UPDATE, post #69 - should I fight the mandatory volunteer hours? - Page 2

[APToddlerMama]

Originally Posted by elus0814 

It's a Catholic school. The parish partially funds the school but it's not clear to what extent. The tuition is $8000 and the laundry list of fees comes to nearly another $3000. It's way, way more expensive than any Catholic school I've ever heard of. The school I went to as a child had a much lower tuition. It's currently up to $3400 a year plus $250 in fees. They do not require parents to volunteer, although, like any school, it is encouraged. The school is in an area where there are terrible public schools. There are hundreds of families who live on or work on the base and have little choice as to where to live. Roughly half of the students in the county go to a parochial school and this is the only Catholic one. My dad is a teacher at a Catholic school and our conclusion is that the school charges as much as their 'market' allows them to. The parish also has a tithe, the traditional 10%, which we will not be able to pay and therefore will not be able to be parishioners there (you have to apply in person with proof of your income and set up direct deposit to the church with your bank). We donate to whichever church we attend but with four kids we simply can't pay all that tuition plus 10% of our gross (they don't accept just net) income. The whole parish does things with money that I find terrible but they're the only game in town. I guess what I'm saying is: how much of a financial burden does this school and parish really have for the parents to lighten? 

 The whole 10% thing is seriously outrageous!  My understanding was that was a Biblical guideline, not a rule.  If the church is demanding that, I wouldn't want to be part of it.  It sounds like they are greedy and deviating from Catholic teaching.  They are also assuming their members are a bunch of liars whose income must be verified.

About the school... it also sounds like they are taking advantage of their situation with the poor public schools.  Have you ever considered sending your children to a different private school (for instance a Christian or Lutheran one)?  The suggestion probably sounds ridiculous, but I say this only from the standpoint of someone who attended a Catholic elementary school and a Lutheran Middle and High School only because my mom was a former teacher whose main goal was to have us in the best schools period.  You would think it would be confusing, but my siblings and I actually did quite well and never had any issues "standing out" or anything.  Having been brought up with Christian values seemed to be enough.   This might not be a good solution for your family, but thought I'd throw it out there as an alternative to being forced to do 80 hours of busy work a year and pay that high of a tuition. 

[elsie]

If I wanted the kids to goto the school, I would look for or start a babysitting swap. I'd be surprised if there wasn't one aready, plus the young kids get to make new friends as well.

[elus0814]

I haven't checked this thread since yesterday. Time to post, huh?

The church is open to anyone, you certainly don't have to pay to go to mass but if you want to be a parishioner (sort of an official member of that parish) then you have to tithe. There is no way we can pay the tithe plus tuition so we will have the kids attend at the non-parishioner rate. Parishioners only save $400-something off the tuition bill. We will have to pay extra for some programs if we want to participate in them that are offered to parishioner for free. I really feel the tithe and high tuition are because it's the only parish and school within daily driving distance of the town and base.

We need to live on base. We're only going to be there for approximately two years. We've seen too many people buy houses then not be able to sell them to want to buy one. We won't fit in an apartment and rental houses are scarce, very expensive, and often in not so great neighborhoods. Housing is a big issue with those stationed at this base, we've been on a waiting list since last summer for a house.

I spoke with someone at the school again this morning. I didn't get many details last time and was mostly going off their website. Yes, the hours MUST be done at school or on school grounds (like the fun job of picking up garbage in the parking lot). Younger children, older children, babies, family members who have not passed a background check, friends, etc. are not allowed under any circumstances. Period. The parent who I spoke to on the phone said she wasn't aware of a babysitting swap but she would look into it.

Last year the school had 247 students. At 40 hours per student that's 9,880 volunteer hours, assuming everyone did every hour and no one did any more than 40. With a 40 week school year and 7 hour school day that's 1400 hours of school per year. That means they have an average of seven volunteers every hour of every school day, not including days off which pushes that number higher. That's a lot of volunteers! No wonder each bathroom has an adult attendant! I suppose some events draw more volunteers but still.

This whole thing is just rubbing me the wrong way. 

christeen -  I feel the school is very expensive for an elementary school. High schools are significantly more. I've talked to a couple dozen people about it and everyone as agreed that it's a pricy school because there are no other options for Catholic parents who prefer their children no attend a non-Catholic school or the public schools.

[Tigerle]

Originally Posted by elus0814 

The church is open to anyone, you certainly don't have to pay to go to mass but if you want to be a parishioner (sort of an official member of that parish) then you have to tithe. There is no way we can pay the tithe plus tuition so we will have the kids attend at the non-parishioner rate. Parishioners only save $400-something off the tuition bill. We will have to pay extra for some programs if we want to participate in them that are offered to parishioner for free. I really feel the tithe and high tuition are because it's the only parish and school within daily driving distance of the town and base.

Write to the archdiocese was my first reaction, too, as it sounded that you basically have to pay at the door to go to mass...sorry, but this is still a weird setup. I wonder whether there are two lines for communion, one for the "real" parishioners, one for the second rate kind? Do they get the point of communion? The relation to "community"? Ugh.

I'd seriously question whether I wanted to be part of either school or church...but if you have no choice I guess you have to suck it up for two years. The babysitting swap sounds like the best option forthem to be able to waste your time. Or maybe you can seriously impress them with your cooking skills and promise more of that wonderful stuff  uif they'll only let you prepare it at home?

 Sounds like a tough situation!

[ollyoxenfree]

I'm curious about your original question - "Should I fight the mandatory volunteer hours?". I'm not sure how you would fight this policy.  

Since it's a private school, the Board of Governors (or whomever) can set whatever policies it likes, can't they? They don't have a lot of incentive to change it. It provides several benefits to the school: 

- it a useful "weeding out" tool for narrowing the kind of families that apply to the school 

- it provides a source of income

- it ensures they have a large population of labourers to keep the school clean, the students supervised, and frees teachers from non-instructional chores like photocopying. If parent volunteers help with school clean-up, it frees the janitorial staff to do heavier, more complicated maintenance. Bathroom supervision probably means the bathrooms stay cleaner.  These things should reduce operating budget for janitorial services, but likely they are using the budget in other areas that public schools don't maintain (does the private school have "extras" like a school theatre with professional lighting, an indoor pool, tennis courts or - like one private school I know - a target range?). Bathroom supervision also helps address bullying and trouble-making.  Presumably, if the teachers aren't doing non-instructional chores, they have more time with students to help them with the achievements that they brag about in the school literature and website for marketing purposes. 

I understand why this policy is problematic for you, but I'm not sure how you can force a change. I think you may be able to get some help finding babysitting or possibly changing the policy on off-site volunteering. 

BTW, allowing younger children who aren't students on-site opens up potential liability issues for them, so they have little incentive to change this policy either. 

Good luck with it. 

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

I'm curious about your original question - "Should I fight the mandatory volunteer hours?". I'm not sure how you would fight this policy.  

yes, back to your original question and your first post:
 

Originally Posted by elus0814 
 I'm wondering if just paying the 'fine' would be easier and cheaper since a babysitter will likely run $10 an hour but I don't want to be the parent who didn't volunteer.

In social terms, it's far better to be the parent who followed the policy (even if it you choose the pay rather than participate option) rather than the parent who starts off fighting before you even get there.  After you get involved in the school and really see how things work, proposing changes is totally different.

At our school, if a parent who didn't have a child at the schools said they wanted to change things/fight things, it would not be taken at all seriously. At this point, you really don't know what they've tried in the past and has failed, what the budget looks like, etc. You really don't even know the point is of the tasks they have parents do.

Was the phone thing so a school employee could have a lunch break? It's one of the community service options for high schoolers at my kids school -- use their lunch break to answer the phone so the receptionist has a break. It's just to make sure that if someone calls, they get a real person. It is, actually, a job that matters. It isn't one that I would like to do, so I do other things.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by cristeen 

Originally Posted by elus0814 

It's a Catholic school. The parish partially funds the school but it's not clear to what extent. The tuition is $8000 and the laundry list of fees comes to nearly another $3000. It's way, way more expensive than any Catholic school I've ever heard of. The school I went to as a child had a much lower tuition. It's currently up to $3400 a year plus $250 in fees. 

Hate to say it, but $3400 is ridiculously low in this day and age.  And even $8K is pretty low IMO.  Around here, non-parochial private schools are $15K/yr.  The Catholic HS that I went to is closing it's doors at the end of this school year after 130 years because even at $15K+, tuition is not sufficient to cover the expenses of running the school. 

As a comparison, we're paying $4500 for Catholic preschool for dd next year. We are in a low cost-of-living area, and the cost beginning in kindergarten is around $7000.  So I don't see the price of this school in particular (esp with the info that there are only 250 students) are particularly high, to be honest.

What about homeschooling them? That may be an easier option and definitely would be cheaper. You could afford some babysitting hours to get a break if you're not paying the tuition.

[zebra15]

Personally I wouldnt send my kid to this school but thats just me.  The whole required work in addition to tution just rubs me the wrong way.  What happens if someone can't pass the background check?  There are a million and one 'what if's'  Wanting to volunteer is one thing, demanding it is something totally different.  As a parent I do not want all those folks in the school, background cleared or not.

However if you need to do the 'volun-told' thing I bet there is a babysitting swap set up or the like.  Why not continue homeschooling?

[journeymom]

Elus0814,  did we scare you away? 

[elus0814]

Originally Posted by VisionaryMom 

Originally Posted by cristeen 

Originally Posted by elus0814 

It's a Catholic school. The parish partially funds the school but it's not clear to what extent. The tuition is $8000 and the laundry list of fees comes to nearly another $3000. It's way, way more expensive than any Catholic school I've ever heard of. The school I went to as a child had a much lower tuition. It's currently up to $3400 a year plus $250 in fees. 

Hate to say it, but $3400 is ridiculously low in this day and age.  And even $8K is pretty low IMO.  Around here, non-parochial private schools are $15K/yr.  The Catholic HS that I went to is closing it's doors at the end of this school year after 130 years because even at $15K+, tuition is not sufficient to cover the expenses of running the school. 

As a comparison, we're paying $4500 for Catholic preschool for dd next year. We are in a low cost-of-living area, and the cost beginning in kindergarten is around $7000.  So I don't see the price of this school in particular (esp with the info that there are only 250 students) are particularly high, to be honest.

What about homeschooling them? That may be an easier option and definitely would be cheaper. You could afford some babysitting hours to get a break if you're not paying the tuition.

You're right, homeschooling is cheap by comparison. We spend around $500 on books and materials for both of them. I'd say another $500 for other things. It's very inexpensive for a quality education.

We've been homeschooling. It's pulling teeth to get anything done with the two little ones around plus the kids want to go to school. They went for a couple month to a Catholic school while we were in the process of moving and enjoyed it. We could afford babysitting but finding a babysitter who is both old enough and willing to watch four kids at one time has been pretty much impossible for us. There is the on base daycare and in home providers but they are not allowed to take unvaccinated kids (I'm able to get an exemption for the school). We have found it to be really easy to find 12 and 13 year old babysitters but four kids are often difficult for me to handle, I don't feel it's safe to leave them with someone that young. I tried a mother's helper but the kids spent the whole time trying to see what I was doing and didn't want to stay with the girl watching them. 

[midnightwriter]

With all the policies and restrictions, and the mindless tasks volunteers are assigned, it doesn't look at all like they want parents to volunteer. They want the extra money.

[journeymom]

I urge you to talk to whomever is in charge at the school about this, rather than speculating about their intentions.  You can politely say that you have real reservations about some of these policies and would they please address your concerns. 

I completely agree, these policies are really off-putting.  But I assume you wouldn't make such a big decision, about what school to put your child in, without asking lots of questions.

[pjs]

Where I live Catholic schools are closing their doors left and right. Many"Catholic" families send their kids to the parish school and identify themselves as parishioners in order to get the discount (much bigger than$400 here though, so maybe that's part of our problem) yet I've never seen many of these families at Mass, ever. In fact, this week is Catholic schools week and we went to the Catholic schoolnMass and i was wondering where are these kids that go to this school. Where I live, the parish and the diocese pays a substantial subsidy to the schools and tution rarely covers the costs of educating the child (we no longer have nuns teaching for free). Where I live, we are all suffering during this economic downturn, wages are down and costs are up. Parish donations are down and essentially a private school education is being had by many families on the backs of true parishioners ( we homeschool so perhaps I am a bit begrudging, my parish offers NO homeschool support whatsoever). The way I see it is your parish is committed to having a school not just for this generation but for all generations. If we had had a bit more of that foresight here we might not have to close all of our schools within the next ten years.

As for background checks, um, given the scandal that has plagued the Church around the world, they have become necessary. So having parents reject the background check truly makes no sense to me. In this sense and for other liability reasons, it makes sense to me that only enrolled children and approved volunteers are on the grounds.

Yes, that means that there are a lot of parents around, but it helps reduce the temptation to get a private school education for essentially less than the cost of daycare ( which sadly tends to be the norm around here), with parents still complaining about the costs. Gone are the days when you were baptized, confirmed, married in the same church, where your lifetime contributions to the parish far exceeded the discount on the tuition rate you paid for school. Where parish membership didn't decline steadily year after year because parishioners are picking and choosing which rules to follow.

It is surprising though that as a Catholic school there aren't other families with childcare issues ( though considering the avg # of kids per family in my diocese is probably 2 or less perhaps not so much).

I'd pay the fee and be done with it. Let whomever offers the slightest indication that you are somehow "less than" come over and watch your kids while you go and volunteer

[pjs]

Where I live Catholic schools are closing their doors left and right. Many"Catholic" families send their kids to the parish school and identify themselves as parishioners in order to get the discount (much bigger than$400 here though, so maybe that's part of our problem) yet I've never seen many of these families at Mass, ever. In fact, this week is Catholic schools week and we went to the Catholic schoolnMass and i was wondering where are these kids that go to this school. Where I live, the parish and the diocese pays a substantial subsidy to the schools and tution rarely covers the costs of educating the child (we no longer have nuns teaching for free). Where I live, we are all suffering during this economic downturn, wages are down and costs are up. Parish donations are down and essentially a private school education is being had by many families on the backs of true parishioners ( we homeschool so perhaps I am a bit begrudging, my parish offers NO homeschool support whatsoever). The way I see it is your parish is committed to having a school not just for this generation but for all generations. If we had had a bit more of that foresight here we might not have to close all of our schools within the next ten years.

As for background checks, um, given the scandal that has plagued the Church around the world, they have become necessary. So having parents reject the background check truly makes no sense to me. In this sense and for other liability reasons, it makes sense to me that only enrolled children and approved volunteers are on the grounds.

Yes, that means that there are a lot of parents around, but it helps reduce the temptation to get a private school education for essentially less than the cost of daycare ( which sadly tends to be the norm around here), with parents still complaining about the costs. Gone are the days when you were baptized, confirmed, married in the same church, where your lifetime contributions to the parish far exceeded the discount on the tuition rate you paid for school. Where parish membership didn't decline steadily year after year because parishioners are picking and choosing which rules to follow. Eta- where I live most private schools, even religious ones other than Catholic, run about 8,000-15,000/year, so Catholic school at $3500 is a bargain and many people take advantage of that without a second thought, "Catholics" and noncatholics alike.

It is surprising though that as a Catholic school there aren't other families with childcare issues ( though considering the avg # of kids per family in my diocese is probably 2 or less perhaps not so much).

I'd pay the fee and be done with it. Let whomever offers the slightest indication that you are somehow "less than" come over and watch your kids while you go and volunteer

As for the official tithing, well many synagogues ask members to pay annual dues and for Mormons tithing is a pretty standard thing too I believe, so it doesn't strike me as so horrific if another place of worship strongly encourages the same.

[APToddlerMama]

Originally Posted by pjs

As for the official tithing, well many synagogues ask members to pay annual dues and for Mormons tithing is a pretty standard thing too I believe, so it doesn't strike me as so horrific if another place of worship strongly encourages the same.

 
They aren't strongly encouraging it.  They are not allowing people to belong to the church if they don't do it, and they are going so far as to verify they are getting what they deem as their fair share.  I find that repulsive.
 

[St. Margaret]

ugh, as a catholic i know all about tithing but i've never attended a church where you must tithe to be a member, you simply sign up (and then get asked for money a lot, lol).  thats terribly divisive imo. 

i;d set up a babysitting swap... but honestly this would make me personally HS instead

[cristeen]

Originally Posted by elus0814 
christeen -  I feel the school is very expensive for an elementary school. High schools are significantly more. I've talked to a couple dozen people about it and everyone as agreed that it's a pricy school because there are no other options for Catholic parents who prefer their children no attend a non-Catholic school or the public schools.

Yeah, the $15,400 is what one of the private non-religious schools is here, starting in K. Dont know about the others, but i'm told that price is "normal" for the area. My guy is a few years from K still, and we're having to think ahead - we'd never be able to swing that if I SAH.

[mar123]

I live a very Catholic area. We have about 64 Catholic elementary schools and 12 Catholic high schools in the metro area. We rank second in the nation in parents who send their children to non-public schools.

Elementary runs 3500-5000 a year. High school runs about 8000 a year. I have heard of churches that want to know your income and base what you give on that; I wouldn't join a church that did that. No one knows our bills, who we help, etc. To be a supporting member of the parish we pay 400 a  year. that's its.

My children are required to do service hours, I am not. There is a free tuition drawing for parents who complete a certain number of hours.

To the OP, it does sound like your options are limited. Good luck with what you decide.

[elus0814]

Originally Posted by mar123 

I live a very Catholic area. We have about 64 Catholic elementary schools and 12 Catholic high schools in the metro area. We rank second in the nation in parents who send their children to non-public schools.

Elementary runs 3500-5000 a year. High school runs about 8000 a year. I have heard of churches that want to know your income and base what you give on that; I wouldn't join a church that did that. No one knows our bills, who we help, etc. To be a supporting member of the parish we pay 400 a  year. that's its.

My children are required to do service hours, I am not. There is a free tuition drawing for parents who complete a certain number of hours.

To the OP, it does sound like your options are limited. Good luck with what you decide.

We moved last summer from a diocese where there are 72 Catholic elementary schools and 15 Catholic high schools, it's near where I grew up. The schools are all in the $3000-5000 range for elementary and $7000-15000 for high school. I don't mind the kids having to do service hours. I had to do them in 8th grade for conformation and again my senior year in a public high school. I feel like this school being one of only two in a large in square miles diocese gives them what they see as permission to charge whatever they can get people to pay. 

[purslaine]

I would just pay the 20$ a week.  If you do it weekly as 20$ it may seem better than paying goodness knows what at the end.

I understand why they have mandatory volunteer hours, and I understand why they have to be done at school without littles present.  Understanding does not make it any easier for you, though.

cynical question - if you choose to pay and do not go in, and other parents do extra volunteer work to cover you hours, are those parents or a staff member being paid?  Or is the school pocketing the extra?  If I were paying to not volunteer, I would expect those dollars would go towards paying someone to do my work portion. I would not be Ok if they talked someone into volunteering more and pocketed the difference.  Even if the school  needed the money, it would seem like a money grub and rub me the wrong way.