Originally Posted by Lovemy3girls 
There is a testimony on congressional record by Dr. Bernard Greenberg, who was chairman of the Committee on Evaluation and Standards of the American Public Health Association in the 1950s regarding this tactic employed by the vaccine manufacturers.
I'm aware of the gist. I simply don't see much value in suggesting a correlation between the anti-vax movement and an uprising against a violently oppressive police state, and find it to cross from being a valueless comparison to a somewhat comedic one when one takes "what's happening in Egypt" to reference anything that is even remotely on the same subject matter.
Unfortunately, I would have to say that the powers that be, which includes the medical system, have conditioned us to fear disease and death and wield power over us though this fear. It's heartening to see people waking up and questioning this whole dysfunctional paradigm because it's really overdue. We have also been conditioned to give our power away to an authority, no matter who or what it is. So it's good to see more and more people taking back their power and becoming more awake and informed. Look at what's happening in Egypt as an example. Perhaps the original vaccination programs began with good intentions, but over time it has morphed into a monster that's getting out of control. Our children are the most vaccinated people in the history of the world and if you look at the bigger picture, it's all been a huge chemical experiment. Most diseases already declined in a big way before vaccines were introduced and are still continuing to do so. What about how vaccines are actually causing outbreaks of the same disease they were designed to prevent? This is such a complex polarized issue, so much more than black or white.
The citing of what's happening in Egypt as a comparison to the development of Western anti-vaccination movements is an interesting one to me, considering what else is going on in Egypt: namely, as of only about twenty years ago, the implementation of a massive federal vaccination program which now reaches nearly 100% of the children in the nation, which did not coincide with any equivalent overall gains in water or food sanitation, which indeed in some areas has been accompanied by a marked deterioration in these systems, and which has coincided with childhood mortality being cut by more than half over the same period, as well as the nation joining the ranks of the polio-free as of only about five years ago.
Yeah, I think the "anti-vaccine" fight is a very privileged fight. It's also a very privileged thing to say that No One Should get vaccines when one of the reasons not everyone here needs them is that we live in a 1st world country. The third world does need vaccines to stop the spread of vpd. You don't have to believe that of course, but I really think vaccines can make a difference in a country where the water quality is terrible, the food quality is shaky at best, and health care is not up to par.
Unfortunately, I would have to say that the powers that be, which includes the medical system, have conditioned us to fear disease and death and wield power over us though this fear. It's heartening to see people waking up and questioning this whole dysfunctional paradigm because it's really overdue. We have also been conditioned to give our power away to an authority, no matter who or what it is. So it's good to see more and more people taking back their power and becoming more awake and informed. Look at what's happening in Egypt as an example. Perhaps the original vaccination programs began with good intentions, but over time it has morphed into a monster that's getting out of control. Our children are the most vaccinated people in the history of the world and if you look at the bigger picture, it's all been a huge chemical experiment. Most diseases already declined in a big way before vaccines were introduced and are still continuing to do so. What about how vaccines are actually causing outbreaks of the same disease they were designed to prevent? This is such a complex polarized issue, so much more than black or white.
The citing of what's happening in Egypt as a comparison to the development of Western anti-vaccination movements is an interesting one to me, considering what else is going on in Egypt: namely, as of only about twenty years ago, the implementation of a massive federal vaccination program which now reaches nearly 100% of the children in the nation, which did not coincide with any equivalent overall gains in water or food sanitation, which indeed in some areas has been accompanied by a marked deterioration in these systems, and which has coincided with childhood mortality being cut by more than half over the same period, as well as the nation joining the ranks of the polio-free as of only about five years ago.
Yeah, I think the "anti-vaccine" fight is a very privileged fight. It's also a very privileged thing to say that No One Should get vaccines when one of the reasons not everyone here needs them is that we live in a 1st world country. The third world does need vaccines to stop the spread of vpd. You don't have to believe that of course, but I really think vaccines can make a difference in a country where the water quality is terrible, the food quality is shaky at best, and health care is not up to par.
yeah. my dh (from Peru) has cousins who have life long issues because of VPD (polio. meningitis and measles). he lost 5 siblings because of VPD. when i was researching vaccines, he thought i was CRAZY to even entertain the idea of not vaccinating. and where he is from in Peru - you can't drink the water, you can't even flush toilet paper in the toilet. Vaccine successes in our country is what enables us to have this discussion. It is one thing to not use Vaxes knowing we have access to anti-biotics and hospitals and good developed nation medicine (though i am absolutely not saying the US has the number 1 health care or health care system). where dh is from, you can't go to hospitals, you don't have access to modern medicines unless you have lots of money, and even then - the care you receive is nowhere near what we have here.
Unfortunately, I would have to say that the powers that be, which includes the medical system, have conditioned us to fear disease and death and wield power over us though this fear. It's heartening to see people waking up and questioning this whole dysfunctional paradigm because it's really overdue. We have also been conditioned to give our power away to an authority, no matter who or what it is. So it's good to see more and more people taking back their power and becoming more awake and informed. Look at what's happening in Egypt as an example. Perhaps the original vaccination programs began with good intentions, but over time it has morphed into a monster that's getting out of control. Our children are the most vaccinated people in the history of the world and if you look at the bigger picture, it's all been a huge chemical experiment. Most diseases already declined in a big way before vaccines were introduced and are still continuing to do so. What about how vaccines are actually causing outbreaks of the same disease they were designed to prevent? This is such a complex polarized issue, so much more than black or white.
The citing of what's happening in Egypt as a comparison to the development of Western anti-vaccination movements is an interesting one to me, considering what else is going on in Egypt: namely, as of only about twenty years ago, the implementation of a massive federal vaccination program which now reaches nearly 100% of the children in the nation, which did not coincide with any equivalent overall gains in water or food sanitation, which indeed in some areas has been accompanied by a marked deterioration in these systems, and which has coincided with childhood mortality being cut by more than half over the same period, as well as the nation joining the ranks of the polio-free as of only about five years ago.
Yeah, I think the "anti-vaccine" fight is a very privileged fight. It's also a very privileged thing to say that No One Should get vaccines when one of the reasons not everyone here needs them is that we live in a 1st world country. The third world does need vaccines to stop the spread of vpd. You don't have to believe that of course, but I really think vaccines can make a difference in a country where the water quality is terrible, the food quality is shaky at best, and health care is not up to par.
yeah. my dh (from Peru) has cousins who have life long issues because of VPD (polio. meningitis and measles). he lost 5 siblings because of VPD. when i was researching vaccines, he thought i was CRAZY to even entertain the idea of not vaccinating. and where he is from in Peru - you can't drink the water, you can't even flush toilet paper in the toilet. Vaccine successes in our country is what enables us to have this discussion. It is one thing to not use Vaxes knowing we have access to anti-biotics and hospitals and good developed nation medicine (though i am absolutely not saying the US has the number 1 health care or health care system). where dh is from, you can't go to hospitals, you don't have access to modern medicines unless you have lots of money, and even then - the care you receive is nowhere near what we have here.
realize, from your description, I have to disagree that vaccine success is what enables us to have this conversation. It sounds like sanitation is our savior here. It really is a matter of privilege, I agree. There are lots of vaccines that even people who do vaccinate don't get because of our privilege. Tuberculosis, small pox, yellow fever, malaria, etc. those vaccines are saving people somewhere, but we don't get those vaccines here. Why not? They're just "a plane ride away." Which is something I hear as a reason for vaccinating against things we just don't see here anymore, like polio. If I lived in Peru, I'd probably think it was crazy not to vaccinate.
realize, from your description, I have to disagree that vaccine success is what enables us to have this conversation. It sounds like sanitation is our savior here. It really is a matter of privilege, I agree. There are lots of vaccines that even people who do vaccinate don't get because of our privilege. Tuberculosis, small pox, yellow fever, malaria, etc. those vaccines are saving people somewhere, but we don't get those vaccines here. Why not? They're just "a plane ride away." Which is something I hear as a reason for vaccinating against things we just don't see here anymore, like polio. If I lived in Peru, I'd probably think it was crazy not to vaccinate.
I think the reality is that its a combination of sanitation, and vaccines. TB, small pox, yellow fever, and malaria (which does not have a vaccine, it requires taking medication every day), are just a plane ride away, and the reason people are advised to get them before traveling is at least partially so they don't bring them back. I have traveled to a 3rd world country, and b/c I was nursing was not able to take malaria meds, or get the vaccines (my ds did not go with me, he stayed home), but it was a real concern.
Some vpd's however are not preventable merely through sanitation. In those cases, vaccines have made a big difference, and are in some cases necessary I believe to maintain the "herd immunity" so that they don't make a re-appearance.
Some vpd's however are not preventable merely through sanitation. In those cases, vaccines have made a big difference, and are in some cases necessary I believe to maintain the "herd immunity" so that they don't make a re-appearance.
Indeed, sanitary measures worsened polio in the U.S., and the measles and (I assume bacterial) meningitis that PP mentioned as having consequences for her DH are spread by the respiratory route.
Smallpox has been completely eradicated. It does not exist in the wild anywhere in the world, so it is not just a plane ride away, and the vaccine for it is not given routinely anywhere today. For a long time, the only people who were vaccinated for smallpox were those who worked with virus kept alive in labs. After 9-11 they also started vaccinating first responder teams and such to be ready in case smallpox was reintroduced through biological warfare, and increased vaccine stores to make sure that they could vaccinate quickly if that were to happen.
There is not a malaria vaccine used anywhere in the world as scientists have yet to develop an effective one, though they are working on one now that looks promising. Malaria is controlled by controlling mosquito populations, mosquito netting and repellent to prevent bites, and anti-malarial medication, but is still indeed a major problem in some areas.
There is a vaccine for yellow fever, but it is not considered to be needed here unless you are travelling to a country which may still have it (I did get it before visiting Peru in the 90s). Neither yellow fever or malaria is spread from person to person, they require mosquitoes to pass them around, and not every species of mosquito can carry them. In the US, populations of mosquitoes that can only exist in the southeast states, and the populations are small. To bring yellow fever back, a person would have to come back infected and then infect a mosquito capable of transmitting it, then that mosquito or an infected child of that mosquito would have to infect someone else.
It's just not nearly as easy to spread as diseases such as polio or measles or chicken pox which pass fairly easily directly from person to person without the need of an insect vector. A yellow fever outbreak could happen theoretically, but since most travelers to at risk areas are vaccinated it is not likely, it would spread fairly slowly as it would take a while to infect enough mosquitoes, it would be limited to the areas with the right kind of mosquitoes, and it could be controlled through vaccinating at risk populations and drastically increasing spraying for mosquitoes. It is just not nearly enough of a risk to make the risks of the vaccine worthwhile. And while I suffered no ill effects, the yellow fever vaccine does have a much higher incidence of serious side effects than any vaccines on the routine schedule, and I only got it for Peru because I was travelling to the city of Iquitos which is in the eastern jungle so a higher risk area, the CDC does not even recommend it for travelers who are only going to Machu Pichu or areas west of the Andes.
While there are some problems with antibiotic resistant strains of TB, most TB can be cured. TB is also not as easily transmitted, usually only those who have frequent long term exposure to the infected person will get it, unlike measles and chicken pox which can be passed easily by being in the same classroom briefly or by sitting next to someone with it briefly on a bus and such or even Polio which isn't (I think) spread by air, but can still be spread fairly easily by two kids sharing a straw or a kid failing to wash their hands after using the restroom then digging through then touching other plates and forks and such on a buffet line as they are getting their own. There is a TB vaccine but it is not very effective (it may have been at one time when it was developed, but the bacteria lines it is made from have evolved over the decades) and does have some risk of actually giving TB to those with compromised immune systems. With TB mostly controlled here and not spread very quickly and the risks of the vaccine, mass vaccination for TB is not considered worthwhile here. Labs are currently trying to make a better TB vaccine though as TB is still a major killer in many parts of the world.
All great and valid points. In no way did I mean to imply that no one should ever get vaccines. Sure they can help a lot of people, they can also hinder and suppress immunity too and create additional health issues. The anti-vaccination movement is just an aspect of the larger health freedom movement. It includes resistance to GM foods and agribusiness that denatures our food, FDA corruption, corporate control of the food supply, attacking nutritional supplements, suppressing or downplaying information about adverse vaccine reactions, etc. (Feel free to add anything else I left out.)
My point is this: Looking at the bigger picture, which is what the last sentence of my last post was about, there are many issues revolving around freedom in general for the global community. What about freedom of informed consent and freedom of choice with vaccines? This information is often suppressed and the choice to selectively delay or not vaccinate has come under increased attack. Why do we as Americans vaccinate the most in the world yet rate 42nd place in infant mortality? Why is this about privilege and not just basic human rights? Is demanding freedom or questioning the status quo of any issue affecting the population in any area of the world a privilege or is it a basic human right?
"The powers that be" manipulate populations both overtly and covertly. Egypt is like the fuse that has been lit, so to speak, that will continue to spread to other countries where the populace has been kept down, and I think the U.S. is no exception. We have many issues besides health freedom that we are dealing with here. (The economy, the Homeland Security Act which has stripped away more of our civil rights, the exaggerated corporate power of the pharmaceutical companies and overbloated medical system to name a few...feel free to add anything else I left out.)
All of you have very valid viewpoints on the vaccine issue. And yes, it is complex. Very. I am looking at it as one of the threads that tie into a much bigger picture.
True, but yellow fever and malaria are transmitted by mosquitoes. A very resilient mosquito would have to board a plane in Lima. 
All kidding aside, though, we saw how quickly West Nile spread...
This thread got too long--and my precious time too short--for me to read every post. I will say, however, that I can see the OPs point.
Let's look at some slightly less controversial examples than flouridated water. Over the past century, physicians and public health authorities in the U.S. have told us to eat less eggs, eat more eggs, eat margarine, stop eating margarine, get a swine flu shot in 1976 (with disastrous results), hose our children down with DDT, make sure our babies sleep on their stomachs, make sure our babies sleep on their backs, take lots of Vitamin D, stop taking so much Vitamin D, formula feed our babies, breastfeed our babies.... It's enough to make the public's heads spin.
Our knowledge, and the research that (ideally!) feeds it, grows and changes. I get that. But the lesson remains clear: Public health authorities can be, have been, and will again be wrong. So it's more than justified to cock an eyebrow every time a new vaccine is introduced to the Almighty Schedule.
About pertussis, has anyone else heard or read about this, that it mutated into parapertussis a few decades ago and the current vaccine doesn't work because it contains Bordetella pertussis? Whenever I see or hear reports from the media about outbreaks, a part of me can't help but wonder if it's just a spin, hyping it up and exaggerating the prevalence of the disease to create fearmongering so that the public demand for the vaccine will increase? How do we know we're being told the truth? Am I crazy to question this reality? I mean, look at what health authorities did with Swine Flu (both times) - you know, the epidemic that wasn't? And the Bird Flu? What happened to those threats? They disappeared!
Does anyone know much about parapertussis? I read that it's milder than B. pertussis. Can anyone enlighten on this?
http://www.cidd.psu.edu/research/synopses/acellular-vaccine-enhancement-b.-parapertussis
pertussis is also mutating
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2834637/?tool=pubmed
About pertussis, has anyone else heard or read about this, that it mutated into parapertussis a few decades ago and the current vaccine doesn't work because it contains Bordetella pertussis? Whenever I see or hear reports from the media about outbreaks, a part of me can't help but wonder if it's just a spin, hyping it up and exaggerating the prevalence of the disease to create fearmongering so that the public demand for the vaccine will increase? How do we know we're being told the truth? Am I crazy to question this reality? I mean, look at what health authorities did with Swine Flu (both times) - you know, the epidemic that wasn't? And the Bird Flu? What happened to those threats? They disappeared!
Does anyone know much about parapertussis? I read that it's milder than B. pertussis. Can anyone enlighten on this?
In the context of Peru? Here are the WHO surveillance data since 1980 versus DTP3 coverage:
| Year |
Uptake (%) |
Cases |
|---|---|---|
| 1980 | 16 | 12134 |
| 1981 | 20 | 11973 |
| 1982 | 23 | 8238 |
| 1983 | 23 | 7164 |
| 1984 | 28 | 7145 |
| 1985 | 48 | 7226 |
| 1986 | 50 | 2796 |
| 1987 | 43 | 2344 |
| 1988 | 60 | 1553 |
| 1989 | 58 | 1714 |
| 1990 | 72 | 1134 |
| 1991 | 71 | 470 |
| 1992 | 83 | 369 |
| 1993 | 87 | 1013 |
| 1994 | 87 | 3123 |
| 1995 | 90 | 872 |
| 1996 | 94 | 355 |
| 1997 | 90 | 989 |
| 1998 | 94 | 2490 |
| 1999 | 99 | 2388 |
| 2000 | 98 | 68 |
| 2001 | 90 | 24 |
| 2002 | 95 | 54 |
| 2003 | 94 | 68 |
| 2004 | 91 | 201 |
| 2005 | 89 | 127 |
| 2006 | 94 | 84 |
| 2007 | 97 | 47 |
| 2008 | 99 | 59 |
| 2009 | 93 | 254 |
I seems like we're getting way off topic for the discussion and veering off in several different directions. Let's please keep this thread focused on-topic regarding how/why/if agencies involved in vaccine safety, licensure and recommendations can be trusted to advocate for our best interests.
If you wish to further explore the role of vaccines in disease rates in various global regions or the role of pertussis vaccines in disease trends etc., please start new threads so that everyone can navigate the conversations more easily.
No really, honestly. How can we trust that vaccines are safe?
If somebody is dishonest with me, I really cannot trust anything else they say. So, I'm honestly curious as to why so many people trust their lives, and their children's lives, to the recommendations of "XYZ" organization. If the organization has been dishonest in the past, why do we continue to trust them with our future?
Here is one example.....the FDA's and ADA's position on amalgam (mercury) fillings. Here is a link from Mercola's site. If you don't like Mercola, please feel free to find your own source. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/01/28/scientists-urge-fda-to-stop-amalgam-use-in-children-pregnant-women-and-hypersensitive.aspx
Or, let's be truthful here.....fluoridated water is crap! Why is our water fluoridated, by recommendation of the FDA, CDC, ADA, etc. If you do any research on fluoride, you will see what I mean. Here is one site I pulled up http://www.fluoridealert.org/
So please, can we have an open discussion about this? Why do the organizations set up to protect us continue to let us down? And if you agree they are not always right, well why do you trust them on the subject of vaccines? I am not trying to be a jerk here; I really do want to know. I'm just a concerned mom! I honestly believe there is evidence of harm, and whether I'm right or wrong, my intentions are true.
Try to step outside your comfort zone and look at these issues.
Ah! I didn't make the connection that she was the same poster with the DH from Peru. I get so dependent on those quote boxes to keep track of things! Apologies.
In the context of Peru? Here are the WHO surveillance data since 1980 versus DTP3 coverage:
No idea. I don't trust any of them. It's all a bunch of relative truth. That goes for the vast majority of "alternative" stuff out there too. JMO.
this. all of it.
I didn't read all of the replies, but all I can say is that I do not have much "faith" in a corporation who is given a "free pass" on accountability with their products.
The fact that the Vaccine Manufacturers cannot be sued in court for a faulty product does NOT increase my "trust" in the product. If I put my child in a faulty crib, I could sue the manufacturer for the child's death or permanent bodily harm. If a vaccine harms my child, I have to try to "prove" the harm in a system that relies on the CDC and HHS to say yes or no to the harm (which is very hard to do since the CDC and HHS PASS the vaccine to begin with!) and more times than not I would not win the case.
No, if a corporation is allowed to NOT be held accountable for their faulty products, that decreases my trust in that product immensely. In this case, since I already do not trust Big Pharma, the FDA and the CDC, it doesn't say much for me ever chancing having my children vaxed.
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