when does CIO stop being CIO and start being "dealing with a toddler?"

[tzs]

i think there's no absolute right answer to this but it's been something i've been thinking about and wanted to get some other mama viewpoints.

so we have one end of the spectrum where i wouldn't consider sleep training a tiny baby or letting them cry alone. and then we have the other end where if i had a 5 year-old that was screaming for a glass of water i wouldn't necessarily come running. what i'm wondering about is this period in-between....when does CIO stop being CIO?

my babe is 16 months old which i realize in the grand scheme of things is still very very young and she is still very much a "baby." on the flip side however, unlike a small baby, she has a consciousness of what she's doing, cause and effect, and what sort of reaction she will get. 

at nighttime she has a bottle to go to sleep and she is a pretty good sleeper. she does, however, still wake up once during the night at some point in the early morning, wanting a bottle. i'd like to get rid of this bottle because it really is just out of habit and not out of hunger. and there are definately signs that we're being "used and abused" by our darling daughter. she can be crying and screaming but the minute you open the door she kind of snuggles back on her tummy and waits for the bottle, sometimes if you're lucky you even get a little arm reaching out from under the covers handing you the empty bottle (not even making eye contact....it's actually pretty cute) and if you're really really lucky the same arm will hand you the bottle with liquid still in it! she just wants a refill and warm-up! 

anyway, that's the scenario. any sort of contact without a fresh bottle refill will only get you screaming fury that stops the second the bottle arrives. (also, if the bottle isn't warm enough you might also get the same reaction....this is a new thing....she seems to be getting pickier/more demanding.) i've always just gone along with it because it was easy, it works, and i got up early in the morning to go to work. but it's starting to get ridiculous, i no longer WOH, and i'm pregnant with #2. 

i'm sure there are other similar toddler-tantrum situations that people deal with at night. so when does CIO stop being CIO and start being "ignoring an irrationally demanding toddler?"

(to add...dh thinks that additional mounting daytime demanding toddler behavior can be traced back to the fact that we come running to cater to her whims at night) 

[belltree]

I don't think a 16 month old is capable of using and abusing her parents. She has needs and preferences, and in her young toddler world, these can be pretty intense and overwhelming. Other things are games, where they test and experience how to world works, they see - this is what I do, this is what happens, without much intent to hurt or abuse you. That's an emotional level such a young child cannot reach yet. IMO, CIO starts when you leave your child alone, without comfort, without love, turning their back on them.

That said, I believe you should aim to teach her how to ask for her bottle nicely instead of screaming for it. It is probably just a habit, maybe an annoying habit to you (although part of you seems to like it, when you call her cute). We all have bad or annoying habits that are difficult to part with. I don't think you will teach her anything but how to surrender when you let her CIO. Maybe you can find an alternative, maybe she needs some early morning attention, or some cuddles that you can try to replace the bottle with.

PS: I'd be very happy when my now 15 month old only wakes up twice per night when he's your dd's age.

[tzs]

sorry, i didn't really mean "using and abusing" literally. i have kind of a dry sense of humor that doesn't really work over the interweb. anyway...carry on....

keep the thought's coming! need to get some perspective here.

[elizaMM]

I agree with belltree. The only time I ignore my crying toddler is when paying attention to him makes him MORE upset.

And likely the "additional mounting daytime demanding toddler behavior" is just additional mounting toddlerhood.

[madskye]

I think you have to listen to your inner voice and if you really feel she's well-fed and truly doesn't need you...then maybe you give her a few minutes and see if she falls back asleep.  I don't see the point in letting a baby cry though--it seems to me that they're always trying to tell you something.  Maybe she's trying to tell you it's time for a new bedtime routine.

I think I'd recommend changing things up a bit though, and not put her to bed with a bottle anymore.  Maybe start a new routine where you sit with her with the bottle and then it goes away.  Maybe she's calling you because it's done/cold and she thinks that's what she's supposed to do--since that's what she's always done, you know?  Are you binky-averse? (Some people are.)  Paci's never get cold or empty and if she's not really drinking the bottle most nights anyway, what's the point of a bottle? 

[Katielady]

I struggled with the same question when my first was around that age, maybe a little older. I tried CIO one night out of desperation. I went in after a few minutes to find him standing in the middle of the room sobbing, saying "I want to talk to you in a nice voice, I want to talk to you in a nice voice!" We'd been talking about "nice voices" lately and I guess he thought I left him in there because I thought he wasn't speaking nicely enough to me. :(

We found other ways. I had a lot of success with "weaning" him from some of our nighttime habits, starting with bottles. Later when he was around 2, I started sitting next to him at night while he was falling asleep instead of lying next to him, which eventually got him sleeping through the night.

A toddler's needs are different from those of a baby. But you still need to meet their needs. Your heart will lead the way.

[t2009]

I agree with most of what PPs have said. We also went through a short period of this at around the same age. DS would keep "calling" us back into his room by whining or crying. After a while I started to think, OK, he doesn't need anything thing... he's just playing with us so maybe we should give him a few minutes... But a part of me also told me that we should just go to him, even when it started to seem ridiculous (as in, the door starting to creak open would stop the crying).

But even if he was "playing" I think ultimately it was a really important developmental moment for him, and in retrospect (if not in the moment) I'm glad we always went to him. Figuring out how to control the few things a toddler can control is just part of their development. And frankly, for them I think it's most obvious at night, and also relatively short-lived -- They figure it out & move on to other games.

Now, that doesn't mean that we always gave him what he wanted when he called us in. It's OK to set reasonable boundaries. 

[APToddlerMama]

She's not manipulating you.  She snuggles back on her tummy and stops screaming because she knows that you have heard her and you're there to provide for her needs.  I would keep doing what you are doing for a while.  If anything, I would start putting water in her bottle so she gets used to not being fed in the middle of the night.  That seemed to do the trick with my son around that age. 

[Chloe'sMama]

DD is 32 months and still wakes up to have comfort from us.  I think she doesn't like to wake up alone, and we still respond quickly to her.  They need us and get comfort from being around us.

That being said, we still co-sleep and I nurse her to sleep, so different situation.

[tzs]

these are great observations. 

i have just today switched to water all the time in the hopes that it won't be so alluring and as soon as i can get her room painted and everything settled i want to move her to a floor bed which could mean different bedtime routine, maybe including more snuggles and cuddles (but she's usually more of an independent sleeper.) 

i would love to do a paci but she rejected it around 9 months. it was tough because she still needed something (i called it "premature nuk rejection syndrome") which is how the bottle started. 

for now i'm always going in but when i leave without bottle drop-off it's meltdown. going back in just restarts the whole process and i feel prolongs it. 

but i'm sure we'll find a way. 

any thoughts on what age/stage you would call it too demanding? (for what it's worth i remember yelling at my own mother for drinks of water in the middle of the night, waaaay after i could do it on my own....and it couldn't be "bathroom water" had to be from the kitchen. and if i can remember that, i had to be pretty darn old. maybe it's karma!)

[cyclamen]

Since I nightweaned DD a few months ago, when she wakes up she either gets daddy snuggles or rocks with me in the rocker.  This is a rare occurance, but probably once a week she does wake up.  16 months was tough though.  However, now that she is more verbal (19mo), we talk about closing our eyes and waiting for sleep to come.  I also tell her, "We are going to rock in the rocker while I sing one song.  Then we are going back to bed."  And we do, and she snuggles right in and falls asleep.  But we had to stop putting her to bed with nursing before this would work.  She now nurses in bed, then we do stories, and then she goes to sleep.  So I second those who are saying you might have to stop putting her to bed with a bottle.

[cyclamen]

Hmm, if she gets a floor bed, can you move to replace the bottle with a cup of water she can get out of bed and get herself?  That is what we do now.  DD never goes to get it, but she loves knowing it's there.

[earthworm]

It seems like it's mostly the bottle thing that's bothering you (right?), so I would just focus on weaning her from that without the whole CIO thing. Like anything like that, the transition can be really tough but it hopefully won't seem like that huge of a deal a few months later. That's how it was when I night-weaned my oldest. I thought it was going to be impossible or involve CIO but it wasn't so bad.

My almost 4 year old still wakes up crying at night so I do get what you mean (especially when I read about a teeeny tiny lil 16 mo that just wakes up once or twice!! :P). Part of me is like "SERIOUSLY?! Aren't you, like, an adult by now?! Put yourself back to sleep! And get a job already!" We still go in there pretty quickly because I know he just gets really scared/lonely. He is the exact same during the day; I just feel less of a need for him to be in a separate room then so it never seems like a huge deal. I really think the age thing depends on the kid and the circumstances. I still don't know that I could ever just completely ignore my kid while he was crying for me, no matter for how ridiculous of a reason. When they're older, solutions can be talked about during the daytime and hopefully implemented at night without it getting to that point hopefully. I am really thinking positively about my future here, haha.

I take so long to write things that I just read your most recent post (unless you post something else by the time I post this!). My husband and I had different experiences as kids. We both remember being terrified and lonely at night but "knowing better" than to call for our parents. His parents did the whole CIO thing, while my mom swears that I just always slept through the night, possibly because she has magical powers or something. I don't know. I just remember being too scared to call for them or go to them. I had horrible nightmares, sleep paralysis, and all that as a kid and I always wished I could ask for comfort and know that I would get it during the night so I guess that colors my view a bit!

[just_lily]

My DD is a paci kid, and I had to go into her room at least once a night to find it for her until she was 18 months old.  Even now, at 2.5yo she won't be able to find it every once in a while and will call for me. 

I think that if the bottle is causing the issues, then deal with the bottle.  It doesn't mean you have to leave her to cry!  I think switching to water is a good first step - falling asleep with a milk bottle can cause lots of dental issues. 

At 2.5yo there are some times when my daughter will cry before bed.  Usually it is when she is overtired and doesn't want to settle down.  She has totally figured out how to stall and will go though this whole "I want Daddy, no I want Mommy, I want a drink, I want my blankets, no I don't want my blankets, no don't kiss me, I want a kiss!!!!" song and dance.  Usually when she gets into this pattern I tell her "Ok, but it is nightime and time to go to sleep.  Mommy is leaving now.  I love you, good night."

Then I leave the room and she usually screams her head off.  But it is a toddler-not-getting-what-they-want cry, and not a baby-is-scared-and-doesn't-know-where-mommy-went cry.  I will wait outside her door for a very short period - I don't know, maybe 30 seconds if that? - and then go back in.  It is just long enough for her to realize that Mommy is serious, and if she wants hugs and kisses and to get tucked in she needs to stop messing around.  Is that CIO?  I don't think so.  I never ever left her to cry as an infant. 

[CassnBeth]

I know lots of people here are totally okay with kids this age still nursing/having bottles at night but I wasn't so keen on my DD waking up for bottles at this age when she wasn't hungry. I felt like, if she wasn't hungry or needing comfort, then she should be sleeping; it would be better for all of us. And DD had gotten into this thing where she woke up crying at five am. just to have someone come in and give her a bottle with three ounces of breastmilk. Most of the time she didn't finish this bottle and was totally oblivious to whoever went in so I didn't think she was in it for the snuggles (DD has never been all that interested in human contact at night; just milk followed by our IMMEDIATE DEPARTURE).

So I started reducing the amount in her bottles; half an ounce at a time. I would take a few days or so at each new amount of milk and we got down to....maybe half an ounce? When she started sleeping through that wakeup occasionally. Over the next two weeks, she just stopped waking up then completely. She held on to an 11pm. feed a month or so longer but she was teething and often needed motrin then anyway.

If this hadn't worked I probably would have kept trying different tricks rather than letting her cry. Early in the morning she would have just cried until she woke up and then we would all have been awake at 5am. And I felt like it was unfair to just not show up one day because I couldn't explain to her what she was supposed to do. It would have been perfectly reasonable for her to just cry louder in case we hadn't heard her; she would have no idea that she was supposed to go back to sleep.

[tzs]

Originally Posted by CassnBeth 

I know lots of people here are totally okay with kids this age still nursing/having bottles at night but I wasn't so keen on my DD waking up for bottles at this age when she wasn't hungry. I felt like, if she wasn't hungry or needing comfort, then she should be sleeping; it would be better for all of us. And DD had gotten into this thing where she woke up crying at five am. just to have someone come in and give her a bottle with three ounces of breastmilk. Most of the time she didn't finish this bottle and was totally oblivious to whoever went in so I didn't think she was in it for the snuggles (DD has never been all that interested in human contact at night; just milk followed by our IMMEDIATE DEPARTURE).

So I started reducing the amount in her bottles; half an ounce at a time. I would take a few days or so at each new amount of milk and we got down to....maybe half an ounce? When she started sleeping through that wakeup occasionally. Over the next two weeks, she just stopped waking up then completely. 

this is dd completely! same time, same M.O., also doesn't care about the human that has delivered her room service. 

i like this strategy!

[cyanviolet]

I'm a few months ahead of you in age, but I have a boy who was never a good sleeper. We consider it a success that he wakes up only 1 or 2 times a night at 19 months and doesn't have to fall asleep with a nipple in his mouth. Anyway, the thing I've realized is that you can try something and it may not work and you feel awful and then 2 or 3 months later it's totally fine with them and you. And it seems to depend on the little person and their own personal developmental timeline.

My guy was waking up to bf probably 2 or 3 times a night and around the time he turned 1, I was constantly trying to offer something (snuggles, singing, holding, etc) which was met with outrage so I didn't push it for the last 7 months but kept revisiting. I was putting him to sleep on a bed, transferring him to a crib and then bringing him to our bed after his first wakeup (which varied from 11 to 1). We both work, so sleeping alone in our bed is less of a priority then just getting some sleep. In the last month we discovered if we just let him fall asleep in our bed and then join him later he doesn't wake up until after 3 am (which was huge for us). Then in the last week or two he's gone along with not nursing until 5 am (with plenty of grumbling around 3 am or so but no outrage or sobbing). Last night when I told him the "apples" were asleep, before I could offer an alternative he asked for "hold you" which is what he calls being held and then fell back asleep for a couple of hours.

I know we have really different situations (my success is your baseline you're trying to change) but I guess my point is that if you're not sure about something, it's ok to not be able to predict the future and just try it with a flexible mind. If they're not ready, you will know. And they will probably be ready in a month or two or three. Oh, and never compare to anyone else (at least for me, because then I get depressed about our difficult nights instead of enjoying what I have).

[Anna's Lovey]

well, you'll know the answer to your question when baby number two arrives, that's for sure!  

I've wondered the exact same thing, and I've reached mommy burnout trying to take care of a newborn and a demanding toddler. I've had to reavaluate my role as a mother.  Is it my role to make sure my kids are happy all the time?  Or is it more important to make sure I'm relaxed and replenished and able to see to the *needs* of my children?  Once, number two is born, life becomes more about seeing to the needs of your children and less about giving into their desires.  

I think it's important to examine your motives in each situation and make sure that you're not doing something that is causing you to feel resentful, and possibly setting your eldest up for a big disapointment when baby is born and you simply cannot meet all her demands.  

Best of luck to you. my lo is kind of like yours in the sense that she wants what she wants the way she wants it and will make a big fuss if things don't go her way.  I 'm like you too in that I kind of enjoy catering to her whims sometimes because she's so darn cute and charming.  But at some point, after my baby was born I just started to feel really overwhelmed and resentful, angry quite frankly.  Tune into your own emotions as you respond to your daughter, if it doesn't feel right, then you might be ignoring your own needs and catering too much to her wants.

Hope that helps. 

[not_telling]

Originally Posted by just_lily 

My DD is a paci kid, and I had to go into her room at least once a night to find it for her until she was 18 months old.  Even now, at 2.5yo she won't be able to find it every once in a while and will call for me. 

I think that if the bottle is causing the issues, then deal with the bottle.  It doesn't mean you have to leave her to cry!  I think switching to water is a good first step - falling asleep with a milk bottle can cause lots of dental issues. 

At 2.5yo there are some times when my daughter will cry before bed.  Usually it is when she is overtired and doesn't want to settle down.  She has totally figured out how to stall and will go though this whole "I want Daddy, no I want Mommy, I want a drink, I want my blankets, no I don't want my blankets, no don't kiss me, I want a kiss!!!!" song and dance.  Usually when she gets into this pattern I tell her "Ok, but it is nightime and time to go to sleep.  Mommy is leaving now.  I love you, good night."

Then I leave the room and she usually screams her head off.  But it is a toddler-not-getting-what-they-want cry, and not a baby-is-scared-and-doesn't-know-where-mommy-went cry.  I will wait outside her door for a very short period - I don't know, maybe 30 seconds if that? - and then go back in.  It is just long enough for her to realize that Mommy is serious, and if she wants hugs and kisses and to get tucked in she needs to stop messing around.  Is that CIO?  I don't think so.  I never ever left her to cry as an infant. 

This is where we are, too, with our 2.5 year old (and have been for a couple months...although I should note he's only been sleeping in his own room for a little over 5 months).  On a super terrific night he goes to bed easily and we don't hear from him till morning.  On a good night he wakes once and one of us will go in and give him a sip of water from his cup on the bookshelf and then sit by his crib and hold his hand for a little bit and then go back to bed.  And then there's the bad nights....which sometimes just means that he wakes multiple times but doesn't need more than a sip of water or a short backrub or some hand holding...or it might mean a full out tantrum for reasons we can't deduce (especially in our sleepy-middle-of-the-night state).

[Agatha_Ann]

Originally Posted by Anna's Lovey 

well, you'll know the answer to your question when baby number two arrives, that's for sure!  

I've wondered the exact same thing, and I've reached mommy burnout trying to take care of a newborn and a demanding toddler. I've had to reavaluate my role as a mother.  Is it my role to make sure my kids are happy all the time?  Or is it more important to make sure I'm relaxed and replenished and able to see to the *needs* of my children?  Once, number two is born, life becomes more about seeing to the needs of your children and less about giving into their desires.  

I think it's important to examine your motives in each situation and make sure that you're not doing something that is causing you to feel resentful, and possibly setting your eldest up for a big disapointment when baby is born and you simply cannot meet all her demands.  

Best of luck to you. my lo is kind of like yours in the sense that she wants what she wants the way she wants it and will make a big fuss if things don't go her way.  I 'm like you too in that I kind of enjoy catering to her whims sometimes because she's so darn cute and charming.  But at some point, after my baby was born I just started to feel really overwhelmed and resentful, angry quite frankly.  Tune into your own emotions as you respond to your daughter, if it doesn't feel right, then you might be ignoring your own needs and catering too much to her wants.

Hope that helps. 

 This is how I feel too. I guess I just need a lot of sleep because there is no way I could still be getting up with a 2, 3, 4 year old at night and still feel like I was the mother I want to be during the day. Especially to my other children who need me. I'm all for nighttime parenting, but I think setting limits is part of being a parent. In my opinion, the difference between this and CIO is that an infant has no concept of wants...everything is needs. You know your daughter better than anyone else, I would trust your instincts on what she needs. I also think there is a lot of gray (and gentle) areas between not tending to your child ifs ands or buts for 12 hours and waking up multiple times a night with a otherwise healthy preschooler.