"The View", again

[Janice in Canada]

I don't know who is still around, that remembers "The View" Nurse-In in NYC at the ABC studios,  - I helped organize that one.

Anyhow....

aaack - why do I still watch The View????

 

Today Dr. Oz was a guest, he was saying moms are so stressed during pregnancy because of all the things they are told to do. Just at the end of the segment, Barbara Walters just had to make sure to fit in one more question - what about breastfeeding vs. bottlefeeding.

 

He said, and I quote (I wrote it down) "If you are going to be stressed about breastfeeding, then bottlefeed". Elisabeth says "thank you for that"... end of segment. 

Janice

[April420]

Way to go Dr. Oz...you probably just encouraged hundreds of women NOT to breastfeed! Yet another doctor giving bad advice...thanks a lot!

[Janice in Canada]

Okay, I am obsessed.  Darn PVR, lets me watch it over and over again so I can transcribe it perfectly.

( Barbara is holding up her finger, she must be able to see they are running out of time, and Dr.Oz is talking about an entirely different topic, but she obviously wants to get this question in before the end of the segment)

Barbara:

Can I ask you one quick question, the whole debate about breastfeeding and bottlefeeding, if a woman does not breastfeed and she’s using the bottle, how bad is that,  or does it make that much of a difference?

Dr. Oz:

With the new formula…   (pause, starts again)   It makes a difference, you are better off breastfeeding.  Its another great example.  Women are so stressed out about this, because they got to go back to work.  If you are going to be stressed about breastfeeding, then bottlefeed.

Elisabeth:

Thanks for giving women that, that freedom, Dr. Oz”

I suppose, one could think they are talking about pumping and bottlefeeding, but I assume not. 

[carepear]

Right, because Dr. Oz says it then it must be okay and I can now absolve my self of all guilt for formula feeding.  As I sit here at work with my pump attached to my boob for the last 30 minutes.

Its not easy but I really wish society would stop giving moms permission to not do what is best for their baby.

[carepear]

Lol I must have been a little pissy. Sometimes I just get ticked with people complaining about how it's hard/stressful/frustrating, etc.

[FAmom]

Please bear with me.  I saw that too.  I currently am breast feeding a toddler, and breast fed both of my other children.  I don't have friends.  I don't have but one family member for support.  I've done it on my own, with my DH, living in an area where BF'ing your child at this point is an oddity.  I still do it.  

That said, I will give you an example that I think is good to see that there is another side, that hearing permission, even if it is from a doctor on TV, can be helpful.... because, we are human.

A cousin in the family is going to med school.  She got pregnant and was able to work her schedule such that she did a great job getting the later part of her pregnancy, the birth, and a good chunk of time after the birth, to be at home with her child.  Her DH is also in med school.  I honestly don't know how they do it, but they are young and still have energy.

Anyway, she breast fed her child.  It was important to her.  She felt bad about knowing that at one point she would have to stop to go back to school.  But, she had to.  

So, she breast fed as long as she could, she pumped and froze as much milk as she could, and when she went back to med school she had to stop.  And that included pumping.  Why?  Because at the point she was at, she was going to be around chemicals that could possibly be absorbed and passed through her milk.

Sure, one could say, well forget med school, stay home and breast feed.  Forget that part, do it later, do whatever.... but, sometimes, though we may want something else, it just isn't to be.

And, she, just like I, doesn't have a strong support system.  That sometimes, when you are out there in the world, listening to a lot of opinions, and being told you are a bad Mom if you don't breast feed, or any number of things that Moms get barraged with, it sometimes is comforting to hear at least one voice that doesn't make you feel worse than you already do, or make you feel guilty about something, or any number of things.

I appreciate what he said, in a bigger picture sense.  We are all human.  We should give each other leeway.  I cried for the first month of breast feeding with my first son.  I was like a garden fountain, and I had cracked sore nipples, and I couldn't get the latching to save my life.  It was misery.  Nobody told me anything about that.  Nobody was around.... except for DH. He had time off of work, and could help me.  But we were both winging it.  We made it through.

But, now, whether it is having to go back to work, go back to school, having medical problem, or even if you just can't (because there are some people that just can't), I do believe it is better for a child to be in an environment where they are nourished and their parents are less stressed, than being in an environment where everyone is forced to make something work that just won't for them.

Sure, we all should be in a place where public approval shouldn't matter.  That what people say shouldn't affect how we feel, and we can go about doing what we are going to do.

It just isn't so.  We are human.  We need to cut people slack, and we really need to cut other Moms some slack too.  

[treeoflife3]

I agree with PP... in the big picture, dr oz is right.  If breastfeeding just is NOT working, seeking out donated milk or just going to formula is a good choice.  DMER is a good example of when I think it is perfectly okay to decide NOT to breastfeed because it might actually be better for kiddo.  I think it is okay to remind people that if it is 'too' hard, its okay to stop.  formula isn't perfect, but its better than going insane with stress and frustration.

With that said though, I understand the annoyance with this quote.  How it was said is unfair and sets it up to be too easy to just back out of nursing.  Starting out, breastfeeding CAN be hard but the first step shouldn't just be 'meh, I won't do it then.' and that is what is missing from Dr. Oz's quote.  Yes, if it IS too hard... it IS okay to quit... but there are options before quitting that should be explored if possible.  He could have said that and he didn't.  That is the real problem.  He was right but only half right.  He should have included that there are options before quitting such as seeking out LLL and that not breastfeeding doesn't have to mean not giving breastmilk.  pumping and donated milk are options as well.

but I think most lactivists can agree.  if it just is NOT working for mom... then baby is going to feed off that.  sometimes its best for baby not to nurse because babies need a sane and happy mama.  I think people quit too soon for a variety of reasons, but some people I think should quit.

[FAmom]

I just wanted to add.... kind of in fairness to Dr. Oz, the segment was wrapping up, and to me, it was like that question was thrown at him by Barbara Walters.  Elizabeth basically said thank you to that and went to the book plug and letting the audience know they got a copy of his book.

And, I kind of get the impression from watching Dr. Oz's show sometimes that he would really be on board with what treeoflife says.  He has a lot of "outside of the box" thinking and ideas for someone who is a doctor of western medicine.  He has a lot of natural home remedy, holistic and alternative type of suggestions whenever I've seen him for things.

I almost hate when they have things like this anyway on these shows because you do have situations where they are talking about stupid gossipy stuff for 4 1/2 of the 5 minute segment, then in the last 30 seconds someone thinks to ask a decent question and there is no time to answer and get the book plug in.  It is really lame.

[swede]

Originally Posted by treeoflife3 

I agree with PP... in the big picture, dr oz is right.  If breastfeeding just is NOT working, seeking out donated milk or just going to formula is a good choice.  DMER is a good example of when I think it is perfectly okay to decide NOT to breastfeed because it might actually be better for kiddo.  I think it is okay to remind people that if it is 'too' hard, its okay to stop.  formula isn't perfect, but its better than going insane with stress and frustration.

With that said though, I understand the annoyance with this quote.  How it was said is unfair and sets it up to be too easy to just back out of nursing.  Starting out, breastfeeding CAN be hard but the first step shouldn't just be 'meh, I won't do it then.' and that is what is missing from Dr. Oz's quote.  Yes, if it IS too hard... it IS okay to quit... but there are options before quitting that should be explored if possible.  He could have said that and he didn't.  That is the real problem.  He was right but only half right.  He should have included that there are options before quitting such as seeking out LLL and that not breastfeeding doesn't have to mean not giving breastmilk.  pumping and donated milk are options as well.

but I think most lactivists can agree.  if it just is NOT working for mom... then baby is going to feed off that.  sometimes its best for baby not to nurse because babies need a sane and happy mama.  I think people quit too soon for a variety of reasons, but some people I think should quit.

I understand what you're saying.  But what if changing diapers was "just NOT working for mom".  Would people suggest she just not change diapers?  Or holding her baby.  If that wasn't working for mom, would people suggest she just not hold her baby?  I am pretty sure, people would encourage mom to continue keep doing what she is supposed to and what is best for baby.
 

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by carepear 

Right, because Dr. Oz says it then it must be okay and I can now absolve my self of all guilt for formula feeding.  As I sit here at work with my pump attached to my boob for the last 30 minutes.

Its not easy but I really wish society would stop giving moms permission to not do what is best for their baby.

That's the thing - a mom should not need permission from anyone to choose to not breastfeed. I agree with Dr. Oz - if it is just too overwhelming or stressful for a mom then formula may be the better choice.

[swede]

Originally Posted by TCMoulton 





That's the thing - a mom should not need permission from anyone to choose to not breastfeed. I agree with Dr. Oz - if it is just too overwhelming or stressful for a mom then formula may be the better choice.

what if a mom chose not to change her baby's diaper?  Would that be okay?

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by swede 

what if a mom chose not to change her baby's diaper?  Would that be okay?

Obviously those are not really comparable since there is not an alternative for diapering a child (with the exception of EC) but there are alternatives for breast milk. Dr Oz himself that breast milk is best for the baby but there are situations where formula is an appropriate choice.

[jeanine123]

But breastmilk isn't the best for baby.  It's the standard, the norm.  If it were phrased in that way would formula continue to be just as acceptable of an option?

[treeoflife3]

I can't remember everything from my logic and reasoning classes but this is either a strawman argument or a red herring.  Changing diapers is a completely different situation from breastfeeding. 

Changing diapers doesn't require the kind of hormones that breastfeeding does.

Changing diapers doesn't run the risk of causing a woman to be touched out and start to resent her child if her baby needs to nurse almost constantly or if mom is suffering from PPD.

The only alternatives to changing diapers are leaving a child sitting in filth until someone else is there to do it (which starts the argument on whether or not that is better or worse than having formula once mom has decided she can't nurse any longer) or elimination communication which has its own set of cons that don't work for all families and situations.

Diapers need to be changed.  Babies need to eat.  that is the only comparison you can make between the two.

Telling a woman she HAS to breastfeed no matter what because she also has to change diapers no matter what sets up many women for failure when she finds herself in a position of needing to stop whether she feels formula is an equal alternative or not.  there are people on this site actually who have made the decision not to nurse their young infants because they suffer from DMER and other treatment options weren't working.  Sometimes the choice is being an emotional mess which is unhealthy for baby and older siblings, or switch to formula and enjoy the children you have.

Originally Posted by swede 

Originally Posted by TCMoulton 





That's the thing - a mom should not need permission from anyone to choose to not breastfeed. I agree with Dr. Oz - if it is just too overwhelming or stressful for a mom then formula may be the better choice.

what if a mom chose not to change her baby's diaper?  Would that be okay?

[HollyBearsMom]

Originally Posted by swede 

Originally Posted by TCMoulton 





That's the thing - a mom should not need permission from anyone to choose to not breastfeed. I agree with Dr. Oz - if it is just too overwhelming or stressful for a mom then formula may be the better choice.

what if a mom chose not to change her baby's diaper?  Would that be okay?

bolding mine.

Seriously?  this is a serious question?  not changing diapers results in child sitting in filth, eventually causing infections due bed sores, severe diaper rash, etc. Mother faces potential loss of child due to neglect.  

Not breast feeding results in child being fed formula. Yes, not a ideal as breast milk but still being fed. Potentially thriving. 

How do you even compare the two?? 

I am a lactavist who believes all mothers should breast feed for 12-18 months minimum but having close friends who are cancer survivors (no breasts on to which breast feed) and a mother of triplets (2 who were diagnosed with failure to thrive) who had to supplement I get that formula is sometimes needed and often welcomed.

Who am I to judge the why behind it?
 

[April420]

I am also a lactivist that believes children should be nursed for a minimum of 2 years. I get that some Moms just don't WANT to do it and that is within their rights. I do wish more moms would own up to not wanting to. Instead they say things like, "I ran out of milk when he was 2 weeks old"   or "my baby just didn't like my milk" . The problem I have is that these type of comments tend to give other women the wrong information. For example, when a baby "doesn't like the milk"  it can be a sign of hindmilk/foremilk imblance, which causes babies to become gassy. Also, milk doesn't just dry up overnight...we are milk making factories, not milk storage factories.  Thus, "my milk ran out at 2 weeks" is probably the thought Mom has when her newborn wants to nurse several times an hour, every hour (which makes it seem like he/she is starving, but marthon nursing is what most newborns do). Also, I have NEVER heard a fellow lactivist tell another Mom that she is a bad Mom for not breastfeeding. I just don't believe there are women out there that actually say that!   :(  

[swede]

Originally Posted by April420 

I am also a lactivist that believes children should be nursed for a minimum of 2 years. I get that some Moms just don't WANT to do it and that is within their rights. I do wish more moms would own up to not wanting to. Instead they say things like, "I ran out of milk when he was 2 weeks old"   or "my baby just didn't like my milk" . The problem I have is that these type of comments tend to give other women the wrong information. For example, when a baby "doesn't like the milk"  it can be a sign of hindmilk/foremilk imblance, which causes babies to become gassy. Also, milk doesn't just dry up overnight...we are milk making factories, not milk storage factories.  Thus, "my milk ran out at 2 weeks" is probably the thought Mom has when her newborn wants to nurse several times an hour, every hour (which makes it seem like he/she is starving, but marthon nursing is what most newborns do). Also, I have NEVER heard a fellow lactivist tell another Mom that she is a bad Mom for not breastfeeding. I just don't believe there are women out there that actually say that!   :(  

exactly.  I was mostly responding to the idea that "yay for dr. oz for giving women permission to quit if they want to".  I mean, when else would we "give permission" to someone for not wanting to do what her baby needs? 
 

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by swede 

Originally Posted by April420 

I am also a lactivist that believes children should be nursed for a minimum of 2 years. I get that some Moms just don't WANT to do it and that is within their rights. I do wish more moms would own up to not wanting to. Instead they say things like, "I ran out of milk when he was 2 weeks old"   or "my baby just didn't like my milk" . The problem I have is that these type of comments tend to give other women the wrong information. For example, when a baby "doesn't like the milk"  it can be a sign of hindmilk/foremilk imblance, which causes babies to become gassy. Also, milk doesn't just dry up overnight...we are milk making factories, not milk storage factories.  Thus, "my milk ran out at 2 weeks" is probably the thought Mom has when her newborn wants to nurse several times an hour, every hour (which makes it seem like he/she is starving, but marthon nursing is what most newborns do). Also, I have NEVER heard a fellow lactivist tell another Mom that she is a bad Mom for not breastfeeding. I just don't believe there are women out there that actually say that!   :(  

exactly.  I was mostly responding to the idea that "yay for dr. oz for giving women permission to quit if they want to".  I mean, when else would we "give permission" to someone for not wanting to do what her baby needs? 
 

Where did anyone give moms permission to not meet a baby's needs? While not optimal, a baby's need for nutrition can certainly be met with formula.

[angela67j]

We hold in our arms the future for breastfeeding to become the norm....our daughtures will feel confident to breastfeed and stand firm in their beliefs and our sons will feel comfortable encouraging their wives/lp to breastfeed. My mom didn't have support to breastfeed her children and truly wished she had....but she stood by me and encouraged me. My mil breastfeed all her children and stood by and offered advice. We can only share info with those who have open minds and hearts. I have had several friends ask me to help them breastfeed and I tried the best I could but they were to worried about social norms and not being confident in their bodies to nuture their babies. Dr Oz gives bad advice left and right....doctors are not gods and you should only use them as sources of information to gather and make your own decisions. I love breastfeeding and never grew up knowing anyone who did...but that stops with me and my daughter will know how wonderful bf is and that it is so much more then providing nutrition for your baby. Good job mommies who bf you are influencing the future.

[PatioGardener]

Janice, I'm with you - I feel his answer could have been much better! The question was leading, so I would have 'answered' it like this:

Barbara:

Can I ask you one quick question, the whole debate about breastfeeding and bottlefeeding, if a woman does not breastfeed and she’s using the bottle, how bad is that,  or does it make that much of a difference?

PG:

Barbara, that is an excellent question, and I'm sure we don't have time to answer it fully, so let me just say this. Breastfeeding can be tough going at first and women need to be fully supported by friends, family and especially the medical system. Sadly we let many mother's and babies down when it comes to breastfeeding.

Looking at the camera: If you or someone you know is currently having difficulty breastfeeding, please visit my website to find help in your area. 

Thanks again, Barbara, for bringing up this important topic.

I'm big on getting a message across even if it is not the answer to the question.