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Circumcision and the Law? - Page 2

post #21 of 30
Thread Starter 

This thread has really been a learning experience for me. I didn't mean to start a debate on routine infant circumcision. But I was thinking that if there are risks with routine circ, then logically, there must also be (at least some) risks with ritual. Especially if it is done in a hospital, the exact same risks, I would think.

 

I understand that in the Jewish faith it is done by a mohel. Is there any such person in the Islam faith?

post #22 of 30

There's no Muslim equivalent of a mohel.  People just use a medical professional--and it doesn't matter if they are Muslim or not.

 

Most Muslims (that I'm aware of) have it done in the hospital by the OB.  I have no idea if CNM do the operation or not.  I know some peds do as well--but typically in the US, it's an OB.  I do know a few Muslim families who used a mohel as well. 

 

post #23 of 30
I don't disagree with circ either, and you would be hard pressed to find me contradicting the validity of so plainly established a sunnah. Definitely not trying to lay the groundwork for a debate on the place of circumcision in Islam. orngbiggrin.gif Just wondering, largely because -- while I do not tend to go around asking after the circumcision status of the men I meet, so can't really comment on how absolutely rare the tendency is -- I have known a few devout parents who have decided against circumcising the sons. I have also more than once, on this board and elsewhere, said explicitly that circumcision does not by definition affect the performance of religious duties ... I know that is a valid point of view, legally speaking, but I also have always thought it to be a majority view. I could be way off about that, though. I don't really know.

Treece: as far as I know in most places whether circumcision is performed in a medical setting or by a lay practitioner has a lot to do with socioeconomic status. But, with some exceptions, lay practitioners are not specialized religious figures ... rather like how men are religiously advised to trim their hair, but barbers are still just barbers.
post #24 of 30

Just for further clarification, the only "specialized religious figure" status a mohel has is that he's a specialist in circumcising boys.  No other religious status.

 

Technically, the requirement is on the father to perform the bris, and since most fathers aren't specialists, they delegate the actual circumcision part of a bris to a mohel.  

post #25 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post

I don't disagree with circ either, and you would be hard pressed to find me contradicting the validity of so plainly established a sunnah. Definitely not trying to lay the groundwork for a debate on the place of circumcision in Islam. orngbiggrin.gif Just wondering, largely because -- while I do not tend to go around asking after the circumcision status of the men I meet, so can't really comment on how absolutely rare the tendency is -- I have known a few devout parents who have decided against circumcising the sons. I have also more than once, on this board and elsewhere, said explicitly that circumcision does not by definition affect the performance of religious duties ... I know that is a valid point of view, legally speaking, but I also have always thought it to be a majority view. I could be way off about that, though. I don't really know.

Treece: as far as I know in most places whether circumcision is performed in a medical setting or by a lay practitioner has a lot to do with socioeconomic status. But, with some exceptions, lay practitioners are not specialized religious figures ... rather like how men are religiously advised to trim their hair, but barbers are still just barbers.


I'm not trying to debate it either, I am trying to gain an understanding. I am an intactivist, but have always wondered how I truly feel about the religious aspect. I am not religious, not even a tiny bit. I was raised Methodist/Baptist, but now rarely step into a church, not even for Easter, Christmas, and what's the other? Um, anyway, you get the picture.

 

Thanks for your response I am gaining a greater understanding.

post #26 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treece View Post





I'm not trying to debate it either


I meant between umsami and myself, or within Islam in general. wink1.gif
post #27 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMJ View Post

I am not Jewish, and I would never have my son circumcised, but I believe very strongly in my faith, and I can only assume that if I were Jewish, I would believe equally strongly in the need for my son to enter into the covenant through circumcision (though I would like to believe that I would favor a more ancient form of the rite that only removes a small piece of the foreskin, but I can't really say what I would believe since I don't).  That said, I don't think you can talk about banning circumcision without talking about religion because it is so integral to the Jewish (and other?) faith.  It would be religious discrimination, plain and simple, to outlaw circumcision without a religious exception.


Thats actually not the case.  For it to be considered violative of the 1st amendment free exercise clause, it would need to be restrictive of belief not conduct (religious belief is absolutely protected in all circumstances, religious conduct is not absolutely protected).  When religious conduct is restricted, it is not a violation of the first amendment if the restriction is neutral and is of general applicability.  Banning all infant circ would therefore not be violative of the fist amendment free exercise clause.  Banning only religious circ on the other hand would violate the first amendment.

 

ETA - just wanted to say that I'm not trying to start a first amendment debate - just passing on what I know about how the free exercise clause works (thank you bar review).

post #28 of 30

Umsami - I have to agree with you.  I'm Jewish and a lot of people ask me why I wouldn't wait and let my child choose whether or not to be Jewish.  But I would be failing my obligations as a parent, if I didn't raise my daughter (or future children) Jewish and teach her the traditions and rituals.

 

~Abrah

post #29 of 30

I believe the circumcision laws are manmade and have nothing to do with creator. To answer the question the procedure would never happen in my family if I were to have a son no matter what the religion of my spouse. I don't believe God even cares about circumcision and if God really wanted circumcision boys would have been born circumcised. I am sorry if this post sounds offensive but this is how I feel.


Edited by ThomasL - 3/24/12 at 12:39pm
post #30 of 30

I'm curious about this idea that being uncircumcised invalidates Salah. I am a convert and my son is almost 3, uncircumcised, and was born before I converted. I am divorced from his father and his father is not a Muslim. If it were just up to me, I might choose to have my son circumcised (although personally it really bothers me, I believe it is a Sunnah and that there is great purpose and symbolism in it). I doubt that it's legal to have him circumcised without his father's consent, and despite my religious beliefs about it being highly recommended, I feel like it would be extremely disrespectful and unethical to try and have it done without his father's support. I would go to great lengths to protect my children from any religious body modification that was not from my own religion, and I imagine my son's father would too. 

 

All that said, I can't imagine that his prayers once he reaches the age of accountability will be invalid because of this, although Allahu alim. One can't discount intention and I know that God understands the situation and all factors involved. 

 

I'm inspired to learn more about this now--grateful for that--but as far as I know circumcision is not fard (obligatory) and it is not mentioned in the Qur'an. I'm pretty sure that in some countries it is common to have it done closer to puberty. 

 

With any future sons I have with my current husband, I'm fairly certain we would go to lengths to have him circ'd even if there were laws against it. I would want to wait until at least the 8th day (I think there is great wisdom in that Jewish tradition...it's around that time that the baby's Vit K production kicks in, an important blood-clotter) and I would want someone VERY experienced.

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