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Personal feelings about circ'ing affecing relationships with others. - Page 2

post #21 of 28

Ive only really hung out with other AP parents so this has not really been an issue for me.  i talked my SIL and her DH into leaving their son intact. I think I will be in the camp to cut off a relationship with someone who chooses to do the wrong thing even though they have been educated.  I just cant respect someone like that.

post #22 of 28
Thread Starter 

@ Takers--  The 3 pp's before mine said exactly what I would.

 

 

I am not so upset by parents who unknowingly and blindly let their son be circumcised....I am particularly upset by this instance because she was educated about it, even go as far as saying that the "idea of circ'ing made her sick to her stomach" and then ultimately deciding to circ him based off of her husband preference that he be circ'ed. 

 

And, as aprons and acorns said, this is not a parenting choice to me.  It is a human rights issue.  Sovereignty over one's body should never be violated. 

 

And I know that circ'ed men can grow and thrive into gentle and nurturing people (my husband is one of them too)! 

 

My anger is slowly subsiding and now I just look at photos of her son and feel sad for him.  I'm pretty sure this is the same scenario for my another one of my friends who had a baby (she was against it but probably decided to circ her son because her husband had a hissy fit when she brought up leaving him Intact) but I have a policy not to ask and, unlike the person I made the post about, she didn't offer up that she chose to circ her son and her (in my opinion, dumbass) reason for doing so. 

post #23 of 28

You know, that "husband hissy fit" can be a pretty strong factor. The baby is not born yet, and you aren't thinking of them as the independent person they will become just yet... and then on the other side there is this person you have built a (hopefully) wonderful, loving relationship with. It was really hard for me because this was the first roadblock of its kind in my marriage. Dh and I are partners in everything we do, and I had to pull it together to have the courage to go directly against his adamant wishes, and those of his parents and pretty much everyone around me (though his parents ended up being very nice and not in my face at all about it.... now it is a nonissue with everyone. That in and of itself helps to break down the urban legends surrounding foreskin, and normalizes intactness, which is a step in the right direction).

 

I know we all want the mama bear instincts to override relationship concerns, but without walking in the other person's shoes, it is so hard to know what was said, and the pressures they feel. It has been said many times before, but I just wanted to say it in my own words, because this is a great thread, and it speaks to a lot of the feelings I have had.

 

 

Truthful words aren't always beautiful

Beautiful words aren't always truthful

 

 

Some people, dads especially, aren't ready do acknowledge the truth just yet, and it's easier for them to stay oblivious. I think some others, even if they know the truth and know what they want to do, find it easier to just go along with the stream.

post #24 of 28

A big thanks to everyone for being so kind in their replies.

 

I hadn't thought of this issue as a human right's issue so I couldn't see where you (general) were coming from. Now that it's been brought up I can see how 1) if you felt this was more than a parenting issue, 2) you'd spent time trying to convince someone to your side of a human right's issue, and 3) they agreed with you that it was a human right's issue but then went 'against' that issue you'd be upset. I do hope this doesn't ruin your friendship as it sounded like you'd been friends for a while. I also hope that this doesn't make you not speak out on this topic which you feel so strongly about.

post #25 of 28


 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tammylsmith View Post

 I had to pull it together to have the courage to go directly against his adamant wishes, and those of his parents and pretty much everyone around me (though his parents ended up being very nice and not in my face at all about it.... now it is a nonissue with everyone. That in and of itself helps to break down the urban legends surrounding foreskin, and normalizes intactness, which is a step in the right direction).


This reminded me of a conversation I had with my mother when I was pregnant with my now 14 year old. She mentioned that DH and I would have decide if we would have the baby circ. if it was a boy. And I said no, there was no way my baby would have such a thing done. And she said that she thought I should leave it up to DH, because he would most likely want the baby to look like him.

 

And then I told her something she really didn't want to know about her son in law. My DH is intact. He's from another country, and circ. is a US thing. My mom got so weirded out by having this information about my DH's penis, in spite of being the one who brought up the subject!  It was really funny.

 

I also think that intactness is gradually becoming more normal. Fourteen years ago, about half of all males born in the US were circ, Now it is down to what? 33%?  As more of these boys grow up, date, shower after gym class, have lovers, and have their own children, intactness will continue to become more and more normal. It's like a snow ball, and I really think we're reaching a critical mass point.

 

The horrid clip of Dr. Oz showing how a foreskin retains germs is laughable to any one whose ever been around a grown man with a foreskin.

post #26 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by takers View Post

A big thanks to everyone for being so kind in their replies.

 

I hadn't thought of this issue as a human right's issue so I couldn't see where you (general) were coming from. Now that it's been brought up I can see how 1) if you felt this was more than a parenting issue, 2) you'd spent time trying to convince someone to your side of a human right's issue, and 3) they agreed with you that it was a human right's issue but then went 'against' that issue you'd be upset. I do hope this doesn't ruin your friendship as it sounded like you'd been friends for a while. I also hope that this doesn't make you not speak out on this topic which you feel so strongly about.

I don't think most people do think of it that way.  I became an Intactivist when my mind made the switch from "parenting decision to human rights issue." 

 

I value my friendship with her and will continue to.  However, I can't say that it doesn't pop up into my mind still! 
 

post #27 of 28

 

My single best friend circumcised her son because she had never seen an intact penis and thought one would be weird. She said it was an agonizing decision because she knew it would effect him for the rest of his life, yet her reasoning had nothing to do with his well being. She claims to have done all the research. 

Yes, I feel like I didn't do enough but it was her choice. Friendships evolve and change, circumcision has effected our relationship. It has taken me time to accept the choice that she made.

 

I always like to be able to see both sides to an argument, I have researched every argument I have heard or read about circ. trying to understand why a parent would choose to do it. However, I cannot see the other side. I do understand someone blindly believing that it is best due to it being a societal norm. I do not believe that implementing your personal belief on your child's genitals is a parenting choice. It's a basic human right to make your own choices regarding your body.

 

From my experience with her I will now send my friends a save the penis packet before they know what they are having just for educational purposes. 

 

Remember that there are others. I casually brought it up with a male friend he is not having children yet but it must have planted a seed. 7 months later he brought it up telling me that he was circed and knew nothing else but he believed you should leave things as nature intended because they were obviously created for a reason. joy.gif

 

 

post #28 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post


Although some parenting choices are clearly better, children can survive and thrive in spite of their parents not doing things *right.*  I agree with you on circ., but have found in my own life that dropping all judgments of others is a path to inner peace.

 

Although sharing what you've learned may be part of your Dharma, you aren't responsible for the choices others make. You don't need to control what they do with the information.

 

My oldest child is 14. When I started out I was going to do everything Right. I read all the books, I went to LLL, I studied, and I tried. And now as I look back over her first 14 years, I think I go some stuff right, and some stuff not-so-right, and some stuff I'm really not sure if it was right or not.

 

The circ. issue is more black and white than most parenting issues, but the attitude you feel can come out on MANY other choices. Rather than focus on what they did (because we ALL do not-so-good things sometimes) focus on their inner most beings -- that part of them that is sacred and divine. See them for who they really are, not as this one choice.

 

How I got past this attitude (which I used to have on lots of issues) was by seeing my own imperfections, and making a choice not to judge myself or others.

 



I just wanted to say THANK YOU for posting this, Linda. This is exactly what I've needed to hear lately as I struggle with similar issues as the OP. Especially: "Although sharing what you've learned may be part of your Dharma, you aren't responsible for the choices others make. You don't need to control what they do with the information." I think that this advice might be the key to being a good intactivist! I have been struggling lately with how to effectively wear my intactivist hat while simultaneously grappling with sadness and anger toward all those who still choose to wear blinders and continue this awful cycle of violence.

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