Scabbing at site of vaccine injection

[oceanbaby]

We adopted a 3 month old puppy last week.  At the time we adopted her, she had had a skin biopsy done.  The explanation we were given was that she had developed a large scab, and they decided to biopsy it to make sure she didn't have ringworm or something else.  All tests came back negative. When we took her home 7 days ago, she still had the stitches (procedure was done on 1/14, if I am remembering correctly), and was halfway thorugh a dose of antibiotics, which we are still giving her.  Since all tests came back negative, they figured the scabbing was a reaction to the vaccine, since it was in the exact spot the vaccine was given.

On Wed of last week, I took her to a vet to get her third shot, because of the possibility of a reaction.  The vet examined the area, said it looked fine, and removed the sutures.  She gave her a third vaccine at the top area of her leg, and also gave her a benadryl shot.  Zoey (our puppy) was completely fine after the shot - no swelling, no scratching or biting at the area.

On Friday, I noticed scabbing beginning at the exact area they gave the shot.  I called the vet's office, and she said that it is most definitely a vaccine reaction, but that if it isn't swollen and isn't bothering her, that it would probably just scab over and fall off.

Has anyone else heard of this?  The new scab is pretty big - probably about an inch or inch and half long.  The area where the stiches were taken out is still really scabbed, and I don't see the hair growing back yet (but they said this was normal).

She isn't scratching at it, and is totally happy and playful and not at all bothered by it.  But I am bothered by it.  I am wondering how big it's going to get, if and when it will heal, and what we are supposed to do about further shots. 

I'd love any feedback anyone here has about this.  This is our first dog, so I am completely new at this!

[oceanbaby]

No one has heard of this?  I've been Googling and can't find anything.  I'm getting a bit worried.  She's due for her 4mo rabies shot in about a week, and she's still got these two huge scabs from the last shots.

[lonegirl]

I have seen this a few times.  It was usually a reaction and slowly disappeared.  As for the incision site.  Are they having you clean it?  We generally recommend gently cleaning the area with a bit of peroxide on a gauze square to remove any loose scabs.  It takes a while for the hair to grow back in the shaved area, the incision will be hidden but the incision line itself will not have hair growth.

[Mirzam]

I have never heard of this either, but I am sure it was a vax reaction. What would you do if your child had such a reaction, would you continue to vaccinate them? Or vaccinate them so soon after a reaction? If it were me, I would never give my dog another vaccine, especially Rabies as it is the most reactive of all the vaccinations and your puppy is obviously sensitve. Many states allow medical exemptions for Rabies, but it sounds like you would have to find another vet to get one, as she seemed to blow off your concerns.

As with human vaccination, do your research and don't blindly follow the "advice" your vet if you think it is detrimental to the health of your puppy.

[oaktreemama]

A good vet is a way better resource than Googling-while there are crappy vets, most care about the welfare of your puppy. Their advice is very valid and I would not simply ignore it. I would consider skipping many vaccines depending on your area but I would never skip the initial rabies vaccination. Now that you know there may be vaccine reaction you can be more prepared.

Some states require strict quarantine if your dog should bite someone-up to six months in a cage somewhere-if you do not have proof of the rabies vaccine.  Rabies is a ghastly way to die, is almost always fatal in dogs, and I would never chance it.

Once you get the initial shot and booster you can go to a three year protocol in many states.

You may also want to check out the Rabies Challenge Fund (http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/). This is a group of vets and researchers that are working on long term testing to show that the vaccine (actually they are researching the all the core vaccines) can be given every 5-7 yrs rather than every three years. Currently they are looking at titre levels and hoping to change many antiquated laws regarding the rabies vaccine-they believe that vaccines given at the right time in a young puppy/dog's life may confer life long immunity and herd immunity. They may have some resources for you to help you navigate this new terrain.

Finally, your dog may have reacted to a specific ingredient and using a different manufacturer may help prevent another reaction.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by oaktreemama 

A good vet is a way better resource than Googling-while there are crappy vets, most care about the welfare of your puppy. Their advice is very valid and I would not simply ignore it. I would consider skipping many vaccines depending on your area but I would never skip the initial rabies vaccination. Now that you know there may be vaccine reaction you can be more prepared.

Some states require strict quarantine if your dog should bite someone-up to six months in a cage somewhere-if you do not have proof of the rabies vaccine.  Rabies is a ghastly way to die, is almost always fatal in dogs, and I would never chance it.

Once you get the initial shot and booster you can go to a three year protocol in many states.

You may also want to check out the Rabies Challenge Fund (http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/). This is a group of vets and researchers that are working on long term testing to show that the vaccine (actually they are researching the all the core vaccines) can be given every 5-7 yrs rather than every three years. Currently they are looking at titre levels and hoping to change many antiquated laws regarding the rabies vaccine-they believe that vaccines given at the right time in a young puppy/dog's life may confer life long immunity and herd immunity. They may have some resources for you to help you navigate this new terrain.

Finally, your dog may have reacted to a specific ingredient and using a different manufacturer may help prevent another reaction.

If vets are anything like pediatricians then they are few and far between, most just follow the company line. The information from the Rabies Challenge Fund is worth looking at, but at present Rabies is required by law either every year or every three years depending on the State, so a medical exemption is the only way to get out of giving the shot. Yes, you can give one shot, but doing it so soon after two vaccine reactions seems to be asking for trouble, at least wait until she is six months old to given her body a chance to recover, I would also seek out a new vet during that time, one that treats vaccinosis. The Rabies vaccination is the most reactive of the canine shots and often causes behavior problems in dogs, given that the puppy has already been shown to be sensitive to vaccinations, I would be very cautious. I realize I am very radical, and will not vaccinate my children or dog, ever. But I am very comfortable in my decision and am willing to accept the consequences of that decision. 

Op, I think the reaction sounds like vaccine-site tissue necrosis.

[lonegirl]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

If vets are anything like pediatricians then they are few and far between, most just follow the company line. The information from the Rabies Challenge Fund is worth looking at, but at present Rabies is required by law either every year or every three years depending on the State, so a medical exemption is the only way to get out of giving the shot. Yes, you can give one shot, but doing it so soon after two vaccine reactions seems to be asking for trouble, at least wait until she is six months old to given her body a chance to recover, I would also seek out a new vet during that time, one that treats vaccinosis. The Rabies vaccination is the most reactive of the canine shots and often causes behavior problems in dogs, given that the puppy has already been shown to be sensitive to vaccinations, I would be very cautious. I realize I am very radical, and will not vaccinate my children or dog, ever. But I am very comfortable in my decision and am willing to accept the consequences of that decision. 

In 15 years working as a tech I have worked with at least 25 different Vets (in 6 hospitals)....There isn't one of them that I could say anything other than the pets' interest is priority.  Yes, it is a business and they work for money....but the reason all that I have worked with got into the field is for the welfare of the animals.  The vets I work with keep up on all the new info and best vaccine protocols (we do rabies every 3 y after the initial 2 boosters) We also alternate other vaccs.  My boss (also a friend for about 11y) is the president of the OVMA (Ontario Veterinary Medical Association).  Seriously it would be sad to have the initial thought that vets do not have the pet wellbeing at heart.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by lonegirl 

In 15 years working as a tech I have worked with at least 25 different Vets (in 6 hospitals)....There isn't one of them that I could say anything other than the pets' interest is priority.  Yes, it is a business and they work for money....but the reason all that I have worked with got into the field is for the welfare of the animals.  The vets I work with keep up on all the new info and best vaccine protocols (we do rabies every 3 y after the initial 2 boosters) We also alternate other vaccs.  My boss (also a friend for about 11y) is the president of the OVMA (Ontario Veterinary Medical Association).  Seriously it would be sad to have the initial thought that vets do not have the pet wellbeing at heart.

I am absolutely sure they have the pet's well being at heart, but that doesn't mean to say what they are doing is right. They are products of their education and their ruling association which at times is highly suspect because of the interests of big pharma and the pet food industry. The issue I have is even the "best" vaccine protocols are highly suspect and should be questioned.

[lonegirl]

I think they are improving in the vaccine dept.  I still am of the belief that they are essential.  Have you ever seen a puppy/dog die of parvo? I have, it is a sad and preventable way to die.  Have you seen a kennel cough outbreak? I have.  I have seen what happens to both cats and dogs who are left unvaccinated.  Yes, I feel we over vaccinate but really, I see it from the hospital perspective and I know that in general times are changing and the vets are trying to change too.

[oaktreemama]

 They are products of their education and their ruling association which at times is highly suspect because of the interests of big pharma and the pet food industry.

Everyone has an agenda including non vaxing people.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by oaktreemama 

Everyone has an agenda including non vaxing people.

To save pets from unnecessary harm perhaps?

[oaktreemama]

 

To save pets from unnecessary harm perhaps?

Exactly-vaxing pets saves them from harm.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by oaktreemama 

 

To save pets from unnecessary harm perhaps?

Exactly-vaxing pets saves them from harm.

We will have to agree to disagree on this. I have made my choice not to vaccinate because I understand it to be harmful. If you believe vaccines save pets from harm by all means you should vax. But when a puppy has an obvious reaction to a vaccine, it makes sense to me to be cautious because in this instance the vaccine has caused harm.

[lonegirl]

A minor reaction imo is less of an issue than uncontrollable bloody diarrhea and vomiting in a puppy with parvo...a puppy that without tonnes of iv fluids and medication to ctrl it will die and painful and pitiful death....and even with treatment only has a slim chance of making it. 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by lonegirl 

A minor reaction imo is less of an issue than uncontrollable bloody diarrhea and vomiting in a puppy with parvo...a puppy that without tonnes of iv fluids and medication to ctrl it will die and painful and pitiful death....and even with treatment only has a slim chance of making it. 

But why then do vaccinated puppies still get Parvo and why do they tend to fair worse than unvaccinated puppies who get Parvo? I would rather lose a puppy to Parvo than have a chronically sick dog with behavioral issues for its entire life. But that's me, you are welcome to a different opinion. 

If you want to discuss risk/benefit of vaccines here is something to think about. Jean Dodds of the Rabies Challenge has related immune-mediated hematologic disease and transient bone marrow failure and leukemias-lymphomas in dogs have been caused by the modified parvovirus and other vaccines. Bloat, stained teeth, chronic gastroenteritis and seizures have also been attributed to the vaccine.

Chronic symptoms of the distemper vaccination include: watery fluid dripping from the nose, conjunctivitis, eye discharge, entropion, chronic gastritis, hepatitis, pancreatitis, appetite disorders, recurrent diarrhea, sensitivity to food with resultant diarrhea (aka food allergies), epilepsy, rear leg paralysis, spondylitis, lip fold dermatitis, excessive licking of feet, eruptions between toes, allergies, kennel cough, chronic bronchitis, chronic skin eruptions, especially the lower half of the body, failure to thrive, abnormally thin. 

Then there is the rabies vax, the most reactive of the vaccines which can cause a myriad of behavioral issues:  restless nature, suspicion of others, aggression to animals and people, changes in behavior, aloofness, unaffectionate, desire to roam, or clingy, separation anxiety (velcro dog), restraining can lead to violent behavior and self-injury, self-mutilation, tail chewing, voice changes, hoarseness, excessive barking, chronic poor appetite, very finicky, paralysis of the throat or tongue, sloppy eaters, drooling, dry eye, loss of sight, cataracts, eating wood, stones earth, stools, destructive behavior, shredding bedding, seizures, epilepsy, twitching.

How many posters here have dogs with some of these conditions? How many of these conditions are considered "normal"? How many animals present at your practice everyday with these symptoms? Does the vet ever even consider them vaccine reactions? Why are pets so chronically unhealthy? Why are so many dogs, especially young adult ones given up to shelters because of behavioral issues? Only to be further contaminated by yet more vaccines and chemical wormers and flea/tick topicals.

I just want to get across that the issue is not clear cut, vaccines do cause harm, and I believe way more harm than good.

Many reactions are never acknowledged or are dismissed as "worth it". My decision not to vaccinate my dog comes from a place of wanting the very best for my pet, who relies completely on me for his well being. Before anyone takes offense, I am not in any way implying those that choose to vaccine don't want the best for the animals, we have just reached a different conclusion on the issue.

I have come to realize through experience that unvaxed dogs, like unvaxed children, are way healthier and have less behavioral issues than their vaxed counterparts. They utilize their strong healing support systems (aka immune systems) to restore health to the body. Of course it helps (a lot) to provide a species appropriate diet (raw) and loving care also. Lying on my living room floor right now is an unvaxed, raw fed 7 month Mastiff puppy who has amazing muscle tone, a super disposition and no health issues whatsoever. 

Op, this has gone off on a tangent, I am sorry. 

[lonegirl]

While I find the study very interesting, and the link between the vaccine and the various symptoms facinating what I keep focus on is that 90% of the conditions listed are treatable......death is not.

[lonegirl]

I wanted to add...I will read the study.  I am always interested in new studies and am open to other views

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by lonegirl 

While I find the study very interesting, and the link between the vaccine and the various symptoms facinating what I keep focus on is that 90% of the conditions listed are treatable......death is not.

My point is quality of life. Is it worth it?

[lonegirl]

Dr Dodds is not saying don't vaccinate.  Her limited vaccine schedule is very similar to what our hospital is following. http://www.dogs4dogs.com/puppy-shots.htm 

Rabies vaccine she is saying do what is required by law (which here is if a one year vacc then must be yearly if a labeled 3y vaccs then every 3y).  She is recommending titres....but what this means is that if titres are low then vaccines are required.  We do this if requested.   Some vaccs have a shorter lifspan then others and some we do yearly some every other and rabies is a three year.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by lonegirl 

Dr Dodds is not saying don't vaccinate.  Her limited vaccine schedule is very similar to what our hospital is following. http://www.dogs4dogs.com/puppy-shots.htm 

Rabies vaccine she is saying do what is required by law (which here is if a one year vacc then must be yearly if a labeled 3y vaccs then every 3y).  She is recommending titres....but what this means is that if titres are low then vaccines are required.  We do this if requested.   Some vaccs have a shorter lifspan then others and some we do yearly some every other and rabies is a three year.

Yes I know that, Frankly I think she is a sell-out.