voluntary termination of parental rights - Page 3

[Smithie]

"His role in choosing is in regards to where he puts his sperm. That is when he has choice. Tons and tons and tons of choice."

I heard a similar remark once about women, only the phrase was "when she spreads her legs." That choice is not good enough for me and my daughters - and the moment-of-sperm-depositing choice is not good enough for my son. Forced birth and coerced paternity are two sides of the same sex-as-punishment coin. 

[JulianneW]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Originally Posted by JulianneW 

I never said he wanted a free pass. He wanted his child and was scared to death that she would decide to terminate the pregnancy. 

My point was that women get to choose wether a man becomes a father. She could have decided to terminate the pregnancy and he would have had no say in the matter even though he helped create the child and wanted it.

If men don't want to be fathers they shouldn't have sex, until and unless they know that they are shooting blanks.

Basically I disagree with Smithie b/c it seems she wants to punish women who have sex before marriage, but thinks that men should be able to with no repercussions whatsoever.  The double standard is nauseating.

I agree with you but I feel that way about men and women. Sex is the act of reproduction so no one should be surprised when the act of reproduction actually works.

I agree that men are responsible for their children. What I find upsetting is that a man that wants to be a father to his child can be denied that right by a woman that does not want to take responsibility. Yet a man that does not want to take responsibility has no choice in the matter.

The only solution I see is sex education. It seems to me a lot of people forget that sex=reproduction!

[Emmeline II]

Child support is generally viewed (by the state) as belonging to the child, not the mother, and a parent cannot cause that child not to have support unless there in another to take their place (like a step parent adopting the child).

For about $20 you can use a "people finder" search, then I would consult with a lawyer and get proactive about this before she goes to court and portrays him as the dead beat dad. The Single Parents board may have more information about this.
 

[Momsteader]

PP'ers are correct. He cannot just sign away his financial rights unless another person is willing to accept them. He certainly could sign away parental rights (i,e. seeing the child, having a say in decisions, etc.) but not the financial side until someone else takes over.

If she's on full assistance, he could likely call the state and provide his information to csed or dept of public assistance and they may have a case file open already.

[JulianneW]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Originally Posted by JulianneW 

My other friend had the father sign over parental rights. She is a single mother with sole legal rights and no child support.

Also, in most states, unless there is another person who wants to adopt the child, a man cannot sign over his rights.  He can say he doesn't want custody or visitation, and she can decide not to pursue support, but if she ever goes on welfare, the state can go knocking on his door.

He did sign over all legal rights. In her situation she is not on any kind of assistance, I am not sure what would happen if she ever did. I do know a man who found out he had a daughter when the state came knocking on his door.

[choli]

Originally Posted by Smithie 

 Forced birth and coerced paternity are two sides of the same sex-as-punishment coin. 

There is a lot of truth to that. I personally would never give birth to a baby that was not planned and wanted by both partners. I do agree about the inherent unfairness that the woman gets to choose and the man does not.  However, a child deserves to be supported by both parents once born.
 

[JulianneW]

Being an unplanned but wanted(by both my parents and siblings) surprise baby myself I am going to have to disagree with you on the unplanned part! 

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Smithie 

"His role in choosing is in regards to where he puts his sperm. That is when he has choice. Tons and tons and tons of choice."

I heard a similar remark once about women, only the phrase was "when she spreads her legs." That choice is not good enough for me and my daughters - and the moment-of-sperm-depositing choice is not good enough for my son. Forced birth and coerced paternity are two sides of the same sex-as-punishment coin. 

I agree with all of the bolded.  However, men and women know that man + woman sex can equal reproduction (ie, baby).  Abortion is not just a choice - for those who have never actually had to face that choice, its not an easy one to make (I have faced it, and chose not to have one - it was not an easy choice), its a MEDICAL procedure, that should not be legislated. 

When people choose to have sex, they are choosing to deal with the consequences.  Those consequences may be, but are not limited to: Paternity, Maternity, Abortion, ectopic pregnancy, stillbirth, death, traumatic birth, cesarean section, premature birth, etc.  None of these things are easy to swallow, necessarily, but are all possible outcomes of the one simple act of having sex.  Abortion can be a devastating thing for BOTH partners.  It can also be the right choice for one and the wrong choice for the other.  Paternity may be financially imposing on the father, but its DEFINITELY financially imposing on the mother.  When 2 partners have sex, they choose the consequences.  That may be forever mourning making the wrong decision.

People act like abortion is the easiest thing in the world emotionally and physically.  It's not.  It's a difficult choice with permanent results that affect 2 different people (3 if you count the fetus).  It's still a medical procedure that should not be legislated.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by choli 

Originally Posted by Smithie 

 Forced birth and coerced paternity are two sides of the same sex-as-punishment coin. 

There is a lot of truth to that. I personally would never give birth to a baby that was not planned and wanted by both partners. I do agree about the inherent unfairness that the woman gets to choose and the man does not.  However, a child deserves to be supported by both parents once born.
 

I also have to say that this is a very easy thing to say when that has never been a choice you've actually had to make.  Making a decision about abortion is very very difficult.

[AttunedMama]

Originally Posted by Smithie 

"His role in choosing is in regards to where he puts his sperm. That is when he has choice. Tons and tons and tons of choice."

I heard a similar remark once about women, only the phrase was "when she spreads her legs." That choice is not good enough for me and my daughters - and the moment-of-sperm-depositing choice is not good enough for my son. Forced birth and coerced paternity are two sides of the same sex-as-punishment coin. 

But the biology of the situation is this: The male does his end of the creation when he shares sperm. Full stop. At that point, he can fall over dead and any pregnancy will continue on. Not so with females, we 'have the ball' for a time, so to speak, and sometimes, in certain geographical and historical places, have been able to choose termination.

I'm not saying it's 'fair', it's just true. The point at which a man has biological control of his offspring is at erection/ejaculation. Not so for me and my uterus, although it is true that options after 'leg spreading' become more invasive/dangerous/not fun.

[JulianneW]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Originally Posted by Smithie 

"His role in choosing is in regards to where he puts his sperm. That is when he has choice. Tons and tons and tons of choice."

I heard a similar remark once about women, only the phrase was "when she spreads her legs." That choice is not good enough for me and my daughters - and the moment-of-sperm-depositing choice is not good enough for my son. Forced birth and coerced paternity are two sides of the same sex-as-punishment coin. 

I agree with all of the bolded.  However, men and women know that man + woman sex can equal reproduction (ie, baby).  Abortion is not just a choice - for those who have never actually had to face that choice, its not an easy one to make (I have faced it, and chose not to have one - it was not an easy choice), its a MEDICAL procedure, that should not be legislated. 

When people choose to have sex, they are choosing to deal with the consequences.  Those consequences may be, but are not limited to: Paternity, Maternity, Abortion, ectopic pregnancy, stillbirth, death, traumatic birth, cesarean section, premature birth, etc.  None of these things are easy to swallow, necessarily, but are all possible outcomes of the one simple act of having sex.  Abortion can be a devastating thing for BOTH partners.  It can also be the right choice for one and the wrong choice for the other.  Paternity may be financially imposing on the father, but its DEFINITELY financially imposing on the mother.  When 2 partners have sex, they choose the consequences.  That may be forever mourning making the wrong decision.

People act like abortion is the easiest thing in the world emotionally and physically.  It's not.  It's a difficult choice with permanent results that affect 2 different people (3 if you count the fetus).  It's still a medical procedure that should not be legislated.

This is why I feel sex education is soooo important! Being a very young girl when I started having sex, I am very lucky that I never had to deal with negative consequences of my actions. Many of my friends did, I was not better, I was not smarter and I was not necessarily safer. Condoms do break and birth control is not 100% effective.

Had I fully grasped the consequences that were a very REAL possibility I would not have been having sex at such a young age.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by JulianneW 

This is why I feel sex education is soooo important! Being a very young girl when I started having sex, I am very lucky that I never had to deal with negative consequences of my actions. Many of my friends did, I was not better, I was not smarter and I was not necessarily safer. Condoms do break and birth control is not 100% effective.

Had I fully grasped the consequences that were a very REAL possibility I would not have been having sex at such a young age.

YES!  Although the republican's are trying to kill that too with their "abstinence only" crap.

[JulianneW]

I don't agree with abstinence only education but I do think it should be included. At my HS in health class we had the abstinence talk and could sign the pledge to abstain but were also educated on birth control, STD's and pregnancy. 

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by JulianneW 

I don't agree with abstinence only education but I do think it should be included. At my HS in health class we had the abstinence talk and could sign the pledge to abstain but were also educated on birth control, STD's and pregnancy. 

Comprehensive education includes discussions about abstinence.  The problem is when students are taught only about abstinence.  Students need to know about STI's, condoms and how to use them, pregnancy, how expensive kids are, the legal implications of having sex with older teens/young adults, the legal implications of maternity/paternity, abortion, etc.
 

[Smithie]

Even though I'm not a fan of our current paternity laws, you'd never know it if you heard my IRL spiel to teens and my still-single peers WRT the possible consequences of sex. Even though I wish things were different, I will have little pity for my sons if they should become fathers without wanting to, because they will DARN WELL KNOW that sex can lead to fatherhood and the only way to 100% avoid the risk is not to have sex. 

[JulianneW]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Originally Posted by JulianneW 

I don't agree with abstinence only education but I do think it should be included. At my HS in health class we had the abstinence talk and could sign the pledge to abstain but were also educated on birth control, STD's and pregnancy. 

Comprehensive education includes discussions about abstinence.  The problem is when students are taught only about abstinence.  Students need to know about STI's, condoms and how to use them, pregnancy, how expensive kids are, the legal implications of having sex with older teens/young adults, the legal implications of maternity/paternity, abortion, etc.
 

I think the legal implications are very important and mostly left out. I was never educated on them. A boy that had gone to my HS was at a party he was 20, there was a mix of recently graduated and HS kids. While drunk he consensually slept with an underage girl. Her older sister told her parents, her parents pressed charges. Since the girl was underage and drunk it was ruled that she was unable to consent. It didn't matter that she wrote a letter to the judge, he was charged with rape and got the mandatory minimum sentence of 20 years. Obviously it was a very stupid decision. However, if they had been educated on the situation I highly doubt it would have happened. 

Technically my HS boyfriend was 2 years 2 months older than me so had my parents wanted to he could have been in a great deal of trouble.
 

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by JulianneW 

I think the legal implications are very important and mostly left out. I was never educated on them. A boy that had gone to my HS was at a party he was 20, there was a mix of recently graduated and HS kids. While drunk he consensually slept with an underage girl. Her older sister told her parents, her parents pressed charges. Since the girl was underage and drunk it was ruled that she was unable to consent. It didn't matter that she wrote a letter to the judge, he was charged with rape and got the mandatory minimum sentence of 20 years. Obviously it was a very stupid decision. However, if they had been educated on the situation I highly doubt it would have happened. 

Technically my HS boyfriend was 2 years 2 months older than me so had my parents wanted to he could have been in a great deal of trouble.
 

It doesn't matter that the girl was drunk, statutory rape is a strict liability crime, which means that consent is not a defense, and neither is not knowing that she was underage (I'm studying for the bar exam, so I'm having to memorize all this junk).

[JulianneW]

Yeah. They were both drunk and needless to say it didn't work out for him. He is now a felon rapist. It took me awhile to get over because I know quite a few people who could have been in the same boat with him. 

Good luck studying!

[JulianneW]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Originally Posted by JulianneW 

I think the legal implications are very important and mostly left out. I was never educated on them. A boy that had gone to my HS was at a party he was 20, there was a mix of recently graduated and HS kids. While drunk he consensually slept with an underage girl. Her older sister told her parents, her parents pressed charges. Since the girl was underage and drunk it was ruled that she was unable to consent. It didn't matter that she wrote a letter to the judge, he was charged with rape and got the mandatory minimum sentence of 20 years. Obviously it was a very stupid decision. However, if they had been educated on the situation I highly doubt it would have happened. 

Technically my HS boyfriend was 2 years 2 months older than me so had my parents wanted to he could have been in a great deal of trouble.
 

It doesn't matter that the girl was drunk, statutory rape is a strict liability crime, which means that consent is not a defense, and neither is not knowing that she was underage (I'm studying for the bar exam, so I'm having to memorize all this junk).

Kids need to know this!!!

[choli]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Originally Posted by choli 

Originally Posted by Smithie 

 Forced birth and coerced paternity are two sides of the same sex-as-punishment coin. 

There is a lot of truth to that. I personally would never give birth to a baby that was not planned and wanted by both partners. I do agree about the inherent unfairness that the woman gets to choose and the man does not.  However, a child deserves to be supported by both parents once born.
 

I also have to say that this is a very easy thing to say when that has never been a choice you've actually had to make.  Making a decision about abortion is very very difficult.

You assuming that it is a choice I have never had to make.