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How Can We Trust in Vaccines? - Page 2

post #21 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom View Post

.... having researched from sources I do trust, the risk vs benefit thing comes out in favor of vaccines for me and my children.  I understand why and how other families come to other conclusions, but it does get a little irksome being pigeonholed as an dummy or a blind follower.  eyesroll.gif



The fact that you did research and made an educated decision means you are NOT a blind follower.  The fact that vaccines make sense for certain families is not what makes people "blind followers".

post #22 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by no5no5 View Post

  I have not seen evidence that agencies have been dishonest, but of course individual people can be dishonest. 

 



 



Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom View Post

 

 

I personally do not feel I have been lied to about vaccinations. .

 


I do not feel I have been lied to about vaccines - and yet I still do not trust in vaccines.

 

There can be numerous reasons for lack of trust - dishonesty or lying is only one of them.

 

In my case I distrust them because the medical profession has not been able to answer questions they should be able to answer, and because I know they make decisions with cost/public health in mind.  The "public health" part one can see (even if it is not overly relevant to me as a parent) the cost factor is unacceptable.

 

post #23 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

In my case I distrust them because the medical profession has not been able to answer questions they should be able to answer, and because I know they make decisions with cost/public health in mind.  The "public health" part one can see (even if it is not overly relevant to me as a parent) the cost factor is unacceptable.

 


I guess I don't see it as a primary care provider's job to be able to answer detailed questions about the risk of complications from diseases, especially those that are now being prevented with vaccinations.  I wouldn't expect any doctor to be able to quote exact statistical risks for or against any medication he or she was prescribing, unless that doctor was a super-sub-specialist who only dealt with a handful of meds.  I'd just look that information up if I felt I needed to have it.

 

As for a cost/benefit analysis, I know that it seems offensive and callous to put a price on a person's life, but it happens all the time.  We all make these decisions ourselves on a daily basis.  For example, I don't buy a new car, because even though I know that they are safer, I don't have the money.  Sometimes I buy conventional foods because their organic counterparts are just too expensive.  Et cetera.

 

So, yeah, I can understand the FDA (or its Canadian counterpart) deciding that, even though they know that Mercury can be dangerous, they will allow a small amount of it in some vaccines, because the cost of preservative-free vaccines is higher.  That makes sense to me.  Other than that issue, I think the real analysis that is being performed is a question of whether we are safer, individually and as a community, with vaccinations or without.

post #24 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by no5no5 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

 

 


I guess I don't see it as a primary care provider's job to be able to answer detailed questions about the risk of complications from diseases, especially those that are now being prevented with vaccinations.  I wouldn't expect any doctor to be able to quote exact statistical risks for or against any medication he or she was prescribing, unless that doctor was a super-sub-specialist who only dealt with a handful of meds.  I'd just look that information up if I felt I needed to have it.

 

The thing is - I was not asking complicated questions.  I was asking something I needed to know in order to go through with vaccinating: risk of serious reaction from vaccination versus serious complication from the disease.  I do expect doctors to be able to answer that question or point me in the right direction.  I do not think it is too much to ask.

 

That being said, I doubt doctors feel the need to do this, unless they have an interest in vaccine.  Most people do vaccinate - so obviously doctors do not have to be highly informed on the topic to achieve high vaccine compliance rates.

 

There are some people who are able to do the research on vaxes themselves - but honestly I found real, unbiased info very difficult to come by.  I do look to doctors for information and they were not able to supply.  

 

 

 

As for a cost/benefit analysis, I know that it seems offensive and callous to put a price on a person's life, but it happens all the time.  We all make these decisions ourselves on a daily basis.  For example, I don't buy a new car, because even though I know that they are safer, I don't have the money.  Sometimes I buy conventional foods because their organic counterparts are just too expensive.  Et cetera.

 

 

I do hear what you are saying.  I am more comfortable making safety decisions for myself though, than having them foisted on me.   I might choose to skip the organics, but I am not Ok with the government deciding to choose the DTP over the DTaP for me.  

post #25 of 64

Quote:

The thing is - I was not asking complicated questions.  I was asking something I needed to know in order to go through with vaccinating: risk of serious reaction from vaccination versus serious complication from the disease.  I do expect doctors to be able to answer that question or point me in the right direction.  I do not think it is too much to ask.

It is a rather complicated question though, because the medical community has the benefit of decades upon decades with the diseases to be able to ballpark the rate of complications. However, when it comes to the vaccines, serious reactions are rare enough that it would be very difficult to even come up with a figure. I do believe that more should be done with tracking vaccine reactions, but its not something the neighborhood pediatrician has control over; all they can do is share what is known from clinical trials.

post #26 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jugs View Post

Quote:

The thing is - I was not asking complicated questions.  I was asking something I needed to know in order to go through with vaccinating: risk of serious reaction from vaccination versus serious complication from the disease.  I do expect doctors to be able to answer that question or point me in the right direction.  I do not think it is too much to ask.

It is a rather complicated question though, because the medical community has the benefit of decades upon decades with the diseases to be able to ballpark the rate of complications. However, when it comes to the vaccines, serious reactions are rare enough that it would be very difficult to even come up with a figure. I do believe that more should be done with tracking vaccine reactions, but its not something the neighborhood pediatrician has control over; all they can do is share what is known from clinical trials.

None-the-less, it is one I need answered if I am to inject a healthy infant with a substance.

 

Maybe I should not say I do not trust doctors; perhaps it would be more fair to say that their ignorance on the subject has done nothing to convince me I should vaccinate..  
 

post #27 of 64

Fair enough :) It really comes down to our own perceptions of risk.

post #28 of 64

I have to say that I'm loving this thread.  Such a simple question and such complicated answers.  I was thinking more about the risk and what No5No5 said about buying a car that isn't as safe because of money as well as other things that you can't afford to make safer.  Also, i've read that it's the more affluent folks who are opting out  of vaccines the most.  I wonder if it's because people with money aren't used to having to make these decisions about safety.  For them, they live in safe neighborhoods and drive safe cars, eat safe food, etc.  The risk of vaccine reactions is probably scarier to these folks who don't really deal with risks on a daily basis.  I admit that even as a middle class person, I drive a safe vehicle, live in a safe place and all of my water and food is safe.  I don't really think of my kids as being in any risky situations.  Maybe if there were other risks I was aware of around my kids, I'd be less concerned about vaccines and more concerned with those other things.  I don't know. 

 

I agree with Kathy Muggle that I want to be able to make those choices about what I am willing to risk.  However, that's not really fair either.  A rich person gets a safe vaccine and a poor person gets the toxic one?  Who wouldn't choose the safer one?  They should all be as safe as possible though.

post #29 of 64

You can`t trust vaccines and you shouldn`t...VACCINATION IS BUSINESS BASED ON FEAR and someone makes huge money out of people`s unfortune...it is not only vaccines..it is everything...they want to make us and our kids ill so the pharmaceutical companies will make amazing amount of money...hard to believe but it is the fact and one should really think if you want to trust these so-called set up organizations...they are set up for someone else not to help people...unfortunately...vaccines ingredients should be enough ..i think it is absolutely immoral to use people (elderly or newborns) as quinea pigs..make them ill on purpose so they would make money??

MERCURY, FORMALDEHYD, SORBITOL, GELATINE, MONKEY KIDNEYS, ABBORTED FETAL TISSUE, CHICK EMBRYO, THIMEROSAL just to name a few so one would see that nothing good can come out of this...however, some people even after knowing what it contains would still vaccinate...that is what i will never understand...

 

http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html

http://vran.org/

http://www.vaccinetruth.org/

 

 

post #30 of 64

yes and forgot to mention..that for every and each person ( child, adult..you name it) one pediatrician will get some points and money for doing so...these so called doctors should never be allowed to work with people...especially babies...

post #31 of 64


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom View Post

I have to say that I'm loving this thread.  Such a simple question and such complicated answers.  I was thinking more about the risk and what No5No5 said about buying a car that isn't as safe because of money as well as other things that you can't afford to make safer.  Also, i've read that it's the more affluent folks who are opting out  of vaccines the most.  I wonder if it's because people with money aren't used to having to make these decisions about safety.  For them, they live in safe neighborhoods and drive safe cars, eat safe food, etc.  The risk of vaccine reactions is probably scarier to these folks who don't really deal with risks on a daily basis.  I admit that even as a middle class person, I drive a safe vehicle, live in a safe place and all of my water and food is safe.  I don't really think of my kids as being in any risky situations.  Maybe if there were other risks I was aware of around my kids, I'd be less concerned about vaccines and more concerned with those other things.  I don't know. 


Just to be clear, in my personal risk-benefit analysis, vaccines come out the clear winners.  I don't know much about the lives of affluent people, LOL, but I think it's pretty short-sighted to not bother considering the risks and benefits at all (whatever side you come out on in the end). 

post #32 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucia Z 84 View Post

yes and forgot to mention..that for every and each person ( child, adult..you name it) one pediatrician will get some points and money for doing so...these so called doctors should never be allowed to work with people...especially babies...


From what I've heard, I believe many peds in the states lose money on vaccines. 

 

Here (major city in Canada) pediatricians don't even do vaccines.  You still see them at the same spacing for well baby visits, but vaxes are given by community health nurses in separate clinics.  

post #33 of 64

If you don`t mind me jumping into your conversation..the thing is I had done quite a lot of research past 2 years or maybe more...and also, I am a mother to 8 months old baby girl...I am not vaccinating my daughter simply because vaccination is a lie. From what I`ve found out there is abolutely no way I would let a doctor or nurse inject my daughter with that crap or even come any close..

There is so much going on in this area that I only would advise (I am not trying to be seen as I know and others don`t so don`t take it in a bad way please)

that one should never believe what doctors say or advise on when it comes to vaccines.. serious reactions are not that rare...these cases are just not reported...there is thousands and thousands of babies, children, older kids especially but adults and eldery people that might not be all necessarily brain damaged but have others problems...

From my own experience myself and my sister had some health issues due to being vaccinated which weren`t that serious comparing other children`s misfortune...I consider myself lucky..

 

post #34 of 64

I hear so much of myself in the initial thread post and in many of the responses. I think the answer, for me, to the initial question is "you can't". But the journey that I went through to get to that answer still breaks my heart. I mourn my innocence in believing that large governmental agencies and the medical system had the best interests of patients as the absolute TOP priority. Sometimes I think I sound like a conspiracy theorist, but now I know that patients/people are not at the top of that foodchain. There are many good people who work within the system, but the system is really broken.

post #35 of 64

So called agencies that are meant to be helping people the most are the worst in fact as they do not really care about us....who they care about is themselves and how to full their own pockets in no time...and when I learnt this I was really I mean really angry to put it in a polite way..and in no time I discovered that in this world you only should really trust yourself and the ones you love and who love you..sod the health, food, whatever agencies..they do nothing apart from taking money from us..what do they think they are ?telling us parents for expample how big my baby should be or how much she should weight or eat...?? it doesn`t work like that..every child is an individual and by doing so they only put stupid ideas into kids heads that they are obese or too skiny or ugly or whatever and anorexia is born...another way of making money of course..

I am in control of my own life and I am the one who has to make my own life better and happier...not THE AGENCIES..

post #36 of 64


well said. I agree
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by annjo View Post

I hear so much of myself in the initial thread post and in many of the responses. I think the answer, for me, to the initial question is "you can't". But the journey that I went through to get to that answer still breaks my heart. I mourn my innocence in believing that large governmental agencies and the medical system had the best interests of patients as the absolute TOP priority. Sometimes I think I sound like a conspiracy theorist, but now I know that patients/people are not at the top of that foodchain. There are many good people who work within the system, but the system is really broken.

post #37 of 64

Unfortunately, I would have to say that the powers that be, which includes the medical system, have conditioned us to fear disease and death and wield power over us though this fear. It's heartening to see people waking up and questioning this whole dysfunctional paradigm because it's really overdue. We have also been conditioned to give our power away to an authority, no matter who or what it is. So it's good to see more and more people taking back their power and becoming more awake and informed. Look at what's happening in Egypt as an example. Perhaps the original vaccination programs began with good intentions, but over time it has morphed into a monster that's getting out of control. Our children are the most vaccinated people in the history of the world and if you look at the bigger picture, it's all been a huge chemical experiment. Most diseases already declined in a big way before vaccines were introduced and are still continuing to do so. What about how vaccines are actually causing outbreaks of the same disease they were designed to prevent? This is such a complex polarized issue, so much more than black or white.  

post #38 of 64
Another thing happening these days in medicine is that there is much more attention paid to INDIVIDUAL conflicts of interest. There have certainly been some egregious abuses by individuals. Now, everyone must disclose potential individual conflicts of interst. It is apparently assumed that disclosure of a conflict makes it "okay" (hmmm). This focus though ignores the elephant in the room--the outrageous INSTITUTIONAL conflicts of interest that are probably only getting worse. What do you think happens to the independence and objectivity of medical schools and hospitals when pharmaceutical companies pay for a wing to a hospital, fund a very large portion of medical research, contribute large sums of money to politicians? Even determining WHAT QUESTIONS ARE ASKED is very political. Our science is becoming less and less independent. Note what happens when anyone asks too many questions about the status quo. Andrew Wakefield's paper that was retracted from the Lancet was small potatoes. It merely notes a possible association between bowel inflammation and recent MMR vaccination. In the paper, there was no far reaching statement that "Vaccines cause autism". It ends with the standard statement, "Further research in this area is necessary" (I'm paraphrasing). The science itself was not all that remarkable, but THE QUESTION was EXPLOSIVE. The powers that be went into full court press mode to take Dr. Wakefield down. Thankfully he's been vocal about it.
post #39 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovemy3girls View Post

Unfortunately, I would have to say that the powers that be, which includes the medical system, have conditioned us to fear disease and death and wield power over us though this fear. It's heartening to see people waking up and questioning this whole dysfunctional paradigm because it's really overdue. We have also been conditioned to give our power away to an authority, no matter who or what it is. So it's good to see more and more people taking back their power and becoming more awake and informed. Look at what's happening in Egypt as an example. Perhaps the original vaccination programs began with good intentions, but over time it has morphed into a monster that's getting out of control. Our children are the most vaccinated people in the history of the world and if you look at the bigger picture, it's all been a huge chemical experiment. Most diseases already declined in a big way before vaccines were introduced and are still continuing to do so. What about how vaccines are actually causing outbreaks of the same disease they were designed to prevent? This is such a complex polarized issue, so much more than black or white.  


The citing of what's happening in Egypt as a comparison to the development of Western anti-vaccination movements is an interesting one to me, considering what else is going on in Egypt: namely, as of only about twenty years ago, the implementation of a massive federal vaccination program which now reaches nearly 100% of the children in the nation, which did not coincide with any equivalent overall gains in water or food sanitation, which indeed in some areas has been accompanied by a marked deterioration in these systems, and which has coincided with childhood mortality being cut by more than half over the same period, as well as the nation joining the ranks of the polio-free as of only about five years ago.

post #40 of 64

The basic gist of my comment about Egypt was to show an example of how large groups of people are taking their power back from oppressive leaders in authority. Each country has its own issues. I'm not sure I would confine the anti-vaccine movement only to Western countries, but in this country it is gaining ground because of the sheer number of mandated or recommended vaccines continually piled on to the already crowded schedule. It is most apparent in the USA for this very reason: we are the most highly vaccinated people on the planet. That should be obvious to anyone comparing our immunization schedule to that of other countries. As a country we have an unprecedented growing number of autoimmune and neurological diseases.

 

When vaccines for different diseases were introduced, the medical authorities changed the definition of each disease, thereby changing the appearance of the disease incidence rate to make it appear that the vaccines were more effective than they really are. This is a convenient way for the vaccine manufacturers to skew vaccine efficacy in their favor. Take the "eradication" of polio, as you mentioned,  for instance: before the vaccine, aseptic meningitis and coxsackie virus were counted as polio. Tests and lab confirmation to determine residual paralysis weren't required. After the vaccine came out, these cases were counted as separate diseases. Other parameters were changed too: before the vaccine, a person only had to exhibit paralytic symptoms for 24 hours; after the vaccine came out, the new definition of a polio epidemic required more cases to be reported and patients had to show paralytic symptoms for at least 60 days. Residual paralysis had to be confirmed twice. There is a testimony on congressional record by Dr. Bernard Greenberg, who was chairman of the Committee on Evaluation and Standards of the American Public Health Association in the 1950s regarding this tactic employed by the vaccine manufacturers.

 

As far as polio immunization in Egypt or anywhere else goes, one should keep this in mind. Most cases of polio are asymptomatic, undetectable infections which go unreported. A small percentage of those infected will develop paralysis, and even then 75% of those people will fully recover. Perhaps for some people immunity can be attributed to the vaccine, but the vaccine does not play as big a role as the medical authorities would have people believe. 

 

Anyway, I am hopeful that people all over the world will make great strides in freedom in general, whether it be political, health, economic, personal, or whatever!

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