One chance to convince them (UPDATE)

[krisnicjohn]

Hi! Long time reader, first time poster! Thanks in advance for any advice and information.

This morning good friends just had their second child, first boy. Had the fortune of being in the hospital room when the doctor came in to discuss circumcision. Dad is open to leaving son intact, Mom is against it. Her main reason is to prevent teasing of the child. Dad is leaving the decision to Mom because he wants her to be happy. The procedure will be performed tomorrow, if they consent. Dad is open to receiving more information about the negative aspects, but refuses to watch a video.

Does anyone have any suggestions on a short but informative (convincing!) article for someone that is just realizing circumcision might not be a good idea, but has a short amount of time to make a decision and/or would need to convince his wife? Or anything else I could email to him that would be helpful in keeping this precious little baby intact? Thank you so much!

[Night_Nurse]

It's important for them to know a circumcision does NOT have to be done in the hospital during the first few days of life. They can have done in a doctor's office anytime. It's not a decision that has to be made now. I wonder why the dad refuses to watch a video?

A few links I like are:

http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html

http://circumcisiondecisionmaker.com/

http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/9985.html

http://www.oprah.com/relationships/Should-We-Circumcise-Our-Son/1

http://www.oknocirc.blogspot.com/

Good luck!

[krisnicjohn]

Thanks for your reply!

I think the reason he is against watching a video is because in trying to convince them against circumcision, the cruelty of the procedure was stressed. So he knows it would not be easy to watch, and therefore does not want to watch. Mom's main reason for circumcision is to prevent teasing-- I can't convince her that her son won't be teased, but I wish I could convince her that the pros of leaving her son intact completely outweigh the cons of him possibly being teased. Frustrating.

Thanks for the links! I will look through and see what would be best to send to Dad!

[AnnDMFT]

Here is a blog written by a 13 y.o. Intact boy living in the U.S.

http://guggiedaly.blogspot.com/

The WHOLE Network also is great.

http://www.thewholenetwork.org/index.html

I find so incredibly frustrating that they won't watch a video because they don't want to witness the horrors of the procedure but will, without much to convince them, hand over their child so it can be done to him. 

[krisnicjohn]

Thank you so much for the links. Especially heartwarming was the part in the blog post that talked about teasing. I think sometimes children are so much wiser than we are!

I completely agree about the frustration of the refusal to watch the video! Will try to work on Dad and Mom again this morning using the information that was shared here.

[AnnDMFT]

Bless you for doing so.   :O)

[vachi73]

ITA with PP who said that there's no reason this has to be decided today/tomorrow, or done tomorrow. If the parents are on the fence, encourage them to wait a few weeks. No harm done by waiting, right?

Also, IDK how fierce a breastfeeder your friend is, but you might try the "circ is known to interfere with establishing breastfeeding relationships" argument. Another reason to wait, or better yet, skip altogether.

If the "benefit" is to avoid teasing, her certainly isn't going to be teased by anyone in the next few years ... unless it is his own caregivers. Which begs the point, is teasing the real reason, or is the mom just using that as a way to cover up her lack of comfort with an intact penis?

I think that sometimes, parents just haven't seen an intact little boy, and after a few weeks of that, they're comfortable with it and see less reason to circ.

Good luck!! I hope that you can at least delay this for that baby. You are a great friend to even try. Post an update when you can...

[Anastasiya]

What about mentioning the new circ vs intact stats? That her son may likely BE teased if he IS circed?

Also, I would tell her that in lots of boys who are of an age to be teased, the foreskin is already retractable, so any time he needs to pee in public with his peers, he could very well be able to pull the foreskin back and look just like them anyway. They wouldn't have a clue.

Of course, this is all not 100% certain (neither the circ stat facts nor the retractibility), but it'll give her some more to think about.

[krisnicjohn]

Originally Posted by AnnDMFT 

Bless you for doing so.   :O)

Thank you! I'm not a confrontational person, and I hate to offend anyone, but I totally believe circumcision is wrong. If I can cause them to at least wait on the procedure so that they can think it through, I'll feel a little better about the situation.

[AnnDMFT]

I totally understand.  I am the same way.  I'm very non-confrontational too.  I'm most vocal about it on my blog but rarely approach anyone face to face about it. 

I am currently a little depressed because a friend of mine chose to have her son circ'ed in spite of knowing all of the benefits of foreskin.  I just don't understand and I'm having trouble getting my feelings about her in order right now.

[krisnicjohn]

Originally Posted by vachi73 

ITA with PP who said that there's no reason this has to be decided today/tomorrow, or done tomorrow. If the parents are on the fence, encourage them to wait a few weeks. No harm done by waiting, right?

Also, IDK how fierce a breastfeeder your friend is, but you might try the "circ is known to interfere with establishing breastfeeding relationships" argument. Another reason to wait, or better yet, skip altogether.

If the "benefit" is to avoid teasing, her certainly isn't going to be teased by anyone in the next few years ... unless it is his own caregivers. Which begs the point, is teasing the real reason, or is the mom just using that as a way to cover up her lack of comfort with an intact penis?

I think that sometimes, parents just haven't seen an intact little boy, and after a few weeks of that, they're comfortable with it and see less reason to circ.

Good luck!! I hope that you can at least delay this for that baby. You are a great friend to even try. Post an update when you can...

You are totally correct-- Plenty of time to decide! That was one of the things I stressed in one of the emails that was sent today.

She is breastfeeding this baby, as she did with her daughter. But she is sort of a timid breast feeder, in that she is ultra conservative while doing so. She goes to another room, or asks everyone to leave, etc. I realize this is probably common, but I wonder if there is some sort of correlation..... I could be way off base. She is conservative in most areas, so perhaps an uncircumcised penis makes her uncomfortable.....? I get the feeling the opinions of others (i.e. her church family, close friends, sisters, etc.) mean an inordinate amount to her. That is why the correspondence is mainly with her husband, as the close friendship with him was established years before they were married. I am not as close to her, I am not a mother, and my opinion is not as valuable as others' opinions.

I didn't think about mentioning the point about the breastfeeding hindrance. That is a great point! Thank you for the advice and the kind words!

[krisnicjohn]

Originally Posted by Anastasiya 



What about mentioning the new circ vs intact stats? That her son may likely BE teased if he IS circed?

Also, I would tell her that in lots of boys who are of an age to be teased, the foreskin is already retractable, so any time he needs to pee in public with his peers, he could very well be able to pull the foreskin back and look just like them anyway. They wouldn't have a clue.

Of course, this is all not 100% certain (neither the circ stat facts nor the retractibility), but it'll give her some more to think about.


 

This is a great point! Where might I find information on those particular stats?

Another great point about the retractable foreskin! You ladies rock! Thank you!

[krisnicjohn]

Originally Posted by AnnDMFT 

I totally understand.  I am the same way.  I'm very non-confrontational too.  I'm most vocal about it on my blog but rarely approach anyone face to face about it. 

I am currently a little depressed because a friend of mine chose to have her son circ'ed in spite of knowing all of the benefits of foreskin.  I just don't understand and I'm having trouble getting my feelings about her in order right now.

Is your blog public? Do you have a link to it? Or is it the one posted above?

I am so sorry regarding your angst over your friend! I totally understand-- Two and a half years ago I couldn't even convince my own baby sister not to circumcise when my precious nephew was born. Of course, now she regrets it. So often I get the retort, "You don't even have children! Why would you try to tell me what to do with my son?" To me it matters not if I have no sons or 100 sons; I would never think it is okay to cut off part of the penis of a defenseless child.

Keep us updated about your friend. It is so hard! A co-worker to which I have grown extremely close, is due in 4 months with her second son. I'm almost positive I won't convince her either. She and I already disagree about almost everything when it comes to children: Co-sleeping, breast feeding, extended breast feeding, nurturing, etc. I still have time to try though!
 

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by krisnicjohn 

You are totally correct-- Plenty of time to decide! That was one of the things I stressed in one of the emails that was sent today.

She is breastfeeding this baby, as she did with her daughter. But she is sort of a timid breast feeder, in that she is ultra conservative while doing so. She goes to another room, or asks everyone to leave, etc. I realize this is probably common, but I wonder if there is some sort of correlation..... I could be way off base. She is conservative in most areas, so perhaps an uncircumcised penis makes her uncomfortable.....? I get the feeling the opinions of others (i.e. her church family, close friends, sisters, etc.) mean an inordinate amount to her. That is why the correspondence is mainly with her husband, as the close friendship with him was established years before they were married. I am not as close to her, I am not a mother, and my opinion is not as valuable as others' opinions.

I didn't think about mentioning the point about the breastfeeding hindrance. That is a great point! Thank you for the advice and the kind words!

If she's that conservative and modest about things, then I'm wondering if part of her concern is that she's been told she'll have to retract and clean at every diaper change, and that bothers her. Lots of very conservative people circ for that reason alone....they don't want to have to constantly manipulate their boy's penis.

So, if that IS the case, I'd let them know that's not what is supposed to be done, and that there is actually less touching the penis of an intact boy than there is a circ'd boy, since if they circ she'll likely have to goop him up and retract any skin at every change so things don't stick.

As for the stats and sources on the other thing....hold on.....gotta get kids in bed.

[krisnicjohn]

Originally Posted by Anastasiya 





If she's that conservative and modest about things, then I'm wondering if part of her concern is that she's been told she'll have to retract and clean at every diaper change, and that bothers her. Lots of very conservative people circ for that reason alone....they don't want to have to constantly manipulate their boy's penis.So, if that IS the case, I'd let them know that's not what is supposed to be done, and that there is actually less touching the penis of an intact boy than there is a circ'd boy, since if they circ she'll likely have to goop him up and retract any skin at every change so things don't stick.As for the stats and sources on the other thing....hold on.....gotta get kids in bed.

They asked the doctor about that, and the doctor admitted there would not need to be any extra care to the intact penis. Mom says that's not the problem, but I can't be sure.

There has been no response from them today regarding any of the information. I think they're both now avoiding the subject. Still holding out hope!
 

[AnnDMFT]

My blog is private.  But, I would be happy to send you an invite if you want.   You can email me at [e-mail] if you would like an invite!

Thanks so much for you kind words.  I am doing my best to work through this in a way that will help me be a better person (rather than bitter, like I feel right now).  Everyone in this forum certainly does help!

[AnnieNimIty]

Maybe they will avoid it until he is legal...

[krisnicjohn]

Originally Posted by AnnDMFT 

My blog is private.  But, I would be happy to send you an invite if you want.   You can email me at [e-mail] if you would like an invite!

Thanks so much for you kind words.  I am doing my best to work through this in a way that will help me be a better person (rather than bitter, like I feel right now).  Everyone in this forum certainly does help!

Sent an email! So glad you're finding the support here you need!

[krisnicjohn]

Originally Posted by AnnieNimIty 

Maybe they will avoid it until he is legal...

Yes! Totally agree! It can always be done, but it can never be undone!

[krisnicjohn]

What a shame....They decided to NOT circumcise right away and wait a couple weeks to consider the options. Good news, right? I even saw him and changed his diaper the first weekend after he was born, and was so excited to see he was intact. But today, she posted this on Facebook:

At the dr's office... Getting C's circumcision ... I'm nervous!!! I hope this goes well! I don't wanna cry!

Heartbreaking. One of the saddest things are the comments and "likes" left by her friends that support it:

I was the same way. The dr told me that its over before they even know what happened.

My doc gave my boys a local anesthetic so they didn't feel a thing. Some slept through it. Except E, he screamed all the way through. I just told myself that if Jesus went through it, my boy can too.

I haven't had to deal with that yet, but I'm sure I will eventually. I hope it goes well!

I feel like I failed that little boy. Like I should have pushed harder, and not just assumed that it wouldn't get done at all since it didn't get done right away. So sad.