Limits of playful parenting?

[EzzysMom]

It's been a little while since I read the book so bear with me but I'm wondering how to deal with some of my perceived limits of playful parenting. Here's some concrete examples.

1) brushing teeth, brushing nose is kinda funny and silly, putting brush in the cat litter is not. Everything we do to be silly she seems to try to take to more of an extreme.

2) playing her way with beads and lace. I play with her on the floor, she deems all the blocks are hers after the first time through and I have no blocks to string. I feel like every time I try to play she just excludes me from the game or tells me I'm doing it wrong constantly. I don't feel like our relationship is improving at all as I try to play more her way and I'm being pushed away.

Thanks for your help in my understanding.

[Twinklefae]

She's still really young for a lot of the techniques discussed in the book.

Being silly about routines, like getting dressed and brushing teeth will only work well for some kids.  Other kids really need know where the 'line' is.  Those kids may need a very matter-of-fact routine presentation.  "Okay, lets count your teeth while we brush them.  Nope, toothbrushes are for mouths silly!"  She may 'get the joke' better in a year or so when she understands what 'gross' really means.

At just under three she may not be able to play WITH someone yet, instead needing to play next to them, in what is generally referred to as parallel play.  So starting off by dividing the blocks/beads/whatever into 'yours and mine' removes a hazy concept.  She's still too young to understand that she's hurting your feelings.  But I bet it's fun to have ALL of something.  Alternatively, let her take them all, and 'steal' them back, ending with a tickle/tackle fight.  Lots of fun.

[EzzysMom]

Originally Posted by Twinklefae 

She's still really young for a lot of the techniques discussed in the book.

Being silly about routines, like getting dressed and brushing teeth will only work well for some kids.  Other kids really need know where the 'line' is.  Those kids may need a very matter-of-fact routine presentation.  "Okay, lets count your teeth while we brush them.  Nope, toothbrushes are for mouths silly!"  She may 'get the joke' better in a year or so when she understands what 'gross' really means.

At just under three she may not be able to play WITH someone yet, instead needing to play next to them, in what is generally referred to as parallel play.  So starting off by dividing the blocks/beads/whatever into 'yours and mine' removes a hazy concept.  She's still too young to understand that she's hurting your feelings.  But I bet it's fun to have ALL of something.  Alternatively, let her take them all, and 'steal' them back, ending with a tickle/tackle fight.  Lots of fun.

Ok so just pulling her through the routine, generally the way I do it, but we're still having some trouble.

I'll try the 'stealing' method and trying to engage. But I think she's likely to either not notice or just totally melt down and yell at me for doing what I tell her not to do. She's big into complaining about others taking 'her' things, which has never been an issue before.

[sapphire_chan]

1. Yeah, toothbrushes are for teeth. Period. Silliness on that is limited to things like discussions about finding "tooth buggies" and letting her brush my teeth with my toothbrush. She gets to brush her teeth first and then I do. She also responds really well (for getting started brushing her teeth) if I ask her about her toothbrush, what color is it, what's that picture, look there are letters, etc.

2. Make the not sharing BE the game. "Can I have that blue block? I can? Yay!!! Oh no you took it from me. *huge pout*" Or make it all about her stringing blocks "which block do you want next? green? red? Here you go! I'm helping!"

[LynnS6]

I think it's important to remember that there are a couple of parts to Playful Parenting

The first is easing our way through tasks/discipline by infusing a little play. If I could get through tooth brushing without a major fight by making it playful, great! When they started getting too silly, I dialed it way down and became very matter of fact. They learned pretty quickly what the boundaries are.

Another part of Playful Parenting (and the more important part, IMO), is to spend time each day playing with your child where you child takes the lead. Now, in order for this to really work, your child has to be old enough to actually engage in interactive play. That's a skill that most children start getting around 3, but they're not really very good at it until 4-5. Thus, your dd is a little young for this part yet, though you can certainly lay the groundwork.

In the bead example, it sounds like you each had different agendas. She wanted to string beads, she wanted all of the beads and she didn't care that you didn't have any. That's very age appropriate for 2. They don't yet understand that your feelings might be different from theirs. You can certainly teach that (and the example a pp gave of making sharing the game is a great way). BUT at that moment in time, if you turn it from her stringing the beads to your teaching about sharing, you've stopped following her lead. You've moved from the Playful Parenting for connection to using a playful way to teach sharing. Both can work, but they have different purposes.

Make sure that there are some times each day where you really do follow her lead. When I do this with my kids, the sense of control and connection it gives them is tremendous. They're much more likely to follow my directions, much less whiny and much more able to handle me saying 'no' to other games when I do this. Tonight at ds' basketball practice, I spent 40 minutes outside in the cold watching dd rollerblade, timing her rollerblading a course, running the same course myself and then racing her (me on foot, her on rollerblades -- no, it wasn't fair). Because I didn't have my own agenda, she had a great time and had a very calm evening, even though it was a late one. So, if I had to choose a part of Playful Parenting to implement, it would be the play following your child's lead. I can't always do this, but when I can, I can see the difference it makes to my kids.

[caenach]

I think you got a lot of replies already that are in-line with what I would say.

My DD is a very silly girl and she does like to explore those boundaries between acceptable/not acceptable. So I can totally see her doing something like escalating an "allowable" silliness into something that is really not acceptable. I though sapphire-chan's advice seemed good --to keep her interested/distracted by questions, add a little more control to scenarios where certain things must be accomplished, and not always open up the silliness door.

In my case, though, I think sometimes I don't REALLY engage playfully in these scenarios, and DD can tell. I want DD to brush her teeth. She doesn't want to. I invent some game for the purpose of getting her to do what I want and then I get frustrated when she takes it to an extreme. Because what I really want is brushed teeth. What she wants is to play, and she's willing to brush some teeth along the way.

For me, it sometimes helps to actually go a little nuts. Not allowing her to dip the toothbrush in the toilet. But. You know. Maybe she could brush the disgusting, green, mossy teeth of an imaginary unicorn named Dave. Maybe getting a little more into it and pushing things to a higher level of fancy/outrageousness will fulfill her need somewhat. Or keeping it an "I wish" or "I imagine" level instead of actually doing things that will then escalate to inappropriate behavior.

About not playing cooperatively--while I agree that there are opportunities to teach sharing in situations like this, I also think that one of the ideas expressed in Playful Parenting is that we, as parents, aren't always tuned-in to the underlying agenda of a particular style of play. For instance, maybe your daughter likes to control the play, leaving you to basically do nothing but watch/interact with her, to put you in the position of petitioner and her in the position of decision-maker (no, you may not have any more beads) because that isn't what life is usually like for a 2-year old. Have you tried thinking up games that put her even more in a position of decision-making/leadership to see if that alleviates any of the behavior? I think our DDs are close to the same age and DD just started to understand follow-the-leader games. She also loves to pretend to do things that we do every-day, with herself in the role of decision maker...so we "cook" and she tells me which spoon to get, which bowl, which ingredient. She completely assumes control of both her role and my role, and I think that helps somewhat.

DD's favorite, all time, all day long activity is role-playing with animals/dolls/salt shakers/ketchup bottles, what have you, so another thing I might do is seize an opportunity to model the situation. One stuffed squirrel refusing to let the other stuff squirrel string beads. And then let her talk to me about how the squirrels feel. Ways that they could both string beads together. Etc.

[kittykat2481]

When DS doesnt want to brush his teeth we play dentist.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

In the bead example, it sounds like you each had different agendas. She wanted to string beads, she wanted all of the beads and she didn't care that you didn't have any. That's very age appropriate for 2. They don't yet understand that your feelings might be different from theirs. You can certainly teach that (and the example a pp gave of making sharing the game is a great way). BUT at that moment in time, if you turn it from her stringing the beads to your teaching about sharing, you've stopped following her lead. You've moved from the Playful Parenting for connection to using a playful way to teach sharing. Both can work, but they have different purposes.

=D Actually I said "make the NOT sharing BE the game". Don't make (or try to) her share, don't get caught up in that dynamic, just take what she's doing and follow along.

An example: My dd thinks it's hilarious when I get extra pouty about her not sharing. "Oh no!! Woe is me! I have no blocks. I cannot build a tower. Can I have a block, pleeeeaaase??? I can? Yay!!" big dramatic reaching for a block, she snatches it away from me (giggle, giggle, giggle), "Oh no!! the block went away! Where did my block go? Can I have another one?" (giggle, giggle) she picks up a block and reaches it towards me, I go for it, she moves it just out of reach "I'm going to get a block! I will, I will! Eeek I can't  get it!.... Do you want a blue block or a red block next?" And she chooses one and I get the block for her.

Whereas the rule when she's playing with other kids is that everyone gets to play. So everyone can have a train at the train table, we find another toy to play with if one is being used, you do this while he does that. At 2.5 years old it's very very very structured.

[EzzysMom]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan 

=D Actually I said "make the NOT sharing BE the game". Don't make (or try to) her share, don't get caught up in that dynamic, just take what she's doing and follow along.

An example: My dd thinks it's hilarious when I get extra pouty about her not sharing. "Oh no!! Woe is me! I have no blocks. I cannot build a tower. Can I have a block, pleeeeaaase??? I can? Yay!!" big dramatic reaching for a block, she snatches it away from me (giggle, giggle, giggle), "Oh no!! the block went away! Where did my block go? Can I have another one?" (giggle, giggle) she picks up a block and reaches it towards me, I go for it, she moves it just out of reach "I'm going to get a block! I will, I will! Eeek I can't  get it!.... Do you want a blue block or a red block next?" And she chooses one and I get the block for her.

Whereas the rule when she's playing with other kids is that everyone gets to play. So everyone can have a train at the train table, we find another toy to play with if one is being used, you do this while he does that. At 2.5 years old it's very very very structured.

So I've tried joking around like 'the potty is mine! all mine!' to sound like her, and she just bursts into tears. I'm not sure she gets the idea of joking yet enough maybe, that I feel like if I just let it go that she's going 'mine mine mine' she might get confused as to why sometimes I insist she share and sometimes I just let her do things like that? maybe she's too young? I don't want to be confusing her, she's a very 'rule' based child, always wants to know the rules.

[Llyra]

It really sounds like she's maybe too young for some of these tactics. In a year or two, she'll "get" the humor in you saying that it's all yours. For now, she really thinks you mean it. My DD1 is like that-- very rule-oriented. She likes to know exactly what to do and how, and she's not so flexible about bending the rules or being silly about things she's decided are "very serious." With her, I found it better in a lot of situations to play the "wise grown up," and treat things like toothbrushing as "deadly serious jobs." She'd be impressed by my seriousness, and take it very seriously herself, and thus the job would get done with a minimum of fuss.

1. With the toothbrush-- we had good luck with brushing the teeth of all the stuffed animals and dolls. I took it very seriously, and talked a lot about how dirty their teeth are and how badly they needed cleaning. Even now, my kids are older, and I still brush DS's blanket's "teeth" every single day. (He's four.)

2. Playing cooperatively comes with time. For now, it might be better to just let her do her thing. Our favorite way to play at that age, actually, was for me to sit on the floor near the child's play, but to busy myself with some adult task-- folding laundry is good, or reading a magazine, or knitting, or making a grocery list-- and I would join in only when I was asked to join. It let them feel I was nearby and available and interested, but it gave them the control over what they were doing.

[meemee]

i have not read the book so i dont know specifically what the book says. 

however playful parenting has been my main philosophy mainly coz i enjoy it AND dd really responds to it. 

HOWEVER.... her bf just does not enjoy it. he is a homebody, rules kinda guy. yes your dd is young but you will see her become more strict adn this will peak around 4 when dd's bf was at his worst where playdates were horrible coz he would lose it since she didnt play by his rules.

what his mom told me works is to just tell him teh reason. talk rationally and with reason. at 2 the only reason why he'd stay in the car seat was because it was the law and the driver would get a ticket. while pantomime worked on dd, it scared her friend away. of course today at 8 he's a wizz at making up knock knock jokes - but he still doesnt get silly humor though he's had his fart and pee jokes.

from what you write and the things that concern you - be very careful. address what your dd needs and wants, instead of this idea that society builds around what children should be doing. not saying this is waht you are doing but dont look at her as an empty vessel who needs guidance. read some fo the Louise Ames Bates books. i love her series. "your X year old" goes upto age 12 i think. it goes over what our children are going thru. they were my bible at a young age when parenting wasnt that intuitive for me. all i needed to understand waht was reasonable expectation and why dd was behaving the way she was. of course she was also a high needs child so it was a whole different challenge right there. which is why pp worked so well for us. 

also take into account ur dd's personality. 

dd is stubborn as a mule. plus i also think she had sensitive gum. so no matter what i tried, brushing teeth was NEVER EVER done happily. no matter what i tried. so on bad days we didnt brush our teeth. by about 6 she became far more regular about brushing her teeth. and oh yes. we never used children's toothpaste. i just dont get it. why make it in the flavour they like to eat?!

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by EzzysMom 

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan 

=D Actually I said "make the NOT sharing BE the game". Don't make (or try to) her share, don't get caught up in that dynamic, just take what she's doing and follow along.

An example: My dd thinks it's hilarious when I get extra pouty about her not sharing. "Oh no!! Woe is me! I have no blocks. I cannot build a tower. Can I have a block, pleeeeaaase??? I can? Yay!!" big dramatic reaching for a block, she snatches it away from me (giggle, giggle, giggle), "Oh no!! the block went away! Where did my block go? Can I have another one?" (giggle, giggle) she picks up a block and reaches it towards me, I go for it, she moves it just out of reach "I'm going to get a block! I will, I will! Eeek I can't  get it!.... Do you want a blue block or a red block next?" And she chooses one and I get the block for her.

Whereas the rule when she's playing with other kids is that everyone gets to play. So everyone can have a train at the train table, we find another toy to play with if one is being used, you do this while he does that. At 2.5 years old it's very very very structured.

So I've tried joking around like 'the potty is mine! all mine!' to sound like her, and she just bursts into tears. I'm not sure she gets the idea of joking yet enough maybe, that I feel like if I just let it go that she's going 'mine mine mine' she might get confused as to why sometimes I insist she share and sometimes I just let her do things like that? maybe she's too young? I don't want to be confusing her, she's a very 'rule' based child, always wants to know the rules.

Well, we were playing like that when my dd was 2, the overall rule is that she makes most of the rules for playing with me and I make the rules for her playing with other people (she and dh take turns making rules about playing with each other).

It could be that you've tried at the wrong time of day for your dd. I've tried to initiate the exact same game I described above when dd was tired and she threw the blocks across the room, I've also had her scream at me that they are her blocks. At home, I just back off, out and about where other kids can be affected, I pick her up (screaming kicking and all) and leave the situation.

My dd can't handle imitations unless she's in a very good, very playful mood. If she's not in a terrific mood imitating her results in her yelling at me not to and even pushing me away or putting a hand over my mouth. So really imitations, for us, are more for things like making silly faces or sounds not for "it's mine!" sorts of behavior.

2 is definitely too young to realize that Mommy is trying to show how her behavior looks to others. A lot of (most?) 5 year olds wouldn't get that concept for that matter. Some play like that can be good, but it would go more like this:

DD takes all the beads "BEADS mine!!"

Mom, "the beads are all yours? Then the blocks are mine!" (very short time picking up blocks and doings something) "Do you want to play with the blocks too? There are enough blocks for both of us."

Sometimes, the kid'll take all of the blocks as well. Sometimes, the kid'll just keep playing with the beads. Sometimes, the kid'll take a couple of blocks to play with. Sometimes, the kid'll take the blocks and hand over the beads. But sometimes, the kid will take a couple of blocks and offer mom a couple of beads. And no matter which thing happens, the next time the kid is playing with beads or blocks or toy cars, they might just spontaneously imitate what Mom modeled and offer some to the other person.

[EzzysMom]

Thank you all for your thoughts, I've been trying to integrate them into our play. This morning I got around the mommy is imitating thing this morning by following her lead and she wanted me to use a 'mommy' puppet. And I had the puppet act really badly about the blocks, very selfish and whiny, and she got to lecture the puppet on sharing. I think she liked it. I think it helped to take away the dynamic of her and me (as ourselves) interacting. Then we played nicely together a doctor game and she didn't push me away and exclude me.

Thanks for helping this all too serious, all about the rules, mommy try to relax for some connecting playtime.

She does already get frustrated with her friends at times because they don't play by her rules... but she's had some good moments of negotiating things with them too lately, so in that department I think she's doing well. I just wanted more connecting time for the two of us which has been hard to come by lately.

[journeymom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kittykat2481 

When DS doesnt want to brush his teeth we play dentist.

Ds is 11 y.o. and still needs to be reminded to brush sometimes.  He's only just now feeling the benefits of having clean teeth (it feels better!).  I tell him if he goes around with icky teeth and bad breath he'll never get a girl.   I tell him if he doesn't brush his teeth eventually they'll rot out of his head and fall out, one by one (plink! plink! plink!) and he'll have to share Geat Grandma's dentures. 

[Think of Winter]

2) playing her way with beads and lace. I play with her on the floor, she deems all the blocks are hers after the first time through and I have no blocks to string. I feel like every time I try to play she just excludes me from the game or tells me I'm doing it wrong constantly. I don't feel like our relationship is improving at all as I try to play more her way and I'm being pushed away.

Thanks for your help in my understanding.

Hi there:)

I'm sure you know this, but I wanted to remind you that this is an age thing.  Both my dc went through periods when every little thing (randomly) had to be done a particular way, a way that they couldn't even articulate enough for me to try to do it right.  It is crazy-making.  I'm never sure when a stage like that is over that I did anything to change it's course at all!  They do outgrow it.  I think if I can be kind, be a good role model, and stay true to our parenting objectives, then that's sometimes enough.

Your update was great.  Good for you.  I really struggle with these behaviors, too, and I love to hear success stories.