voluntary termination of parental rights - Page 10

[ctflener]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Are you SHITTING me???  Do you have ANY idea how much it costs to raise a child?  There are expenses that you wouldn't even be able to fathom, because you don't raise your child and you simply want to lower your support payments.  Medical expenses, prescription meds, childcare can be OUTRAGEOUS (and I don't give a damn where anyone lives - $27,000/year income does not pay for rent, daycare, electric, heat, AC, internet, cable, medical insurance, car insurance, gas, parking, groceries for 2, etc.  It's just not possible). Children are expensive.  You want a relationship?  Go to court and get visitation.  Hire a lawyer - yes they are expensive I would know (I am one, plus i had to pay one for the most ridiculous STUPID custody battle ever b/c my kids dad is an asshole), but you have a right to a relationship with your child.  And all the excuses as to why you can't get one are stupid - they are merely excuses and show that its really not THAT important to you.

Considering you do not know my situation, you are in no position to tell me that anything I have done, am doing, or will do is "stupid".

To raise a child does cost money, but it costs less to raise a child in a smaller town/city than in a metro area...those are the facts, sorry if you don't like them.  I never once said anything about medical expenses, childcare, etc. would not be a part of the computation of support...they should be...but it would still cost less in a small town/city than in a larger metro area.

You don't know what I pay for support...so you have no idea whether I'm paying a lot right now or not.  Maybe, just maybe, I'm paying double the appropriate amount or more...and I'm just wanting it reduced to where it should be (according to state law as it is now).

I understand you (and many others here) have very strong opinions about things...however, I think it would do everyone some good to remove your past personal issues with your ex's or whatever and address people based on the information provided rather than making things up because that's what YOU had to deal with.

And just as an FYI, you keep throwing around that you are an attorney...that's great, but nothing special.  I have 3 undergraduate degrees, went to law school, and now working on my MPA/PhD.  I know what it takes to go to law school, I've work in law firms...it's nothing special at all.

[Imakcerka]

Uh you said you were behind... or did I read that wrong?  Doesn't matter anyway, we all know that the system can be messed up.  Lots of people run from responsibility and some stay.  I have a friend who drives two states over once a month to see his daughters.  And he can't afford to feed himself.  He's not crying about it.  He comes back with bajillions of pictures and great stories.  He spends a lot but I guess that's because those kids are his life.  The ex is not a terrible person but can't afford much herself. 

You just have to try!  Giving up is sad.

[csekywithlove]

Originally Posted by ctflener 

I've read through these posts, and some of it is good info and some of it makes me laugh out loud.

First, for those who have been saying there is NO double-standard, you should understand first what a double-standard means:

: a set of principles that applies differently and usually more rigorously to one group of people or circumstances than to another

In this case, what is being described is, without a doubt, a double standard.  Someone stated that each person has a chance to back out (man at intercourse and woman at developed fetus).  Well, that is a different standard, and I think we can all agree that one provides a substantially different set of options than the other.

For those comments about 2 sides to every story...I agree.  I'll try to stick to an open perspective here, but I'm sure my daughter's mother would see some things differently.  However, facts are still facts.

I'd also like to explain my own situation, and possibly get a few comments that could help.  My daughter was born 7.5 years ago.  I was first informed about 3 months into the pregnancy via email...which stated she wanted nothing to do with me and "nothing from me".  I tried contacting her after that but she moved.  The next time I heard from the mother was when I was served papers for child support enforcement.  The mother was on state assistance, and the state wanted money.  The mother had a choice whether to list me or not, and she chose to list me (so much for not wanting me involved I guess).  I took the paternity test and she is my daughter.  I made the necessary arrangements for child support and was able to get 2 visits with my daughter when she was around 6 months old (which doesn't really offer much since they don't really interact much).  The 2 visits were a total of 2 hours.

Who else would she list but you since you are the biological father? If she was on state assistance, perhaps she actually needed it to take care of your child, for which I can't blame her a bit. State assistance can put food in the home for your child, help pay bills, medical expenses etc. Sounds to me like she wanted to care for the child you made together, just didn't want a relationship with you. 

I continued making payments, but because the state of Missouri does not handle visitation through Family Services, I was at the whim of the mother.  If she wanted me to see my daughter, I could...if she didn't, I couldn't.  My only fix for this was to file with the court to have a visitation order put in place.  While this seems to be logical, it's also very expensive...even more so because I no longer lived in Missouri, and local attorneys wanted outrageous retainers to ensure payment of their fees (since I was out of state).  I tried filing myself 11 different times.  They were all rejected or ignored by the court for numerous and ridiculous reasons.

This is not just the state of Missouri. In many states support and visitation are two totally separate things. All that the CS office cares about is that the child gets the financial support that has been calculated as due to care for the needs of your child. Anyone who has been through any sort of custody disagreement will tell you that you should have got a lawyer and pursued visitation rights. If you did not have enough money they would most likely provide you with a state appointed attorney based on your income which is what my DH had when he went to court for custody of my DSS. 

I was able to see my daughter 3 times during the summer she turned 3.  I saw her in May for her birthday, then June when I paid for her and her mother to come to the grand opening of my first business (I had to pay all expenses including food, hotel, gas, etc. or the mother said she wouldn't come), and then in July for an Independence Day festival.  Since that time, the mother has not allowed me to see her, and refuses to set up a visitation schedule for us to submit to the court.

This sounds to me like she really tried. Just like you said above, we are only getting your side of the story. How do we know what her take on these visitations were? 

The mother has, on numerous occasions, requested my child support be changed (increased).  When I closed my first business and had limited income, I requested it be reduced...and to my shock, they raised it by just over 50%!  They took 2 separate "potential" incomes that were completely mutually exclusive (I couldn't possibly earn them both...it had to be one or the other), and my support rose dramatically.

I've never known of CS to take two "potential" incomes into account, you must have had a solid source of income or a rise in income from selling your closed business. They will not raise CS that much unless they believe that you can pay. Most CS offices are willing to work with you so that at least you pay what you can to support your child. 

I wanted something very basic...visitation with my daughter.  My request was visitation every other weekend and extended time in the summers (we are 3 states apart and 1 evening a week doesn't make sense...but I wanted that time compiled for more time in the summer).  I agreed to meet her half way for pick up and drop off as well.  She, on the other hand, refused.  Originally, she said she would only do it if I paid all her expenses to get to the pickup/dropoff point.  I originally refused.  Later, I agreed to this, and she decided at that point to remove herself from the discussion.

At that point I decided not to pay child support.  I had been paying for years, thousands of dollars (mostly based on inaccurate calculations), and yet I still had only seen my daughter a total of 5 different times.  I wasn't a deadbeat.  I wasn't ignoring my daughter.  I wanted to see her, tried numerous ways to see her...and I had been paying.

I'm sorry, but what? You stopped paying child support? Instead of contacting the CS office and trying to actually work something out, you just STOPPED? How does that compute? You saw your daughter five times, she had to know who you were especially after those visits at the age of three, she would remember. Why punish the child financially because her mother wasn't cooperating? That doesn't sound fair to her.

Fast-forward to today (which is why I'm on here in the first place).  I'm $18,000 in arrears.  I'm currently unemployed, looking for work, and heading back to school for a joint Masters/PhD.  I still haven't seen my daughter, and her mother won't discuss anything.

You can't support your child but you can go back to school and go further into debt? Did you know that if you pay even a percentage of that child support, you still are in the eyes of the court trying to provide? Now if you went to court how would it look if you were $18,000 in arrears and were not making any attempt to pay even partially? It would look like you were a deadbeat dad. Plain and simple.

At this point, I'd like to give up my parental "rights" (as if I really have any other than to pay her support) and end the child support payments.  I know in Missouri that a custodial parent can eliminate arrears owed to them (a simple form does that), but I'm at a point in my life that I just don't see anything getting better with regard to this.  I've never had a connection with my daughter.  I don't think I ever will be allowed to (until she is 18 or at least old enough to understand what is going on).  The financial burden is extraordinary...and for what exactly?  I still don't get to see my daughter.

Connection? She is your daughter! There is a connection and it will come. She is part yours! If you really want to see her, file for custody! Why have you let it go on so long without seeing her? Because it was probably the easiest thing for you to do! Out of sight and out of mind. If you really cared about her, you would fight for visitation and not complain about the CS and say you want to give up your rights!

My question for this forum is the following:

Can 2 consenting parents terminate the father's rights and remove the child support obligation in the state of Missouri?

I'd like to say that while there are many deadbeat fathers out there (and some deadbeat mothers...some with custody of children even), not all fathers who don't pay support are deadbeats.  Some have tremendous financial obligations and the courts do not work in the non-custodial parents favor.  Others have tried playing by the rules and keep getting screwed...so they give up (me).  I absolutely could make a child support payment tomorrow (from my savings), but to what end?

The idea that Family Support Divisions ONLY deal with support issues is ridiculous to me.  If you have a divorce, the visitation is structured generally at that time.  However, in cases where the parents were never married there needs to be something set up to establish visitation.  In Missouri, there isn't.

Such bull. My DH was making minimum wage, working forty hours a week and he fought for DSS. He did every single thing the court required of him after petitioning for residential custody and he WON! DH and DSS's bio mom were never married but DH knew that he had to get residential custody in order for DSS to have a normal life! And he does! DH had nothing but his clothes, a box of family photos, and his son when we began dating. Now he has a full time job, we are fixing to buy a second car, a wonderful home and support system and we are expecting our first child together. It can be done. People can make things work if they want them hard enough.

Finally, with regard to the overall concept of having kids, abortion, support, etc.  When 2 adults consent to have sex, they are making a choice together.  It's not 1 adult making a choice for them both (or as some have put it the man impregnating the woman)...it's both adults consenting.  They are both able to make THAT choice.

Once the child has been conceived, you have a whole new set of choices to be made, and this is where the double-standard really is emphasized.  The father can be completely left out of the choices.  A mother can abort the child...even if the father wants the child.  The mother can keep the child...even if the father wants to abort the child.  The father has no rights at all at this point.

I'm not saying the father should be able to walk-away from the situation.  I do think child support should be addressed, but so should visitation, and other issues (and it's always funny to hear Family Services talk about "best interest of the child" when a father isn't even  allowed to see the child).  Child support should not be based on incomes.  Child support should be a set amount based on where a person lives and the cost of living in that location.  It's the only fair way to do it.

Example (while exaggerated, similar situations happen regularly):

A father lives in New York City, and has a decent job making $100,000 a year, but living in NYC, he also has substantial expenses.  If he had the same job in Missouri (for instance), he would only make about $30,000 a year, and his expenses would be less.  The mother, living in BFE Missouri, has a basic job making $27,000, but her expenses are very low because of where she lives.  When calculating support based on incomes, there is $127,000 of income total, and the father would have to pay a substantial amount in support.  The support would likely be enough to pay all the rent, utilities, and possibly a car payment for the mother (and if the mother decided to quit her job, she would get a bit more, and likely not have to work at all...and still be fine).

If child support were based on location rather than income, a simple basic amount would be determined, and parents would simply split the amount based on the amount of time the child is with each parent.  For instance, you could take the cost of living in BFE Missouri (very minimal) and create a calculation and then a set amount for support.  Regardless of how much the father makes, the support is set to PROVIDE for the child.

I'd love to get some feedback on my post...and I'm sorry it got to be so long. :)

All of my comments come from someone who has been to hell and back with the man she loves to provide a happy home for my wonderful step son. DH pushed and tried so hard to get rights and guess what, we got them!

It makes me sick to think that you would give up on your daughter. It's not fair to her. The child support can be a burden, yes. But just like the local CS lady told me, even if my DSS's bio mom didn't pay, she still had visitation rights to that child. And her child support is only $60.00 a month!

So go get some visitation rights, you still have another ten years of paying child support and you have that whole time to get to know your child. If you really want to be fair to your daughter, let her get to know you.

 

[ctflener]

In response to the last two posts:

I guess I just came to the wrong place to seek common sense, understanding advice.

I know there are a few people on here who can understand my frustration (as they have already commented as such previously in the thread).  My sole goal has been to see my daughter.  I have tried.  I don't have an attorney, and cannot afford one simply because the retainer to get started is too high.  I can't magically make the money appear.  I have filed pro se 11 times, and they have all been rejected by the courts.  It is very irritating to get a response telling me to "try", when I have been.  That doesn't answer my question, nor does it help the situation...but then again, many/most on here aren't out to help anyone, only to promote their own ideology.

I can make the trip 2 states away, and would gladly do it.  That is not the issue.  The issue is that when I get there, I'm not being allowed to see my daughter.  Without a visitation order, I have no recourse when she tells me to leave.  (and she has on multiple occasions said I could see my daughter, only to "change her mind" AFTER I traveled out there to see her)

Some of the comments in RED on the last post have no bearing at all, and without knowing facts are completely baseless (but that seems to be the trend here in this forum).  I will address a couple of them though.  I realize that in most states Support and Visitation are separate.  They do this so that a father who doesn't want to see his kids (rejects visitation) still has to financially support them.  That is NOT the case here.  I'm being penalized, even though I had been supporting my daughter.

Just because you have never known them to take 2 potential incomes, doesn't mean they haven't and don't.  As if you have researched EVER case ever filed...laughable!  To provide more detail, they took a "projected" income for me based on my education.  I'd be fine with that because that is what the law states (I disagree with the law, but that is another issue).  However, they also included actual income from a 1-time sale of my business (and they failed to take into account any losses connected to the business prior).  They projected this income out over a year going forward, and divided to create a monthly amount.  The issue is that you can't, by law, use ACTUAL income and POTENTIAL income combined to create the income used for child support.  I was fine with one, or the other...but not both.

Unfortunately, this hit even harder as I was unable to find gainful employment...so rather than earning the projected income they had, I wasn't earning much of anything.  As a note...the CSE office screwed up the incomes even further to begin with, and I appealed to an administrative law judge.  This is who error above.  Additionally, he refused to use her upcoming contractual income.  She was "at the time" making around minimum wage, part-time, but had completed college finally and was contracted to start working as a teacher in less than 2 months.  He refused to use her upcoming income (which was substantially higher), meaning that the end result was even further distorted.

I have filed on 3 occasions to have the support reviewed, and was denied the first 2 times, waiting to hear on this third one.

I never said I didn't contact their office...I did contact their office.  When they denied my request, I stopped paying for 2 reasons.  1. I wasn't working, and had minimal funds available.  2. It still wasn't right that I had to pay support while not being allowed to see my daughter.  And just as an note...you mentioned that not paying was not "fair to my daughter"...neither is keeping her from her father (as her mother is doing)...it's funny how people seem to gloss over the things a mother does/doesn't do, but want to demonize what a father does/doesn't do.

I'm aware than any payment is "trying to provide"...and yes, I can go back to school and go further into debt.  Once again, you do not know the details of my situation, while presuming to.  If the court wants to see me as a "deadbeat dad", that is their choice.  The fact that they have an opinion is a problem in itself.  The court should be administering the law, period.  They should be looking at the facts of the case and administering what the law says, nothing more...which would mean labeling me a "deadbeat dad" should have no bearing whatsoever.

I guess you just don't read...I have tried to see her!  When a mother doesn't allow you to, and the courts don't accept your pleadings, it's a very daunting task.  I have been trying...and outside of taking her without permission, I don't have options at this time.

I really thought my posting might bring in some decent comments/posts that might help me with this issue.  Unfortunately, I'm not too cool with being berated by people who don't know the extent/details of the situation.  I asked a simple question, and provided a good deal of information...to which, people have completely ignored the details so that they could berate me (nice!).

Nothing can be accomplished if people aren't interested in helping each other.  Unfortunately, I don't think the people on this thread (at least those responding at this time) have any intention of helping anyone...only spouting their own (often faulty) ideology.

[Imakcerka]

Ok you want to hear that you should just give up your rights.  So petition the court to do so.  Why do you care what we think then?  You don't need someone to tell you to do what you want to do.  Nobody here can tell you what to do it's your life. 

Do you want us to say go for it.  Your Ex is a jerk and you have suffered...  Seriously what do you want to hear?

[Adaline'sMama]

Originally Posted by ctflener 

I just wanted to point out an obvious fact here.  These women are CHOOSING to be with those types of guys.

And what of all the women who are stuck in abusive relationships with men? And what about all the women in this country alone who are raped and beaten by these men that they "choose" to be with? Are they all "choosing" to be with these types of men? Often times women dont feel like they have a choice, or they are terrified to leave, or they cant afford to leave. Sit there from your spot in this patriarchal society and tell me about how all these women "choose" to be in these relationships.

Originally Posted by ctflener 

In response to the last two posts:

I guess I just came to the wrong place to seek common sense, understanding advice.

I know there are a few people on here who can understand my frustration (as they have already commented as such previously in the thread).  My sole goal has been to see my daughter.  I have tried.  I don't have an attorney, and cannot afford one simply because the retainer to get started is too high.  I can't magically make the money appear.  I have filed pro se 11 times, and they have all been rejected by the courts.  It is very irritating to get a response telling me to "try", when I have been.  That doesn't answer my question, nor does it help the situation...but then again, many/most on here aren't out to help anyone, only to promote their own ideology.

I can make the trip 2 states away, and would gladly do it.  That is not the issue.  The issue is that when I get there, I'm not being allowed to see my daughter.  Without a visitation order, I have no recourse when she tells me to leave.  (and she has on multiple occasions said I could see my daughter, only to "change her mind" AFTER I traveled out there to see her)

Some of the comments in RED on the last post have no bearing at all, and without knowing facts are completely baseless (but that seems to be the trend here in this forum).  I will address a couple of them though.  I realize that in most states Support and Visitation are separate.  They do this so that a father who doesn't want to see his kids (rejects visitation) still has to financially support them.  That is NOT the case here.  I'm being penalized, even though I had been supporting my daughter.

Just because you have never known them to take 2 potential incomes, doesn't mean they haven't and don't.  As if you have researched EVER case ever filed...laughable!  To provide more detail, they took a "projected" income for me based on my education.  I'd be fine with that because that is what the law states (I disagree with the law, but that is another issue).  However, they also included actual income from a 1-time sale of my business (and they failed to take into account any losses connected to the business prior).  They projected this income out over a year going forward, and divided to create a monthly amount.  The issue is that you can't, by law, use ACTUAL income and POTENTIAL income combined to create the income used for child support.  I was fine with one, or the other...but not both.

Unfortunately, this hit even harder as I was unable to find gainful employment...so rather than earning the projected income they had, I wasn't earning much of anything.  As a note...the CSE office screwed up the incomes even further to begin with, and I appealed to an administrative law judge.  This is who error above.  Additionally, he refused to use her upcoming contractual income.  She was "at the time" making around minimum wage, part-time, but had completed college finally and was contracted to start working as a teacher in less than 2 months.  He refused to use her upcoming income (which was substantially higher), meaning that the end result was even further distorted.

I have filed on 3 occasions to have the support reviewed, and was denied the first 2 times, waiting to hear on this third one.

I never said I didn't contact their office...I did contact their office.  When they denied my request, I stopped paying for 2 reasons.  1. I wasn't working, and had minimal funds available.  2. It still wasn't right that I had to pay support while not being allowed to see my daughter.  And just as an note...you mentioned that not paying was not "fair to my daughter"...neither is keeping her from her father (as her mother is doing)...it's funny how people seem to gloss over the things a mother does/doesn't do, but want to demonize what a father does/doesn't do.

I'm aware than any payment is "trying to provide"...and yes, I can go back to school and go further into debt.  Once again, you do not know the details of my situation, while presuming to.  If the court wants to see me as a "deadbeat dad", that is their choice.  The fact that they have an opinion is a problem in itself.  The court should be administering the law, period.  They should be looking at the facts of the case and administering what the law says, nothing more...which would mean labeling me a "deadbeat dad" should have no bearing whatsoever.

I guess you just don't read...I have tried to see her!  When a mother doesn't allow you to, and the courts don't accept your pleadings, it's a very daunting task.  I have been trying...and outside of taking her without permission, I don't have options at this time.

I really thought my posting might bring in some decent comments/posts that might help me with this issue.  Unfortunately, I'm not too cool with being berated by people who don't know the extent/details of the situation.  I asked a simple question, and provided a good deal of information...to which, people have completely ignored the details so that they could berate me (nice!).

Nothing can be accomplished if people aren't interested in helping each other.  Unfortunately, I don't think the people on this thread (at least those responding at this time) have any intention of helping anyone...only spouting their own (often faulty) ideology.

If you feel that the easiest thing to do would be to give up your rights, I think you sould do it. One day your daughter will come to you and want to know why it is that her daddy could afford a masters degree but couldnt afford to support her or fight for her in court. Have you thought about how you will respond to that? I cant imagine my husband not fighting me tooth and nail for our kids, even if he didnt know them, because they are HIS. Excuses are just that. Excuses. If you wanted your daughter, I feel that you would have found a way to afford navigating the court system

[csekywithlove]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

Ok you want to hear that you should just give up your rights.  So petition the court to do so.  Why do you care what we think then?  You don't need someone to tell you to do what you want to do.  Nobody here can tell you what to do it's your life. 

Do you want us to say go for it.  Your Ex is a jerk and you have suffered...  Seriously what do you want to hear?

This is exactly what he wants to hear. And just so you KNOW, replying in RED is the only way to reply to a post as long as yours was. Check out some other threads, people do that on MDC forums all the time. Based on what you said, we responded, going off of the information you gave. And if you can travel two states away for visitation, but not afford a retainer fee? Yeah, you are really pulling at my heartstrings here. I know that you have tried to see her, but guess what, without an actual visitation agreement (which you go to court to establish) her mother doesn't have to let you see your daughter. 

I would NEVER tell anyone that it is okay for them to give up their rights or that I understood. I beg my DSS's bio mom to co-parent! She doesn't want to! Sounds like you don't want to do anything but give up. Well then do it, go ahead. But you will not be able to terminate your rights unless there is someone who would adopt her, like her mother's husband. The law wants children to have two legal parents. As for being $18,000 in arrears, I would start paying something because sooner or later your ex is going to wise up and get the ball rolling in court to get that money. 

You have ten years to either pay your child support and boohoo about not seeing your child, or do something about it and pay the court. You aren't getting out of this anytime soon at least not with how the laws stand now. And as far as sympathy, you won't get it from me. If you truly cared about your child the thought to give up rights would never had crossed your mind.

[AdinaL]

I removed a couple of posts, and as of now ctflener has chosen to leave our community. I'm reopening this thread.