be the bad guy (she just got there) and you don't want to either because mom's there. 

My provider totally backs off once I get there.  So I have to step up and enforce whatever rules she's told him, whether it's something I care about or not.  Which works extremely well, let me tell you. 

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Originally Posted by Ellen Griswold 

I totally get what you all are saying, don't get me wrong.  I could care less about the snow pants.  What I care about is the pattern.  This TYPE of thing (not snowpants) happens every day.  As in, mom walks in, B climbs the back of the couch, dh point-blank asks her to stop, mom tells her to stop, she climbs the couch.  10 minutes before mom comes B asks for food from her lunch box, I say no (per mom's request), mom walks in, B gets the snack out, mom says don't, B eats it.  Lately, she really wants to hold my 2 mo.  She's welcome to do so - little one only tolerates anyone but me for just so long, but I let her do it.  Now she wants to walk with her.  I'm NOT comfortable with that.  Baby will occasionally tolerate the bouncy seat as I make dinner.  Mom walks in, B asks to hold baby, mom says we need to go home, and I'm waiting for the day when she tries to pick her up anyway.  I DO talk to my kids about it and what they see, but I think my 3 yo is more interested in what she sees her friend doing as opposed to what mommy is trying to say.  And I guess I will say that I do expect my kids to listen to me.

Those issues are completely different.  I would NEVER tolerate someone climbing on my couch, or eating food in my house.  Even if it's their own food.  I'd take the lunch box away and say "You can eat this in Mom's car".  But, there is no way, she'd open food in my house and stand there eating it.  (we eat at the table in the kitchen only) 

I have no problems disciplining a child in front of the mom.  Mom is tired, she's stressed, she doesn't know how to deal with her daughter in front of you.  So, you need to do it.  A firm "OFF THE COUCH NOW" would be my first response.  I put one child out my front door once, because she was throwing a tantrum and kicking my piano while Mom begged her to please be nice.  So, I opened the front door, walked her out and closed the door.  (mom was still inside)  But, ya know what?  She never did anything like that in my house again.  She was older than the child you are talking about, and there was no snow on the ground, so I'm not suggesting throwing a six year old out in the snow.  But, maybe some variation.

Pick all your battles.  For me, it would be "no food" and "Stay off my couch".  But, you may have different battle lines.  Pick what's most important to you, and expect respect from her in those areas.  What she and mom do at home are not your problem... how she treats you in your home is your problem.  

Also consider that at six, she's tired, she probably IS hungry.  She might need to flop on the floor and watch one tv show after school.  She probably needs to eat a large snack after school. (practically a whole meal)   There are lots of reasons that after school care is hard on kids.  It's a long day for them.  If she's honestly reallllly hungry, she's waiting for mom because mom won't enforce it... she SAYS "no", but she doesn't mean "no".
 

[Ellen Griswold]

I think I'm hesitant to step on mom's toes because I would be TICKED if somebody tried to parent my child when I was there, but maybe mom doesn't feel this way.  B is a nice, pleasant, happy child.  She doesn't really do anything like this when her mom isn't here.  I mean, she's not perfect, doesn't always want to pick up, and can be whiny....you know, she's 6!  The trouble is just at pickup.

[Alyantavid]

Originally Posted by Ellen Griswold 

I think I'm hesitant to step on mom's toes because I would be TICKED if somebody tried to parent my child when I was there, but maybe mom doesn't feel this way.  B is a nice, pleasant, happy child.  She doesn't really do anything like this when her mom isn't here.  I mean, she's not perfect, doesn't always want to pick up, and can be whiny....you know, she's 6!  The trouble is just at pickup.

Well since you're her child care provider, you're not really trying to parent her child period right?

If the mom isn't going to do anything, you have to.  Or else just accept that this is how the pick up will be every day. 

[pianojazzgirl]

I guess in those instances (couch and food) I'd see it less as stepping on the mom's toes (trying to parent her child), but rather enforcing *your* house rules.  If some kid is climbing all over my couch and that is not ok with me and the mom knows it's not ok with me but doesn't really step up to make sure her dc gets off the couch then I totally think it's within my rights to go over to said kid and gently but firmly make sure she gets off my couch.  Or, I could say to the mom "please get your dc off my couch"... but that seems much more awkward that just dealing with it myself, yk.  Especially since the mom (like pps have pointed out) is probably stressed out, tired from a day at work, unsure about how she should deal with her child's behaviour during this transition time, etc. 

[mamazee]

Yeah by all means get her off your couch.  That's your couch.  Not the same as the snowpants at all.  You don't have to wait and see if the mom protects your furniture.

[Ellien C]

Originally Posted by Ellen Griswold 

I think I'm hesitant to step on mom's toes because I would be TICKED if somebody tried to parent my child when I was there, but maybe mom doesn't feel this way.  B is a nice, pleasant, happy child.  She doesn't really do anything like this when her mom isn't here.  I mean, she's not perfect, doesn't always want to pick up, and can be whiny....you know, she's 6!  The trouble is just at pickup.

and from my perspective, AT the daycare is still under the daycare's rules - so the provider should be doing whatever they would do if I wasn't there - 'cause I don't always know the rules. That drop off and pick-up can be very difficult. *I'm* sometimes uncertain what to do when the day care has made some rule (that I don't care about) and I'm not sure who is supposed to enforce it or how.

I wouldn't consider the day care enforcing their rules "parenting" in my absence. To me, it's just a rule of the place - and how they enforce it. \

[Tigerchild]

How about a nice email to the mom saying "Hey, I've been feeling kinda weird because I have rules at my home that I really need to enforce.  I haven't been because it feels weird to do it while you're there--but I bet you feel just as weird as I do about it!  So here's the deal, I'm going to start enforcing the rules at pickup.  Would it be easier on you if I just did that right away?  or do you want an opportunity to do it before I step in?  I bet if we are both consistent for awhile, it won't be an issue anymore, but I don't want pick up to be a grumpy time of either of us, and if my house rules keep getting disregarded, it will probably be grumpy for all three of us!"

[Snowflake777]

I don't have much to add, except to say that it wouldn't phase me at all if one of DD's daycare teachers enforced a rule while I was there during pick up. I'd probably figure that there had been something leading up to it and that the teacher had good reason for doing so, even if I didn't understand it myself because I'd just arrived on the scene.

It would bug me like crazy if a guest in my house were to try to parent my daughter with me right there, but the situation you're describing is different. As long as we're still at daycare, DD needs to listen to her teachers.

I agree with the others that the mother is probably tired and frazzled after work and maybe not realizing what's going on. Assuming she's a reasonable type, I'd probably just talk it over (or send a quick email) when you have a moment.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Snowflake777 

I don't have much to add, except to say that it wouldn't phase me at all if one of DD's daycare teachers enforced a rule while I was there during pick up. I'd probably figure that there had been something leading up to it and that the teacher had good reason for doing so, even if I didn't understand it myself because I'd just arrived on the scene.

It would bug me like crazy if a guest in my house were to try to parent my daughter with me right there, but the situation you're describing is different. As long as we're still at daycare, DD needs to listen to her teachers.

I agree with the others that the mother is probably tired and frazzled after work and maybe not realizing what's going on. Assuming she's a reasonable type, I'd probably just talk it over (or send a quick email) when you have a moment.

Yup.  I actually appreciate it, b/c I have to get ds's stuff together at daycare while I'm there to pick him up, and its much easier if they enforce the daycare rules for me.  Then I can enforce my rules once we leave.

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by Ellen Griswold 

I totally get what you all are saying, don't get me wrong.  I could care less about the snow pants.  What I care about is the pattern.  This TYPE of thing (not snowpants) happens every day.  As in, mom walks in, B climbs the back of the couch, dh point-blank asks her to stop, mom tells her to stop, she climbs the couch.  10 minutes before mom comes B asks for food from her lunch box, I say no (per mom's request), mom walks in, B gets the snack out, mom says don't, B eats it.  Lately, she really wants to hold my 2 mo.  She's welcome to do so - little one only tolerates anyone but me for just so long, but I let her do it.  Now she wants to walk with her.  I'm NOT comfortable with that.  Baby will occasionally tolerate the bouncy seat as I make dinner.  Mom walks in, B asks to hold baby, mom says we need to go home, and I'm waiting for the day when she tries to pick her up anyway.  I DO talk to my kids about it and what they see, but I think my 3 yo is more interested in what she sees her friend doing as opposed to what mommy is trying to say.  And I guess I will say that I do expect my kids to listen to me.

Originally Posted by Ellen Griswold 

I think I'm hesitant to step on mom's toes because I would be TICKED if somebody tried to parent my child when I was there, but maybe mom doesn't feel this way.  B is a nice, pleasant, happy child.  She doesn't really do anything like this when her mom isn't here.  I mean, she's not perfect, doesn't always want to pick up, and can be whiny....you know, she's 6!  The trouble is just at pickup.

Transition times are really difficult, especially for some children. If she's normally a nice, pleasant child and doesn't really do anything when the mom isn't there, then I don't think she's really being "defiant". She's having trouble making the transition. She's probably overwhelmed with the excitement of mom's arrival, the need to stop whatever she was engaged in, saying good-bye to her friends and you, putting her attention into the tasks she needs to complete to leave..... She's probably tired and hungry and struggling with her blood sugar dipping too. They don't call it arsenic hour for nothing. 

When you agreed to take care of her, how did you and the mom decide you would handle problems when they came up? Did you plan a weekly meeting to discuss how things are going or did you agree on a regular e-mail report or some other routine exchange? This seems like the sort of thing you could put on the agenda to discuss with mom - how best to manage the transition times and to clarify that you'll enforce house rules even if she is there, unless she prefers to do it.

As for the child's actual behaviour, you say  

Originally Posted by Ellen Griswold 

 What I care about is the pattern.  This TYPE of thing (not snowpants) happens every day.  .

The other things you describe ARE a different type of thing, though. The snowpants are hers and whether she wears them or not, it really only affects her. These other things all affect other people. Jumping on the couch is potentially damaging to something that is yours. Holding the baby may cause an injury to the baby. The lunchbox thing is something else. Personally, I think people should eat when they are hungry, so it  wouldn't bother me, but presumably the mom doesn't want her snacking close to dinner time. In any event, eating can create a mess for you to clean up, so again that has a consequence beyond her. I definitely understand why you want to enforce these rules. It seems like a "pick your battles" kind of thing to me. Snow pants, I'd let go, but jumping on the couch deserves your intervention. 

As for "expecting children to listen to you".....I suspect you mean you expect your children to OBEY you. She probably is listening - but she can't hear you over her overwhelming and conflicting emotions. You may want to read up a little on spirited children and how best to help them manage themselves. 

In any event, I'd try to make transition times easier. Give her lots of early warning and let her help you get her stuff ready to go. Let her snack on something healthy about 30 to 45 minutes before pick-up. Ask her mom to call you when she's about 10 minutes away, so you can prepare the girl. Possibly, you could all be outside playing when mom arrives and that might make things easier. 

Good luck. 

[One_Girl]

I don't think putting on snow pants is something that really counts as defiance, not even a little bit.  You didn't tell her not to put them on you told her she didn't need them and she would be to hot and she chose to wear them anyways.  Your kids may understand that when you suggest something you are really not offering a choice, but that isn't something I would expect other people to understand.  If the other small things are like that then I think you should make a habit of making a suggestion but letting her decide so you take it from being a defiance situation to being her choice.  When kids feel like they don't have a lot of choice they often act out and try to take choices and power so giving them some choice and decision making power can actually help make life run a lot more smoothly.  The little things are the best for giving up because they really don't matter that much. 

A lot of kids dawdle when their mom comes because they need more time for the transition so I don't think that is a big deal.  I think the other things you describe sound like the normal transition of "power" from sitter to mom.  It is a gray area and kids often take advantage of it because no one seems to be in charge at that time.  I use the phrase "your mom wants you to do/not do X now so lets go do it" or "remember in this house we don't climb on X" and that helps keep the focus on backing up mom while also enforcing the house rules. 

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

 Your kids may understand that when you suggest something you are really not offering a choice, but that isn't something I would expect other people to understand.  

This is an excellent point. I never think that a suggestion is actually a request or a direct order. I wouldn't expect that a 6 y.o. would understand it either.