I think my friend's crying baby stressed out my son.

[NewMom610]

My best friend and I have very different parenting practices, and up until now it hasn't seemed to matter much. However, she brought her 3 month old to hang out with my son {7 months} yesterday.  She let her son cry and/or fuss in the car set for over two hours because "it wasn't time for him to eat."  This went on for quite some time.  

While her child was crying DS kept trying to give him toys, rattles, and what not.  He was clearly bothered.  So much so that I kept making comments to my friend about how DS was clearly a "caretaker" in the hopes she'd catch my drift.  Eventually I was able to get my friend to feed her son, and he stopped crying...but they left when she finished, because "he wasn't behaving." {her words}

Since then DS has been extra clingy and seemingly sensitive.  Yesterday he would not let me put him down or even leave him in the room so I could use the restroom.  Today when a little boy screamed {in excitement...not maliciously} near him at the park he lost it and started bawling with his upset cry.  A dog barked while we were out, and he cried his upset cry for almost 10 minutes!  {We have a dog, so this is VERY unusual.} All day today he has wanted to be held.  He would only nap on my lap and insisted DH hold him while trying to change his diaper.  As I write this he is sleeping in my lap {yes at 11:00 PM}, because it was the only way he would sleep.

Is it possible that this is stress related to her baby screaming?  I just can't figure it out.  My son is very independent, outgoing, and social, and ever since they left he has been quite the opposite.

Obviously if his stress/anxiousness since yesterday is related to her letting her son cry {ugh} I need to re-evaluate bringing our kids together.  Up until this point I've tried very hard to play the "we parent our way. you parent yours" role, but if it is going to affect DS this deeply I can't do that.  Yesterday was traumatic for both he and I from what I can tell.  I'm still upset over the situation.

DH thinks I am "projecting" my stress and discomfort with the situation onto DS, and he may be right.  But there is a marked difference at least slightly.  I mean my child usually can't stay away from the other kids, and today he just sat and played at the table all by himself.  Pair that with the clinginess, and I am suspicious.

Thanks for any insight you may have.

[Adaline'sMama]

Absolutely. My DD cries whenever she hears another baby cry. I think it is totally possible that your DS's stress was due to the other baby crying. It is human nature to get upset when you see another helpless human in distress.

I know you are trying to keep the peace with your friend, and more power to you, but there is no way I could have watched that. I consider someone leaving their 3 month old (12 - 16 week old) little bitty infant in a carseat for 2 hours to cry a form of neglect that I am not willing to tolerate. Three month olds dont "behave" or "misbehave", they need love and care constantly. I believe you will continue to have issues like this with your friend. Didnt she bring her babe over to "hang out" with your DS? You cant hang out in a carseat. Carseats are for cars.

Im sorry you son got stressed out. I totally disagree with your DH, I think it was related. I hope you have some friends that are more like minded to help provide you with a good support network.

[Terrilein]

I think you're absolutely right, too. Your son was trying to do everything in his experience and power to meet that baby's needs and he was failing. How do we feel when we fail and get constantly reminded about it? Pretty darn awful. I think it would help him if you could fabricate a similar situation in which he'll succeed so that he can overcome this "slump".

FWIW, my dd had a similar reaction to a doll that my friend's little girl had. The doll would cry and need a bottle, then it would sleep. But it would wake up and the whole cycle which lasted only a few minutes would start all over again. My dd thought at first that it was a really cool doll but the fun quickly evaporated as she realized in her toddler's mind that she couldn't meet the doll's needs no matter how hard she tried. There was no making this play-baby happy! She ended up bringing the doll to me, lifting my shirt up and trying to force the doll to nurse. I quickly located the on/off switch and the baby took a looooooong nap. But my dd was horribly stressed from this doll. She thought she was being a good play-parent and this just completely overwhelmed her. Fortunately it didn't follow her around like it's doing your ds. And it turned out that my friend's family weren't very happy with the doll either for similar reasons, and although they couldn't get rid of it (it was a gift), it "accidentally" took a bath and didn't "work" anymore thereafter.

Sure hope your sweet ds gets over this incident soon! :hug

[GoBecGo]

I have a DD born the same month as your son.

I cannot IMAGINE her being able to bring and pass toys to another child or even identify the need to do so - she is able to hold, manipulate and release things, but just doesn't have the motor or social skills to bring and "give" a toy to an upset baby.  Also she is only sitting.  Perhaps your son is crawling and very very advanced and was able to identify and address the crying baby, but i know neither of mine could be.  How do you think he came to the conclusion of giving toys?  Do you give him rattles and such when he cries to be fed?  Did he try to cuddle the smaller baby?

My DD has days when she's clingy, days when she's fragile (usually after a bad night's sleep), and many more days when she's more robust.  That to me is a normal part of babyhood/childhood/adulthood/life.  My mood impacts very strongly on hers.  Days when i am sad she is more clingy - it helps with my sadness, i'm sure this is natures plan on how to prevent grief leading to neglect and starvation of little babies.

So i guess i'm going to agree with your DH.  If you'd written this post about a much older child (your son was 18months + for example) i would be more inclined to think his behaviour was related to the crying baby, but he is just a baby himself.  I think how YOU felt about it would have far more effect on him than the facts of the situation.

I wonder if your friend felt judged since you mentioned more than once how your son was "caretaking" and "eventually got her to feed her son" and that is why she acted awkwardly and then left...?  Maybe she is really struggling with the tasks of motherhood?  I know with my #1 i really couldn't bear to feed her "before it was time" - i was DESPERATE for some space, she was HN and her father didn't help me at all.  I would have strangled her if i didn't get to put her down for at least a little time during the day, even if she fussed (though she was HN, she fussed the whole time, literally).  I really NEEDED the breaks between feeds to hang onto my sanity.

Ultimately you don't have to hang out with anyone you don't want to.  I wouldn't willingly have a crying baby in my house, because *I* can't stand the noise.

[Friday13th]

I totally understand that it must have been really upsetting for you but I'm with GoBec, there's no way my 7 month old would see an infant in a carseat as anything other than a loud toy.  He isn't crawling and certainly doesn't hand anything to anyone.  If I put him near an infant he's probably suck on their feet but that's about it. 

At this age they are way more affected by you than by a visitor so I'd guess he's reacting to your stress, as your husband suggested.  Just give him lots of snuggles and attention, it'll make you both feel better.

[Terrilein]

Duh, I didn't realize your baby is so young. I have to agree with the others and say that it would be highly unusual for him to be expressing that kind of empathy this early.

[mamazee]

Yeah a 7-month-old was more likely fussy due to teething than distressed about another child.

[NewMom610]

Thank you, everyone.

To answer the questions about passing toys.  I should have been more clear - DS was sitting facing the carseat and when the baby would cry he would try to pass one to him.  I believe this is something he picked up at our daily neighborhood playgroup.  The older kids often pass toys to the younger children when they are upset, and DS started doing it about two weeks ago off & on.  And yes, he does crawl & has for about 3 weeks - so he could go get a toy and bring it over.  Often he would pass the toy with which he was playing and get himself a new one.

You are all probably right.  It probably was something else, and it just coincided with this visit.  I don't think it is teething {we just did 4 teeth in 10 days...awful}, but I'm sure it could be something else.  Just the natural ebb and flow.

FWIW, BFF has been seriously pulling away ever since she had her son.  She admits she has huge issues with how we parent, and it makes her uncomfortable that we "spoil" our child.  This get together felt like a last ditch effort to show her that DS isn't a spoiled monster.  However, if this friendship survives, I plan to keep a close eye on how it affects DS.  

Thanks again!  You guys helped me get my head straight!

[Adaline'sMama]

When I read your first post, I didnt realize that this was your BFF. I bet that makes things really hard. A best friend is hard to walk away from, especially when it is because of something as serious as huge differences in how you parent. Part of me wants to tell you to give her a little time to adjust to being a mom. Both 3 and 7 months so early into parenting. Maybe as she watches your DS grow, she will grow to realize that there is no such thing as a "monster" 7 month old. Babies arent spoiled, they are loved.

I also wanted to tell you that my DD was totally passing things back and forth at 7 months. She crawled all over the floor and everything she picked up, she crawled over to mommy or daddy and gave it to us. Now she gives all her findings to Ivan, our dog. This includes the food from her highchair tray. Once when I was crying and DD was 8 months old (Thanksgiving- 1st year without my grandma), she was crawling around and super hyper and she saw me crying and she came over and wanted to be picked up. I picked her up and she rested her head on my leg so sweetly. It made me smile and then she was off to crawl again. I think even very young babies are capable of human emotion, and not all babies look at other upset humans as "nothing more than a loud toy."

[Amanda_Reyasmom]

I just wanted to add that I totally agree with Holly and want to be that articulate when I grow up.  :)

I hate to say it, but I could not sit through that.  I would absolutely have to tell my friend how much I disagreed with her choices and if that was the end of our friendship I would have to get through that.  Frankly IMO that's what best friends are for.  7.5 years ago I started living with Dh and my bff was very vocal about that being a bad choice.  Guess what, even though it worked out, she was right.  It was a selfish decision and if it hadn't' worked my daughter would have been crushed.  :(  BFF and I are still friends even through the rough patch.  I respect her more for having the gumption to come to me about it too. 

[Knitting Mama]

Originally Posted by Amanda_Reyasmom 

I hate to say it, but I could not sit through that.  I would absolutely have to tell my friend how much I disagreed with her choices and if that was the end of our friendship I would have to get through that.  Frankly IMO that's what best friends are for.  7.5 years ago I started living with Dh and my bff was very vocal about that being a bad choice.  Guess what, even though it worked out, she was right.  It was a selfish decision and if it hadn't' worked my daughter would have been crushed.  :(  BFF and I are still friends even through the rough patch.  I respect her more for having the gumption to come to me about it too.
 

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama 

I know you are trying to keep the peace with your friend, and more power to you, but there is no way I could have watched that. I consider someone leaving their 3 month old (12 - 16 week old) little bitty infant in a carseat for 2 hours to cry a form of neglect that I am not willing to tolerate. Three month olds dont "behave" or "misbehave", they need love and care constantly. I believe you will continue to have issues like this with your friend. Didnt she bring her babe over to "hang out" with your DS? You cant hang out in a carseat. Carseats are for cars.

Fully agreeing with these ladies here. Becoming a parent can really affect friendships when you are so diametrically opposite in your parenting styles. I feel really badly for that poor little guy. I couldn't have stood it, myself.

[Lisa1970]

I would be very upset over your friend's complete lack of parenting abilities. Does she seem open to anything such as a book or magazine articles you could give her or advice? If not, then I would probably distance myself from this friendship. Things will only get worse and it will become harder and harder to stomach ((((hugs))))

[mamazee]

I have mixed feelings on the "break off the friendship" advice.  On one hand, making a baby cry two hours and go hungry like that is appalling.  Really awful, but you know it might be that she's gotten some terrible advice somewhere.  I had a friend who did that and later regretted it terribly.  I tried to be a gentle voice of reason, like "He really sounds hungry.  Have you asked your doctor about making him wait so long to eat?"  So after a short period fo time, she asked the doctor and it turned out she'd heard about harsh scheduling at church and the pediatrician strongly strongly told her not to do that.  And then she regretted it so terribly and I was glad to still be in her circle and help her find some new parenting strategies.

Also, although this is more about parenting disagreements that are not abusive (as making a baby cry out of arms due to hunger for 2 hours is IMO abuse), you will find that some issues that seem huge and worthy of breaking up friendships when your children are infants don't seem worthy of breaking up friendships when your kids are older.  Like choosing to not breastfeed without even trying for no reason other than "not wanting to be tied down", which to me seemed like the biggest parenting issue in the world when my first was an infant.  I have a friend who did that, and she is still my friend, and our kids are very close friends, and she's really a pretty darn good paernt despite our disagreement about how to feed babies.  I'm glad I didn't cut her out of my life when our oldest children were infants.

[Amanda_Reyasmom]

Originally Posted by mamazee

Also, although this is more about parenting disagreements that are not abusive (as making a baby cry out of arms due to hunger for 2 hours is IMO abuse), you will find that some issues that seem huge and worthy of breaking up friendships when your children are infants don't seem worthy of breaking up friendships when your kids are older.  Like choosing to not breastfeed without even trying for no reason other than "not wanting to be tied down", which to me seemed like the biggest parenting issue in the world when my first was an infant.  I have a friend who did that, and she is still my friend, and our kids are very close friends, and she's really a pretty darn good paernt despite our disagreement about how to feed babies.  I'm glad I didn't cut her out of my life when our oldest children were infants.

I absolutely do think making a baby cry from hunger for 2 hous in a carseat is abusive. 

 

[Adaline'sMama]

Originally Posted by Amanda_Reyasmom 

I just wanted to add that I totally agree with Holly and want to be that articulate when I grow up.  :)

 Thanks!

I think I called it neglect earlier, but I have to agree that I think making a 3 month old cry for 2 hours while restrained in a carseat, hungry, is abusive. Would you not consider it abuse if someone strapped you to a chair, hungry, and let you cry for two hours? In the adult world that only happens to people who are being held hostage or people who are being questioned because they are possibly being charge with a crime. And even in those circumstances, that behavior is not considered acceptable by the general public. So why is it okay to do it to a helpless baby? I dont think I would tell the mother that she was abusing her child and we couldnt be friends, but I would try to talk to her about it.  I dont advocate OP ditching her best friend because of this, because the friend is a brand new mom. If this behavior continued, and it was my friend, there is no way I could stand by and watch it happen.

[NewMom610]

Thanks everyone for your advice.

This has been a very difficult situation from the beginning.  I've suspected PPD since her child was about 10 days old, but she insists her feelings are normal {I assure you they aren't}.  It doesn't help that her DH is not a great guy, and he doesn't help her at all.

She's been emailing, texting, and calling since her child was born asking me for advice on how I kept it all together and seemed so calm and laid back.  When I make suggestions she dismisses them as being "spoiling" or "coddling."  Even when she was pregnant I suggested Dr. Sears {I find him to be the easiest of the AP authors to read}, and she said that she was reading Ferber {sigh}.

As you can imagine, I'm trying to save a very precious friendship while maintaining my sanity.  She always compliments my son's behavior and personality, but she hasn't connected that it could be because of the way we parent.  He is NEVER left to cry, encouraged constantly, worn, sleeps with us, etc.  

I was hoping that when she saw me with DS she'd be more inclined to follow my lead.  I'm not your "stereotypical AP parent" {I realize I'm overgeneralizing}.  I'm an ex-corporate executive with serious Type A & first child tendencies who has just been following my instinct when it comes to parenting.  She is still very set on following that overscheduled, structured life that we had before we were SAHMs, and she needs to let it go.  I think once she breaks through that or as I suspect the PPD things will change, so I'm trying very hard to hold on and be there for her.

Thanks for listening to me.  

[Knitting Mama]

Awww, you are a very good person for wanting to help her. I wish you the best of luck, and I hope she comes around to seeing that "spoiling" doesn't happen with babies. Or, as Dr. Sears put it, spoiling babies only occurs like spoiling fruit-- when they are left alone on a shelf.

[sk8boarder15]

It's good that you are TRYING to help. I know how hard it can be. I feel like my DH is my only BFF... and my sister is even "more" AP than me if YKWIM... so I can't imagine how hard this is on a friendship with a close friend. I've has to distance myself from other friends with kids becuase I don't like thier parenting practices, but never a BFF. 

For what its worth, when my DH was a baby my MIL was told to feed him every 2 hours once she went home from the hospital PERIOD, every two hours on the clock. And then after so long to stop the night feedings. He was EBF for over 2 mo, and BF for 9 mo (which isn't bad for the 80's) but in all his baby pictures he's SO SKINNY! She said he was a fussy skinny baby, and when she saw me feeding our ds on demand sometimes every HALF HOUR, she realized that her (now very big) son was just hungry all that time, and she actually admited she had probably been underfeeding him the first 3 months of his life. She was feeding every two hours becuase thats what a Doctor told her to do, and being a young mom she trusted him. This could be what your friend is going though, she's just doing what someone else thinks is best.... I feel like mom's should see the 2 hour rule as a guideline, and too many drs. use it as a schedual and mom's like your BFF and thier lo's suffer becuase of it. 

If she won't read dr. sears I don't know what to say... keep gently sugessting her baby would be happier if she fed him when he was hungry? Maybe she will listen over time? Maybe tell her how well it worked for you

[JudiAU]

Oh how sad. I see this all the time with young infants strapped into carseats. Is the baby formula fed and on a schedule?

If this is how your friend reacts to a 3 month old I can only predict it will get worse.

*I* would have been stressed by the afternoon. I am sure your child was too.

My 3.5 always tells me to pick up the 1.5 if she is upset and the 1.5 will cry if her brother is upset.

[JudiAU]

Originally Posted by NewMom610 

Thank you, everyone.

To answer the questions about passing toys.  I should have been more clear - DS was sitting facing the carseat and when the baby would cry he would try to pass one to him.  I believe this is something he picked up at our daily neighborhood playgroup.  The older kids often pass toys to the younger children when they are upset, and DS started doing it about two weeks ago off & on.  And yes, he does crawl & has for about 3 weeks - so he could go get a toy and bring it over.  Often he would pass the toy with which he was playing and get himself a new one.

You are all probably right.  It probably was something else, and it just coincided with this visit.  I don't think it is teething {we just did 4 teeth in 10 days...awful}, but I'm sure it could be something else.  Just the natural ebb and flow.

FWIW, BFF has been seriously pulling away ever since she had her son.  She admits she has huge issues with how we parent, and it makes her uncomfortable that we "spoil" our child.  This get together felt like a last ditch effort to show her that DS isn't a spoiled monster.  However, if this friendship survives, I plan to keep a close eye on how it affects DS.  

Thanks again!  You guys helped me get my head straight!

This actually makes me even sader. How on earth do you spoil a 7th month old baby? Again, I think you can expect her behavior towards her baby to be upsetting in the future.