How would you handle this kind of thing?

[Storm Bride]

DS2 (5.5) is kind of my "problem child". He's taking a disproportionate amount of my time and energy, as well as that of my dh. DH, ds1, dd1 and I are all having trouble keeping our patience with him, and even dd2 is starting to draw back from him a little sometimes. Basically, he doesn't listen well, is very impulsive and is prone to hitting, squeezing too hard (even in affection) and throwing things. He calls himself stupid and an idiot and says he sucks. He's had some serious social problems with other kids in our complex, although that's getting a bit better. I strongly suspect SPD, and am waiting for an evaluation team to get back to me.

So, that's all background. The particular issue I'm having trouble with right now is mess making. I try to get him to clean up as a logical/natural consequence, but it's not always possible. About half an hour ago, he started flicking spoonfuls of soup at his baby sister. I saw him, said "stop" and started to get up to deal with it. He picked up his bowl, and said, "pick up bowl - throw" and looked straight at dd2. I said, "don't" and was already moving toward him, and he turned the bowl upside down on the dining table. It poured all over the table, all over dd2's underside (she was sitting on the table, which is something I'm temporarily allowing, sa she can pull out the chairs and I simply can't stay "on" her enough to keep her off), all over the chair and started dripping on the carpet. I couldn't get ds2 to clean it up, because he's too slow, and by the time he started to make progress on the table, the carpet would have been soaked.

But, I don't know what to do with him! We've been sending him off to calm down when he does these things, but that doesn't really accomplish anything. We're all yelling at him too much, despite repeated attempts to tone it down, because these things he does are just incredibly frustrating. I'm not 100% myself - been coping with horrible PMS (or possibly tubal ligation related hormonal upheaval - not sure which) and am sick right now. DD2 isn't letting me sleep enough. I really honestly don't have enough energy to stay on both him and dd2 the way I need to. We're also in the middle of a fairly major decluttering/reorganizing project around here, which means the house is a little more chaotic than usual (although it's starting to shape up). He's just absolutely draining me. I think he's more work than my toddler right now, which is wildly frustrating for everybody.

I'm really feeling at the end of my rope with him. He's such a sweet little guy in some ways, but he's wearing me out. I have mornings where I'm almost in tears at the thought of getting out of bed and dealing with him all day, and that's not even remotely where I want to be as a parent, yk?

Any thoughts on an effective response to this kind of stuff? (He's also spilled chili powder in the hallway and dumped half a bottle - all that was left - of vanilla extract down the drain, just in the last week...in addition to the usual throwing things, knocking people over, hitting his sisters, etc.) Banishing him doesn't feel right to me. Talking to him accomplishes absolutely nothing. It's like he's just not making the connection between his behaviour and the way people are reacting to him. He says people are always yelling at him - more true than I like to admit - but apparently hasn't figured out that he gets yelled at when he hurts people, throws things, breaks stuff, runs away, etc.

[laohaire]

OK, long shot. I was reading in a book a few weeks ago about a technique to work with impulsive children. From what I understood, the fundamental issue in the cases discussed (and I don't know if it's the case for your DS) is the impulsivity itself, that they have a reaction but fail to foresee the logical consequences.

As an example, the author described a kid who had suffered some minor frustrations on the playground. Then, during a ball game a little later (while he was still a little riled up), something happened (maybe teammate tripped him by accident, something like that). He went ballistic. But he was basically a good kid who overreacted to a situation, rather than being a kid who just likes to hurt people. And he was a visual processor.

So the author of the book sat him down and asked him to use his visual processing to his advantage. First, he pictured in his head a few scenarios that might have led to him being tripped. Without even being led to it, he was able to see that it might have been an accident. Next, he pictured in his head various consequences of hitting the kid. Basically he could see that all the scenarios were not good.

I got the idea that after spending some time practicing picturing things in his head, like a movie, he could then have an impulse, and pause long enough to run some scenarios in his head. Apparently the encouragement to visually process it did everything that verbal lectures ("you shouldn't have done that" "what did you think would happen?") did not.

I think the kid was 8 or 10, I'm not sure if it would be as useful to a 5 year old, or if even the impulsiveness is really the bottom line here, but it's something to think about. Maybe give that a try when talking to him (have him envision various consequences to the thing he did earlier that day, he might even find it fun, which is ok as long as he can then start using it preemptively at some point). And then next time he does something like that, maybe the first thing to do is to say "can you see what's happening? And what's going to happen next?" (Of course with a lot more exasperation, I'm sure, lol).

Other than that... uh, yeah, good luck.

[sublimeliving]

Do you have a chore chart or daily task chart? It's a great way to get kids to want to take care of themselves and be responsible. It also promotes positive reinforcement opposed to negative. From the outside looking in, it seems like he is being destructive to get your attention. Try and spend a whole day ignoring bad behavior and praising good behavior. He might enjoy the chore chart (with things like dusting, making his bed, putting away dishes..) and getting stickers or stars. Just my 2 cents. : )

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by laohaire 

OK, long shot. I was reading in a book a few weeks ago about a technique to work with impulsive children. From what I understood, the fundamental issue in the cases discussed (and I don't know if it's the case for your DS) is the impulsivity itself, that they have a reaction but fail to foresee the logical consequences.

As an example, the author described a kid who had suffered some minor frustrations on the playground. Then, during a ball game a little later (while he was still a little riled up), something happened (maybe teammate tripped him by accident, something like that). He went ballistic. But he was basically a good kid who overreacted to a situation, rather than being a kid who just likes to hurt people. And he was a visual processor.

So the author of the book sat him down and asked him to use his visual processing to his advantage. First, he pictured in his head a few scenarios that might have led to him being tripped. Without even being led to it, he was able to see that it might have been an accident. Next, he pictured in his head various consequences of hitting the kid. Basically he could see that all the scenarios were not good.

I got the idea that after spending some time practicing picturing things in his head, like a movie, he could then have an impulse, and pause long enough to run some scenarios in his head. Apparently the encouragement to visually process it did everything that verbal lectures ("you shouldn't have done that" "what did you think would happen?") did not.

I think the kid was 8 or 10, I'm not sure if it would be as useful to a 5 year old, or if even the impulsiveness is really the bottom line here, but it's something to think about. Maybe give that a try when talking to him (have him envision various consequences to the thing he did earlier that day, he might even find it fun, which is ok as long as he can then start using it preemptively at some point). And then next time he does something like that, maybe the first thing to do is to say "can you see what's happening? And what's going to happen next?" (Of course with a lot more exasperation, I'm sure, lol).

Other than that... uh, yeah, good luck.

Oh - I may try this. I'm not sure that the impulsivity is the root of the problem, but it's definitely a huge contributing factor, at the very least. This might help him a little. I feel so bad for him, because he's obviously not happy, but we can't figure out how to help him.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by sublimeliving 

Do you have a chore chart or daily task chart? It's a great way to get kids to want to take care of themselves and be responsible. It also promotes positive reinforcement opposed to negative. From the outside looking in, it seems like he is being destructive to get your attention. Try and spend a whole day ignoring bad behavior and praising good behavior. He might enjoy the chore chart (with things like dusting, making his bed, putting away dishes..) and getting stickers or stars. Just my 2 cents. : )

We've had multiple days of ignoring the bad (to as great an extent as possible - obviously, we still need to break it up when he's hitting his sister with a book or pouring food down the drain) and praising the good. It doesn't seem to have made any difference at all. A chore chart might be a good idea, though. I'll try one - just have to figure out where to put the thing. *sigh*

I'm starting to hate this house.

[mom2grrls]

Perhaps his mind is feeling the same as yours right now-the clutter of reorganizing may bother him, perhaps he feels your "tenseness" with not getting enough sleep.  I would start with doing what I could to get more sleep and find out what I could do with the hormonal issue.  I would also make sure he's well rested as that makes everything worse too.  He may need some connection right now, some one on one with you or dh to get his cup filled up.  Playful Parenting works well when dealing with messes-making cleaning up a race or related game.

[broodymama]

laohaire, do you know the name of that book? We're having similar issues and I would be interested in reading it.

[Think of Winter]

I have no answers, just sending support.  Kids making unnecessary messes is a real trigger for me, and I've had limited success with getting them to help clean up.  Our house is also turned upside down right now, and it makes me stressed and impatient, then dc reflect that, and it can spiral.  Does your ds like to help with anything?  Can he help you sort out the mess a bit?  It might be good bonding for you to find a task to work on together.  My dd loves to put away dishes and fold laundry.  Ds, for some reason, has decided that swishing and swiping the bathrooms is his job now!  He just turned 7.  This is major progress.

Do you think this could be a temporary phase?  My ds is challenging, and he regularly regresses behaviorally for a few weeks, then the 'bad' behavior disappears again. I suspect it's stress-based, but it's hard to minimize all stress, yk?

[laohaire]

Originally Posted by Red Sonja 

laohaire, do you know the name of that book? We're having similar issues and I would be interested in reading it.

 Yes - unfortunately impulsiveness is not the main topic, but who knows, it might go hand in hand with some other things going on. The book is Right Brained Kids in a Left Brained World. The part that discussed impulsiveness took only a couple of pages, I think.

[chiefmir]

I'm finding the 5 year old stage more challenging with DD1 than I'd expected,too... I thought that 4 was a BREEZE when compared to 3, so I kind of assumed it would keep getting easier and better!  My 5 year old is also the oldest child, and what has  helped her behavior most of all (she is, in generaly, a well-behaved kid, but she has been becoming more difficult and frustrating to us as she grows in indpendence so quickly) is helping find ways to tie responsibilities to privledges.  For example, she is the only one of our kids (the other are just turned 2 and 6 months) who is able to earn an allowance.  She has a list of 4 small things she has always been expected to do (and was already doing when we started allowance 2 months ago) but making a chart to visually show her how she got the privledge of spending money because SHE was the kid who was old enough to have a set of responsibilities around the house.  We told her that she had become old enough to do her part in keeping the home and family running smoothly, so she got a part in some of the benefits of that (i.e. small amount of spending money).  I didn't want to give her a list of chores she had to do to get her $1.25, since I feel like everyone should pitch in... but it seemed to work to highlight the set of things that she was already doing that were helpful.

Also, when she starts to demonstrate a pattern of difficult behavior, I am ALL FOR logical consequences that acutally mean something to her.  There often are not natural consequences that would have the same effect.  For example, she was somewhat defiant to her kindergarten teachers the last two weeks (very unusal for her!) and also hadn't been listening to them well when they gave directions (also new).  So, since she tends to have greater behavioral difficulties when she is tired (as a pp noted) she has to go to bed 20 minutes earlier than usual.  I told her that once she is consistently behaving better in school, I'll know that she has caught up on her sleep, and we can experiment with her later bed time again (which is only 7:15 anyway, since she has to be on the school bus by 7:15 am.)  Also, since she has been defiant to her teachers, who are the adults in charge during the school day, she is temporarily not allowed to have drop-off playdates at a friend's house without one of her own parents there (this is a recent privledge that she's gotten to do a few times and LOVED).  again, our reasoning is that she was demonstrating that, for now, she wasn't able to behave appropriately with the adults in charge at school, so how could we assume that she could do so when another mother was the adult in charge?  These two consequnces acutally had some weight with her-- they were immediately happening (versus the natural consequences... bad marks for behavior on a report card? having a teacher be disappointed? which were too long range and not particularly important to her in the moment).  Don't know if there is any special kind of privledge your DS has or can earn with demonstration of certain self-control and behavior skills?  Later bed time? playdates? a new kind of craft or toy that is only for older/big kids?  a new activity (cooking, karate, a sport, etc) that is specifically for kids who can do certain things (i.e. can't use a knife to cut/cook if can't control impulses). 

Not sure if any of that would work for you- but its been working for us.  Not for nothing, but it really helps me too, in that I feel better that I am "doing something" ...whether that is true or not, I've been yelling less :)

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by mom2grrls 

Perhaps his mind is feeling the same as yours right now-the clutter of reorganizing may bother him, perhaps he feels your "tenseness" with not getting enough sleep.  I would start with doing what I could to get more sleep and find out what I could do with the hormonal issue.  I would also make sure he's well rested as that makes everything worse too.  He may need some connection right now, some one on one with you or dh to get his cup filled up.  Playful Parenting works well when dealing with messes-making cleaning up a race or related game.

I don't think it's the reorganization. He's a bit like I was at a kid, in that respect - not bothered by the clutter at all (ds1 is the same way, but dd1 hates clutter). I try one-on-one with him, but he's not responding well to it right now, and it's especially hard to make it happen with dd2 being so high maintenance right now. I'll make more effort on that front, and see what happens.

I've been doing what I can to get more sleep for weeks. It's not happening. And, I have no idea how to address the hormonal issues.

He's been no problem for the last day and a half, and I miss the chaos - not because I miss the chaos, but because the reason he's been no problem is the 103 fever. It broke this morning, but he's still not feeling good. :(

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Think of Winter 

I have no answers, just sending support.  Kids making unnecessary messes is a real trigger for me, and I've had limited success with getting them to help clean up.  Our house is also turned upside down right now, and it makes me stressed and impatient, then dc reflect that, and it can spiral.  Does your ds like to help with anything?  Can he help you sort out the mess a bit?  It might be good bonding for you to find a task to work on together.  My dd loves to put away dishes and fold laundry.  Ds, for some reason, has decided that swishing and swiping the bathrooms is his job now!  He just turned 7.  This is major progress.

Do you think this could be a temporary phase?  My ds is challenging, and he regularly regresses behaviorally for a few weeks, then the 'bad' behavior disappears again. I suspect it's stress-based, but it's hard to minimize all stress, yk?

Unfortunately, he doesn't really like to help with anything. Once in a blue moon, he'll volunteer to help with something around the house (usually grating cheese, or putting something in a bowl/pan - cooking, not cleaning), but he doesn't stick with it. He wanted to help fold laundry a couple of times, and ended up throwing things around the room. He's really, really not into cleaning at all.

This may be a temporary regression, but it started right around the beginning of December, which I think was related to Christmas), with only about a week at the end of December where he wasn't running wild. DS2 was the easiest baby in the universe, and has been making up for lost time since he was about 21 months old. At least he's not peeing on the carpets, anymore. I hope we can figure out what's going on with him, because he's not very happy as things are, and he often takes more of my time, attention and energy than my other three combined, which isn't fair to anybody.

[One_Girl]

Have you sat him down and asked him why he is behaving the way he is lately?  Pointing out specific examples then asking him why he is doing those things and what his plan is for stopping or what you can do to help him may help.  Even very young kids can tell you a lot about why they are doing off the wall things and come up with ideas for the help they need to change their behavior.  I also read a book that talked about having the child come up with the consequence for really antisocial behavior and then saying in the moment something like "are you choosing to calm down or are you choosing to do x."  I used that with my dd when she was that age and having a very serious tantrum phase and it worked wonders.  She was able to remember our conversation about staying calm and she was able to remember to express herself verbally instead of throwing a serious fit.  The whole goal was to give her more control over her actions, not total control obviously because I would have gone with the consequence we had agreed on but the control to discuss and decide even in the heat of the moment.  I don't remember the book I got it from, maybe Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles by Mary Kurcinka, but it really helped us get through a very tough and exasperating time.

[Storm Bride]

When asked why he does things, the answer is usually (about 95% of the time), "I don't know". When it's something else, it's always "I am/was mad at/I hate X", but if asked why he's mad at or hates X, he says, "I don't know". Much of the time, he doesn't answer at all - either doesn't acknowledge that we're talking to him at all, or gets scowly and folds his arms in front of him, but doesn't talk. We've tried to talk about possible consequences, and he doesn't seem to grasp that there's any need for a consequence, because the issue is that somebody is mad at him/yelled at him/"doesn't like him", not that he did something unacceptable. We've talked about choosing to have a bad time/day or a good one, and he'll say "we're going to have a good day", but then any comprehension of what that means seems to go completely out the window in the moment.

I don't know how to describe ds2, honestly. He's a really neat kid. He just....lives in the "now". He doesn't seem to make the connection between something that happened, and the consequence he had for that, or that so-and-so doesn't want to play with him, because the last three times they played, ds2 hit, or tried to hit, so-and-so with a stick. It's like...in his mind, any given incident is over once it's over, and has no bearing on anything else that's ever happened, or ever will happen. It has its positive sides, as well - he forgives very easily and I don't think he's capable of holding a grudge. But, he just doesn't seem to understand that his behaviour has an impact on people's perceptions of him, and on what happens around him. It's really incredibly frustrating, and I'm finding it really hard to stay patient with him... :(

[DevaMajka]

Have you read Secret of Parenting? It could help, perhaps. I got some useful ideas from it that I love, but ds1 is way different than your ds. Still, it's worth a shot.

I figured out a while ago that when things get too difficult with ds1 (and ds2 now, also), that it means that something has to change. Not just a little change. Something has to fundamentally change. The interactions/discipline just aren't working for you all, even if it had worked in the past. I'm not sure what that means for you, but every time I've come to that place where I think "It is NOT supposed to be this hard" and I truly change it, things get a lot smoother.  I'll try to think of an example...

Do you focus on telling him how his actions affect other people? Like "when you dump your food, it makes more work for me, and it wastes food." Not that it wold necessarilly fix anything, still a good thing to do.

Ok, an example of totally changing things- well, with ds1 when he was 3 I went stright from trying really hard to be CL to using some SOP ideas. The change in both of us was great! With ds2, when I realized that things were more difficult than they should be, I moved towards being more CL, whereas before I was a lot more likely to just pick him up and bring him inside, for example. I had been sort of turned off of CL stuff because of ds1. But it made things a lot easier for both ds2 and me. I'm sure these things will outgrow their usefulness, and I'll have to adjust my parenting/discipline many more times, too.
 

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

(she was sitting on the table, which is something I'm temporarily allowing, sa she can pull out the chairs and I simply can't stay "on" her enough to keep her off),

 I let ds2 on the table too. lol. I realized long ago it would be way to much work to keep him off. Our rule is that he's not allowed on the table if someone is eating (I know that wouldn't help your situation, I just added it just because ).

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by DevaMajka 

Have you read Secret of Parenting? It could help, perhaps. I got some useful ideas from it that I love, but ds1 is way different than your ds. Still, it's worth a shot.

I figured out a while ago that when things get too difficult with ds1 (and ds2 now, also), that it means that something has to change. Not just a little change. Something has to fundamentally change. The interactions/discipline just aren't working for you all, even if it had worked in the past. I'm not sure what that means for you, but every time I've come to that place where I think "It is NOT supposed to be this hard" and I truly change it, things get a lot smoother.  I'll try to think of an example...

Do you focus on telling him how his actions affect other people? Like "when you dump your food, it makes more work for me, and it wastes food." Not that it wold necessarilly fix anything, still a good thing to do.

Ok, an example of totally changing things- well, with ds1 when he was 3 I went stright from trying really hard to be CL to using some SOP ideas. The change in both of us was great! With ds2, when I realized that things were more difficult than they should be, I moved towards being more CL, whereas before I was a lot more likely to just pick him up and bring him inside, for example. I had been sort of turned off of CL stuff because of ds1. But it made things a lot easier for both ds2 and me. I'm sure these things will outgrow their usefulness, and I'll have to adjust my parenting/discipline many more times, too.
 

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

(she was sitting on the table, which is something I'm temporarily allowing, sa she can pull out the chairs and I simply can't stay "on" her enough to keep her off),

 I let ds2 on the table too. lol. I realized long ago it would be way to much work to keep him off. Our rule is that he's not allowed on the table if someone is eating (I know that wouldn't help your situation, I just added it just because ).

I'll try the book, Becky - I'll be at the library on Friday, so I'll see if they have it.

We've tried several different approaches with ds2, and we've definitely tweaked our level of direction several times. Honestly...we had a lot of progress last year, but I think it had more to do with some kind of developmental shift than with anything we were doing. Sometimes, it just seems like we're not even relevant to him, in terms of his behaviour. I've never felt so frustrated, simply because nothing seems to do anything! It sometimes feels as if he's living in a different world than the rest of us. He spent Thursday and Friday on the couch, sick, and as much as I was concerned and felt bad for him...I was honestly almost relieved not to have to be dealing with a ds2-related crisis every 10 minutes. (I do know it's not really every 10 minutes - most days - but it sure feels like it.) He's wearing me out.

[LaLaLaLa]

I'm so sorry that you are feeling so overwhelmed, and I have mostly sympathy with not much advice.  My DS, who turns five on Monday, is similarly impulsive.  We've decided that he has some form of sensory processing disorder, probably something called propioceptic (or propioceptive?) dysfunction.  In short, his brain just doesn't get signals from his body that are as strong as they should be, so he is sensory-seeking.  This translates into: enjoying running into things and people, wanting to be squeezed really hard, pinching himself and others, leaning against people, and being overly touchy-feely.  He is also incredibly impulsive, and will often throw his things at us in anger, even though he knows they will immediately be taken away and put on top of the refrigerator for a day or so.

Whenever he gets in trouble for hitting someone, throwing something, or otherwise lashing out, his response is always "I won't do it anymore!" or "NOW I won't do it!"  He absolutely does not have the self-control to stop himself in the moment, and thinks that as long as he says he's all done with a behavior, that should be the end of it.  We've had no luck in explaining that we don't care about what he's going to do in the future so much as what he JUST did.

It's a constant struggle to stay on top of DS and to intercept him before he does something problematic--to move his older sister away when he's mad so he doesn't lash out at her, to take the toy out of his hand just as he's reaching back to throw it, to grab and squeeze him tightly when he's beginning to seem stressed.  If I had another child who needed as much attention, things would go downhill quickly.

It seems as though occupational therapy helps for some kids who have this version of SPD, and I can see how it would.  DS's issues are under control enough that we haven't sought outside assistance; they are really only annoying to us but aren't affecting him out in the rest of the world, and his self-esteem isn't suffering at the moment.  I'm glad you have an evaluation team; I hope they will have strategies that might allow your little guy to become more focused.  I'm so sorry.  You're not alone.

[savannah smiles]

Your ds sounds a lot like my dd1. She's 9 now and although dx'd w/ ADHD/ODD at 5, her pyschologist recently agreed w/ me that she has a lot of Aspie characteristics esp. in the social skills department.  Like your son, she seems to have a very limited idea of cause and effect in regard to her behavior.  When people get upset by her actions and words, she gets very indignant instead of apologetic.  She doesn't seem to understand how her behavior impacts others nor does she learn from experience.  I can be as clear as possible w/ telling her to stop doing something and why and she still doesn't seem to get it. Sometimes she understands at that moment, but she doesn't seem to carry that knowledge over to future situations.  My dh and I agree that it's like groundhog day every day w/ her, lol!  She really is in her own world most of the time and it's not helpful to her but it seems impossible to get her to really SEE.

So no advice, but loads of empathy.  I hope someone comes along with great advice on how to give a clueless kid a clue. ;)

[One_Girl]

Another book recommendation.  I really loved the book Raising a Thinking Pre-Teen and the author also has a Raising a Thinking Child book out that I think may be a good fit for your son's age.  The author guides you through family games and step by step activities that help kids raise their awareness of how other people might feel and how our actions affect each other.  She also includes real life examples that are helpful and geared towards the age group the book targets.  It has helped me and my dd a lot.

[Storm Bride]

I had a longish reply and I lost it. I just wanted to say that I do suspect SPD, and I have had some suspicions about Aspbergers a few times. DS2 has been very challenging for a long time (after being by far the easiest baby of the four!). I haven't handled a lot of things very well, and he's had a lot of stress in his life (stillborn brother, our pet hedgehog died, and even his baby sister, whom he adores, was a major life change, yk?), but I really think he's got something else going on...just not sure what yet.

And, the "Groundhog Day" thing sounds so, so us. There have just been so many times that I've gone to bed with all these ideas, plans and strategies to make the next day better, happier, more structured, smoother, etc....and they're out the window before I've had coffee, because I'm already in crisis mode!