when does CIO stop being CIO and start being "dealing with a toddler?" - Page 2

[Agatha_Ann]

Originally Posted by just_lily 

My DD is a paci kid, and I had to go into her room at least once a night to find it for her until she was 18 months old.  Even now, at 2.5yo she won't be able to find it every once in a while and will call for me. 

I think that if the bottle is causing the issues, then deal with the bottle.  It doesn't mean you have to leave her to cry!  I think switching to water is a good first step - falling asleep with a milk bottle can cause lots of dental issues. 

At 2.5yo there are some times when my daughter will cry before bed.  Usually it is when she is overtired and doesn't want to settle down.  She has totally figured out how to stall and will go though this whole "I want Daddy, no I want Mommy, I want a drink, I want my blankets, no I don't want my blankets, no don't kiss me, I want a kiss!!!!" song and dance.  Usually when she gets into this pattern I tell her "Ok, but it is nightime and time to go to sleep.  Mommy is leaving now.  I love you, good night."

Then I leave the room and she usually screams her head off.  But it is a toddler-not-getting-what-they-want cry, and not a baby-is-scared-and-doesn't-know-where-mommy-went cry.  I will wait outside her door for a very short period - I don't know, maybe 30 seconds if that? - and then go back in.  It is just long enough for her to realize that Mommy is serious, and if she wants hugs and kisses and to get tucked in she needs to stop messing around.  Is that CIO?  I don't think so.  I never ever left her to cry as an infant. 

My 2 yr old screams bloody murder all the way up the stairs at naptime and then snuggles with his stuffed animals and gives kisses when I lay him down at bedtime, at nap he's happy up the stairs and screams from the time I lay him in bed till when I close his door. I don't think either of those is CIO, but I'm sure some people would disagree.

[JudiAU]

I think it is entirely reasonable for a 16 month to be thirsty and need nutrition whether nursing or through a bottle. That is a young baby, barely a toddler at all. Closer to 2, however, when I don't think nightime nutrition is as key, we use the No Cry Sleep Solution to get our kids into habits of going to sleep with pats/hand holding i.e. not so active on my parent. DH also steps around then for nightime parenting if the child wakes up. (This sort of assumes that I am pregnant or have an infant which was and is the plan.) He responds to everything from 2+ while I've got the baby and when I get pregnant again, at around the same time, we'll probably do the same thing.

I don't think a young child ever manipulates their parent. Honestly, I think that is absurd. We have babies, they have needs that they express in the only way they can express it. "I don't want my kid to manipulate me" almost always seems to be the first step when I hear someone advocate or defend harsh parenting. CIO at 16m is very much CIO.

[DevaMajka]

I think there's a balance that doesn't have much to do with age. It has to do with how important that interaction is to dc, and how convenient or inconvenient it is for you. For example, ds1 *needed* to nurse at night WELL past 2. It was really important to him- and that outweighed how much it sucked for me. Even at 3, nightweaning caused a lot of crying, but by then I felt like his need for it decreased, and my need for sleep (and not to be touched out) was a higher priority.

Ds2, I'm fairly certain nightweaning him right now, at 19mos, would cause very little unhappiness on his part. (I don't try it because I think he'd just wake up and be awake for 2 hours every time). But on decent nights with him, I've been getting a 5-6 hour stretch, so it's not too bad for me.

Originally Posted by tzs 

(for what it's worth i remember yelling at my own mother for drinks of water in the middle of the night, waaaay after i could do it on my own....and it couldn't be "bathroom water" had to be from the kitchen. and if i can remember that, i had to be pretty darn old. maybe it's karma!)

hahaha. That's my 6yo. And yeah, no bathroom water, only kitchen water. lol I get his water if it's not a big deal, but if I can't (like if ds2 is almost asleep) he has to get it himself. 


 

Originally Posted by JudiAU 

I don't think a young child ever manipulates their parent.

 I agree. I think they are too self centered to think that far outside of themselves. They know how their actions affect them ("when I cry, I get a bottle") but they don't think in terms of how their actions affect others ("If I'm loud enough, it drives mom crazy and she'll give me a bottle to keep me quiet").

[diana_of_the_dunes]

I'm SO there with you.  IMO, CIO is letting a baby cry with the intent of "teaching" them how to go to sleep on their own.  I've let my son cry sometimes, but not with that mentality.  There are times when he's overtired or wakes up in the middle of his nap when, I've learned from experience, my presence will result in him waking up more and prolonging the ordeal.  And then there are times when I go in the second he cries.  It just depends on the type of cry. I think that following your child's needs is what AP is all about, and it doesn't alwayse mean rushing in the second they squeak!  Mamas here seem so afraid of "accidentally" letting their baby CIO; if it's an accident, without the intent of teaching them to sleep, it's not CIO!  (sorry, got a little OT...)

DS is in the same exact spot as your DD, except that mine instantly drains any bottle put within reaching distance.  Doesn't matter if it's water, milk, or a mixture.  If he doesn't get one at his established waking times, he cries.  And cries.  And cries.  Doesn't matter if we hold him, rock him, sing, pat, whatever.  It's bottle or bust.  He also will drain a bottle with water, then wake 15 - 45 minutes later and demand another.  I think he probably is hungry, at least after a certain point. 

When he was around 9 months old, we could let him fuss for a few minutes when he woke at 11:30 and found he would go back to sleep til about 1:30 or so.  Then somewhere in all the teething and developmental leaps, we got right back to a bottle at 11:30 and another at 3:30.  If I could get him down to one at 2:30 or later, I'd be ecstatic!  Since we're trying to nightwean before we start TTC #2, we're trying to stretch out the time between bottles (again).

We used to co-sleep, but stopped when I realized that we were waking each other awake.  He had no trouble transitioning to a crib, and slept much better from the first night (which made me so sad!).  However, I've found that when DS wakes for his first nightime bottle around 11:30 pm, I can hold him off for a bit if I bring him to bed with me.  It's been a rough road, though, and I definitely feel your pain.  I'm so sleep-deprived I've actually caught myself thinking things like, "If I got into a car crash, I'd probably go to the hospital and be able to get some sleep."  Of course, then my rational self kicks in, but... yikes!    I'm all about doing what's best for my baby, but I'm starting to realize that might mean taking care of myself a bit more.

[tzs]

  I'm so sleep-deprived I've actually caught myself thinking things like, "If I got into a car crash, I'd probably go to the hospital and be able to get some sleep."  Of course, then my rational self kicks in, but... yikes!    I'm all about doing what's best for my baby, but I'm starting to realize that might mean taking care of myself a bit more.

off topic but we must have the same brain deprivation issues because i've thought the same thing! mine was while working exhausted in early pregnancy and i would think "well, if i pass out at work at least the ambulance will take me to the hospital where i'll get some sleep." hmmm.....strange.

[Julybug]

My son is over 18mo old.  He had a beautiful stretch of time from about 10wks until around 5mo when he fairly consistently slept 5-6hrs in the first stretch at night.  After that for a while, he was up every hour for the rest of the night.  And then for the best period of time - 4-5mo - he would usually only wake up twice (around 3am and 6am).  And.... then it stopped.  He got a respiratory bug, and his sleep really never recovered.  We now are fairly sure he had undiagnosed ear infections last winter.  :(  We had to rock him completely to sleep - and if he woke up in transferring him to his crib, he would scream and we would have to do it all over again.  He co-sleeps with us part of the time, generally in the last few hours in the morning.  But most of the time he can't peacefully sleep anywhere (crib or bed with us) for more than a few hours at a time.  He's actually more restless in bed with us, usually, so co-sleeping more is not the solution for us personally.  He either squirms or wants to nurse every three seconds (and he's an energetic, side-switching nurser, so there is little way for me to rest when he does).

In the fall, when he was 15mo old, we did a variant on the No Cry Sleep Solution (that I only half-jokingly call the less-cry sleep solution).  We were finally so tired and frustrated that we felt we had to do something to try to help us all to get more sleep.  He was never left alone to cry, but he did cry as we tried to get him to get used to falling asleep in his crib (instead of in our arms).  One or the other of us was with him the whole time he was awake, touching him, talking to him, giving him a hug, etc.  When it go to be too much, we would bring him to bed with us for the last part of the night.  It did help, especially with shortening how long it took for him to go to sleep at night, and at least for a while, he was sleeping longer stretches.  But then he got back-to-back ear infections a few weeks later, and traveling for the holidays, followed not long after that by a stomach virus that lingered for almost two weeks.  So it undid our sleep work.... *sigh*.

We're planning on giving it another go, but we think he's having some gas issues that are waking him up (not sure if it's because of the stomach bug, not eating much for over a week, and then eating a lot to try to make up for it).  We may try some stuff we got from the health food store to see if it settles his stomach before trying again with the sleep thing.

I understand being exhausted and trying to figure out what to do.  The game really does change as they get older and you start finding the grey areas (needs/wants).  I absolutely don't believe in CIO, but even Pantley of the No Cry Sleep Solution says depending on how you feel about it, a few minutes of "protest" from a toddler or preschooler because they're unhappy they're being put to bed may be okay.  You may want to read through her Toddler/Preschooler sleep book for some ideas, or at least another perspective.

[Zimbah]

I think your strategy of changing the bottle to water to see if it reduces her need/want for it is a good idea. She might find that it's not really appealing anymore and she doesn't bother to call for it.  Or she might actually be thirsty in which case there's not much you can do really at that age - you could try leaving her with a bottle in the cot but I know with DD if I'd left her with water on her own she'd end up shaking the whole lot out over herself/the cot, also at 13 mo she probably won't be able to find it or fully comprehend. 

I know everyone has different views here but I partially nightweaned DD at 9mo using the Jay Gordon method combined with a Baby Whisperer method of walk in/walk out, which resulted in DD (and therefore me) having a good stretch of sleep between 11pm - 4am, bliss.  She did cry a bit but I never left her crying (I did leave her grizzling) for more than 2 minutes at a time.  Best thing I did as it restored my sanity, I was feeling absolutely desperate.  Then from around 15/16 months I cut her remaining night feeds down gradually to almost nothing and then stopped them, she finally started sleeping through a full night at 18 months.  Obviously she does wake up now and again asking for a drink of water or a cuddle but it rarely takes more than 1minute for me or DH to attend to her unless she's feeling ill.

[limabean]

16 months was the age I started wanting to put an end to nighttime nursing with my DD, so I understand your frustration. With my DD, I started giving her a pretty big snack just before her bedtime at 8:00 (a graham cracker, half a banana, and some milk or something like that), then doing a "dreamfeed" on my way to bed around 10:00, and that was enough to keep her sated until morning. The first few nights I did that, she didn't wake at all, and after that if she woke up before 6am I'd rock her back to sleep without nursing and she, amazingly, didn't have a problem with it -- I thought for sure she'd completely freak out. After about a month I stopped doing the dreamfeed and she continued to sleep through. 

[Ish'smom]

CIO is always CIO.  If I wake up crying and need something at night I expect that the people in my house who love me will help me.  (Nightmare, illness, dealing with sick kids and need help, got a bad phone call and cant go to sleep)   As I am an adult I dont need help and support at night often but children still get scared, lonely, need their comforting routines etc.  I will come when my teenagers cry at night.  

[Zimbah]

I don't think the OP is talking about actual 'cry it out' ie just leaving her daughter to cry.  She's trying to find gentle ways to reduce night-time waking which I think is totally reasonable.  Parents can tell the difference between crying in distress and crying/grizzling that means 'I'm going to fall asleep soon' or whatever.  Sometimes my DD will cry in the night and I can tell if she sounds really tired and in fact is probably just crying in her sleep - I leave her for a few minutes and she invariably stops so clearly she wasn't actually distressed.  What would be the point of me getting out of bed, she's not even awake??  OTOH if she cries in an upset/more awake way then I will go in to see what the matter is.  When DD eventually reaches the teenage years, yes if she's crying at night because she's upset or ill then of course I would go to her.  But if she called out for mum because she wanted a snack/bottle of water/to have a chat, then I would react very differently!

[brennan]

Crying while you are present is not cio.  You can make changes and it is okay if your lo cries.  I night weaned dd at 20ish months and believe me there were tears, but its what we both needed.  I really think though that 16 months is too young to leave alone.  Sometimes dd asks for a cup of milk or water in the night and I will get up and get it for her.  I started keeping water by our bed and that helps.  When she moves to her own be she will have her own cup, and if she is more demanding then we will deal with it when she is more verbal, but when she is still not fully able to communicate (and she is pretty verbal) and I don't think that she would yet understand why I'm not getting something for her, only that I'm not getting something for her.

[brennan]

Originally Posted by Zimbah 

I don't think the OP is talking about actual 'cry it out' ie just leaving her daughter to cry.  She's trying to find gentle ways to reduce night-time waking which I think is totally reasonable.  Parents can tell the difference between crying in distress and crying/grizzling that means 'I'm going to fall asleep soon' or whatever.  Sometimes my DD will cry in the night and I can tell if she sounds really tired and in fact is probably just crying in her sleep - I leave her for a few minutes and she invariably stops so clearly she wasn't actually distressed.  What would be the point of me getting out of bed, she's not even awake??  OTOH if she cries in an upset/more awake way then I will go in to see what the matter is.  When DD eventually reaches the teenage years, yes if she's crying at night because she's upset or ill then of course I would go to her.  But if she called out for mum because she wanted a snack/bottle of water/to have a chat, then I would react very differently!

I totally agree about sleep crying, dd sometimes cries in her sleep when I'm not in the room, but I know that she is asleep by the way that she cries.  I don't go to her unless its repetitive, as I know that she is asleep because I have gone into her room to find her fast asleep.