Should this be a dealbreaker?

[PenelopeJune]

Hi. I never thought I'd be posting here, but I need some extremely objective advice. Apologies in advance because it's long.

My husband was fired from his job last spring, for something that was his own fault. Since then he has barely worked. He has worked 12 hours a month only since August. I went back to work after five years at home with our children. I worked two jobs, barely seeing the family, just to keep us afloat, until I just simply couldn't handle it and quit one of them in November. We are just barely, barely scraping by. I don't make a lot of money. Our agreement had been that I would only work the two jobs until he found a job opposite one of my shifts, so we wouldn't have to deal with daycare. But he wouldn't look for a job.
 

My husband has not applied for a job since August. I applied (with his permission) for a bus driver job for him, online. He didn't get the job, but was their next choice.

I found out from a friend that last week, they offered him another full time position (only two routes a day, so averaging about 3 hours a day) and that he turned it down, without telling me or talking to me about it. I was completely blindsided by this information, and completely hurt and embarrassed. He said that he didn't think that I would be mad.

He doesn't help around the house. He has one of our children with him for about 3 hours, and then she goes to preschool. The other child is in school full day. He doesn't have to drive either of them to or from school. He doesn't do laundry or clean or cook. He plays video games all day.

He does chop firewood (we heat our house with firewood) and makes a nominal amount at his 12 hour a month job that pays our rent. But I pay every other bill and buy groceries and gas, and it's not enough. The budget barely stretches to cover food, let alone any emergencies that could come up. We are absolutely not spending money on any luxuries.

I feel like not only is he not contributing in any way to our family, he lied to me about being offered the job, and made a huge decision that impacts our family without talking to me. I feel hurt and betrayed. He refuses to see my point of view, no matter how much I have tried reasoning with him.

He's a great guy, very nice. I've lost all passion for him, because I find it EXTREMELY difficult to be attracted to a man who does nothing but sit and play games all day. He's a good dad and the kids adore him.

Would this be a dealbreaker for you? If not, how long would you allow this to go on?

Thanks so much for reading, and any advice or thoughts you want to share. Be totally honest, I need to hear what you think. I've talked with others, but they all love me and are on my side, and I need to hear from people who have no idea who I am.

[Montana Mom]

Oh sweetie, I am so sorry you are going through this!!!  (((hugs)))

My 2nd chance ended in much the same situation.   I know exactly what you mean about losing attraction and respect over it.  Its a horrible feeling.  Me personally, I hung in there until I found out he was unfaithful then I filed for divorce. 

Can you qualify for pubic assistance, like food stamps for groceries?  What was DH like before he lost the job?  If you are considering seperation please get a safety net in place like public assistance or low income housing.

[Montana Mom]

Oh, and someone told me once that a woman needs a man who makes her feel secure.  ITA.  Him leaving the family scrambling for money (by choice) is definately causing insecurity!

[APToddlerMama]

No, that wouldn't be a deal breaker as you described it.  Is he perhaps, depressed? 

[PenelopeJune]

I don't know if he's depressed, and honestly, I kind of don't care at this point. My cupboards are bare. I can't even afford gas to GET to the grocery store, let alone food at this point. I have been supporting him for seven months without his help. I am not sure how long I can keep doing it.  

 

Can you qualify for pubic assistance, like food stamps for groceries?  What was DH like before he lost the job?  If you are considering seperation please get a safety net in place like public assistance or low income housing. 

 I refuse to apply for help when I have a perfectly capable grown man sitting at home. It's not fair to the tax payers to support his laziness. I am absolutely not against public assistance, but in this case I am. If I had to move out, or have him move out, then I would have little choice and wouldn't feel so terribly about it. Honestly, I'm ashamed enough that he sits at home all day.

DH skipped work a lot before he got fired. In fact, it's the reason he got fired.

I can't decide if it's a dealbreaker. And if it is, should it be after seven months or after seven years?

[rubelin]

um, yeah. getting fired 'cause you're skipping work and then not taking a job you're offered so you can play video games all day?? That is the behavior of an irresponsible teenager, not a man. I'd tell him what you told us and let him know that you're done unless something major changes - not as an ultimatum, but to give him one last chance to step up and be an equal partner in your family and not just the overgrown child he's been acting like.

[BabyBearsMummy]

Personally I think I would be DONE

He's lost his job because he was skipping work, hasn't bothered looking for adequate new work, turned down the job you managed to find and lied about it. And to top it all off he does not contribute to the home life at all. He has checked out with his video games for almost a year. Likely longer if you look back and are honest with yourself. To me the relationship would be over.

I have learned from my past mistakes. I must value myself and require other do as well. Also I have learned over the past few years it is much easier to be happy alone then living with people who bring me down and don't add any value to me. I used to be so very afraid of being alone but now I have found I am very happy alone.  

Of course only you can decide what is best for you and your family.

[crazyms]

Honestly I'm not sure if applying for assistance would work anyhow. From what I know of the programs in my state if you're married then both parties have to be in school or working or at least looking for employment to qualify so that could be an issue.

On to the question though... It wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me right off the bat but I wouldn't keep it up either. It's not fair to you and I wouldn't want to do it. I've been our primary breadwinner many times in our relationship even working 2-3 jobs at a time like you've been doing but it was only ever in a temporary situation. I would talk to him about and let him know where you stand. I'd also tell him if I'd reached my breaking point. He needs to get a job and the fact that he hasn't even been looking would be a major issue for me. My dh and I had some arguments about him not working during some of the times that I was making the money but he was at least looking. It was just a matter of getting him to understand that he couldn't wait forever for 'just the right' job for me. I'd get your dh to looking for job and quickly. I understand how you feel about the assistance but getting it would definitely be a major help to you.

If it were me here's how I would play it: Talk to dh and tell him how I felt. Let him know I need him to find something and quickly. Give him a couple of weeks (if I think I can bare it) to look and I'd start researching assistance programs, other resources, some kind of back up plan. I'd find out about and get the necessary paperwork/info for WIC, Medicaid or other state insurance, food stamps, child care assistance, and housing and utility assistance if I would need it. I think it may take about 2 weeks to get all the info together and really start looking into it. By now (in that 2 wks) dh should've started a serious job search if not I'd talk to him again. I'd tell him I'd reached the end of my rope and couldn't do it alone anymore, that I was going to have to go on assistance and he needed to do something NOW. I'd also find jobs for him to apply to and give him the list with info. Tell him that I'm applying for the assistance and he needs to get work now and go check on these jobs. I'd apply for the assistance or at least some of it (like state insurance and WIC). It can take a month sometimes to get the appointments and receive the help. I'm not sure if the others would help unless you were single. By the end of that month or whatever it takes if I felt like I was still fighting a losing battle and he wasn't doing what I'd asked I'd look into a separation. Then I'd already have the paperwork ready to go to the other assistance programs and know what I was looking at getting into alone. That's just me though...

[crazyms]

Oh another thing I just wanted to throw in here... sometimes a separation is what it takes for some changes to be made. It's not ideal but sometimes that 'breaking point' finally gets through their thick heads. My dh and I have separated before. I reached a breaking point and he wasn't listening so I left. It took that for him to get the picture and start working on our problems. We kept contact and he saw the kids often, he'd been gone so much before I left they didn't really notice, and we finally started to work through it all. We're back together now and things are great but it took a while to get things worked out and the separation was needed to get it through his stubborn head. I'm not suggesting that you leave your dh necessarily but just wanted to give another side to it. Preparing for a divorce like drawing up papers might be enough without the actual separation to make an impact. Just something to think about if it gets that bad and you think it may be needed.

[Montana Mom]

I sure do understand not wanting to be on public assistance, but your children need to have heathy food and a mom and not suffer more because of their father's actions.  Most of the programs take a couple weeks to a month to go into effect and you'd want to be ready if you are considering separation.  The housing programs have a 6 month to several year waiting list you would want to get on asap.  Housing program does not matter if you are married or not.  When my xh was sliding downhill I got us all into housing so my little family would not be out on the street,unfortunately he never got better but after the divorce me and the kids were safe at least.  You are pissed and resentful toward your husband, understandably, but you have to have a game plan for your kids sake.

Others may disagree, but I think that not even trying like that is a form of abuse and control.  You are so stressed and he is NOT concerned.  He is happy with the way things are, its working for him in some way.  While its possible he is depressed, its important to think about what he was like before and see if this is just an escalation of his usual self or a strange new thing.  Find a way to break the video machine, thats a lot of electricity on your bill that he is wasting.  ETA: better yet pawn the dang thing to pay the bills.

ETA again, if you get on food stamps at least in my state they will actually help people find jobs/place them.  On the chance that DH really is just depressed that could be a plus for him.  And (((hugs))) again.

[D_McG]

It would be ultimatum time for sure.  

[Oh the Irony]

I think it would be for me...but that is really easy to say when you are not in that position.

As someone else pointed out, he is not showing any care or concern for you. It would be a bit different if he was at least doing more around the house.

I would be inclined to keep it simple. I would express your thoughts one more time using non-violent communication: I feel xxx when we are so strapped for cash and you don't look for a job. If you don't look for and accept a job within <reasonable period of time> then I will look at my alternatives. My bottom line is that this family needs you to work. 

I would keep the time period within 2-3 months. I would not look for a job for him or do his applications. You are looking for him to be a grown-up.

A great book is Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay. It lays out all these scenarios about what can happen and how big the issues are. You feel hurt and betrayed--and he is doing nothing to help you.

And I would go ahead and get foodstamps if you can. People in all kind of circumstances get them. You could then attempt to save a few bucks a month.

And you need to consider if you keep this as the status quo, and then end up divorcing years down the road, you could end up paying him CS and spousal.

[motherhendoula]

Playing videos games all day long can be an addiction.  For me, this behavior IS  deal breaker.  Perhaps if he knew you had filed for divorce/separation - or just took the kids and moved into an apt you could afford, he would meet his 'rock bottom' quicker.  Like having the video game control in his hands when the bank forecloses on the house....

Its so scary to make that kind of a move with small children.  Mine were 6 and 3 when i left their father, and moved into a one bedroom apt.  I was working three jobs - i got no CS from my 'addicted to new CD's" ex husband.  I felt so ashamed i couldnt have nice things for my kids, but i no longer feel that way.  When i look back at it, i know that i did the best thing for my kids.  They were fed, (lots of pasta!) they had a roof over their heads (a small one) and we spent looong afternoons at the public library.

Its a tough spot to be in, i feel for you, but really - how long can this go on? 

[PenelopeJune]

Thank you all for the advice. I'm re-reading and absorbing.

We are currently renting from my MIL, and it's affordable. I think if anything, the kids and I would stay here. There is no public housing in my town, and I do not want to move out of town because my job is here. The additional cost in gas would be probably more than I would save on rent, anyway.

We've already had our house foreclosed on. He was working two jobs back then (he didn't want me to work because he didn't want to be a stay at home dad) but he was still skipping a lot of work in the job that he eventually got fired from.

 

And you need to consider if you keep this as the status quo, and then end up divorcing years down the road, you could end up paying him CS and spousal. 

OMG. Uh...I don't like the sound of that. That is ridiculous.

 I would keep the time period within 2-3 months. I would not look for a job for him or do his applications. You are looking for him to be a grown-up 

Yes, I am done with that. He told me a few days ago that he would call back and see if the bus driver job is still available. He hasn't done it yet, and I'm not nagging him to do it. He DOES need to be a grown up. I'm tired of being his mother.

I feel kind of like he's emotionally manipulating me. I'm not sure if he even knows that's what he's doing. Whenever I've talked to him, he ends up making ME feel bad and guilty about what I've said. And NOTHING I have said has been mean or unreasonable. I've been ridiculously calm and even-headed about all this. I'm more hurt and disapointed than angry. One of the things was that I said that I felt that he didn't want to be a part of our family anymore, it crushed his feelings. He made me feel like an absolute jerk for expressing that thought.

I made up a list of things that I need. It wasn't an accusatory list, but included items like, "I want to not have to worry about how to buy groceries" and "I need more help around the house" and "I want to have a mutual long term goal" and things like that. I didn't think there was any way he could argue with some of my wants (because he's ALWAYS asking me what I want) but he found a way to argue about every point. He acted as though we were doing the best we could, and that our struggle to buy groceries is completely out of our control. Of course, this was the day after he'd turned down the job, although I didn't find out for another three days.

This can't go on much longer. And, I'm kind of afraid that no matter what he ends up doing, I can't unknow some of the stuff I now know about him. He's not acting like an adult, and I don't know what it's going to take for him to start acting like one.

[Ldavis24]

Oh wow, reading this reminded me of my own journey with DH over the past several years.

I won't get into it completely as it would take forever and I don't want to take away from your thread but at one point in my relationship with DH (before marriage or DD) I found out one day that for nearly a year he had been skipping work 4 to 5 days out of a 7 day week (he only needed to work 5 days a week). He literally wasn't working at all except maybe 6 hours a week and I found out he also was lying to me. He would get up every day with me we'd both leave for work, he'd circle the block and come back to the house. Then when I would come home he would always be there just before me taking his work boots off and saying what a long day at the job he'd had. This is when I was working 5 to 6 days a week every single week.

This broke my heart when I found out, the extent and sophistication of the lies he'd been telling for nearly a year were devastating and humiliating. 

We are still together though and the better for it.

I would not say your situation was a deal breaker. I have been there (before kids granted) and even now DH still is not a great worker (he works with his father so it's easy for him to skip). He is miles above where he used to be but it is still frustrating. I am a SAHM and we do get some state aid. I guess I don't feel guilty about it because one of my top priorities is feeding DD as healthy as possible and that can be expensive although we practically live at the farmer's markets in the summer and food stamps (which we receive) are often not accepted. 

Anyway, as far as being a deal breaker. The only way I broke through to DH was to literally pack my bags and calmly explain to him that I wasn't separating from him in the sense that our relationship was over. I just COULD NOT stay with him if he could not contribute to our lives. I still loved him and had no intentions of breaking up with him (not married yet). I just couldn't be with him until he pulled it together. It was a really hard time, we had some major major discussions and it has taken me a very long time to get over the lies he told. 

The thing is, DH got it and really listened to me and I know he truly felt horrible for what he had done. He still feels horrible and guilty about it. 

I just want you to know that it if you can really make DH see how serious you are about it and from that he can really pull it together then obviously it isn't worth walking away.

I just hope you can find a resolution either way, it is an incredibly difficult way to live and you deserve better.

[Goodmom2008]

You have another issue that you need to find a way around.  And that is that if you do split, he could end up with custody and you pay him child support and possibly spousal support.  He's not working full-time so he can claim that he is the primary caregiver, even if he isn't.  If I were you, I would start keeping a journal of all the things you do for your kids.  If you are the one who takes them to the doctor, put it in the journal every time you do. 

I would also sit your husband down and tell him that he has no choice but to get a job as you will no longer work two jobs.  It's one thing if the two of you decided together that you would work and he would stay home with the kids, it's another when he's the only one who is making that choice. 

Although, in my opinion and experience, once the marriage has reached the point of ultimatums, it's over.   Another thing you can do is ask your husband if he is willing to go to counseling, both individual and joint. 

[josybear]

when i was 8 months pregnant with ds2 i was working two jobs. my older boy had life-threatening health issues. my ex was in school. well, i thought he was, anyways. he actually dropped out without telling me and lied to me for as long as he could before i found out. when i found out i told him to go get a job. he said, and i quote: "i don't need to work. you work".

his attitude souns like it exactly matches your partner's.

that was the breaking point for me. i needed a partner, not an overgrown child with entitlement issues. i didn't leave for two years ago. his predatory helplessness wasn't abuse. he made me miserable, but i was far, far better off than many women i knew. so instead i planned, hid money, and bided my ime until i coud leave and be in a good situation. there was no way i'd stay forever, but it wasn't an emergency situation, you know?

what i'm saying is get out, but when it's a good time. don't throw yourself into economic chaos to escape economic & relational chaos.

[2lilsweetfoxes]

Originally Posted by Goodmom2008 

You have another issue that you need to find a way around.  And that is that if you do split, he could end up with custody and you pay him child support and possibly spousal support.  He's not working full-time so he can claim that he is the primary caregiver, even if he isn't.  If I were you, I would start keeping a journal of all the things you do for your kids.  If you are the one who takes them to the doctor, put it in the journal every time you do. 

I would also sit your husband down and tell him that he has no choice but to get a job as you will no longer work two jobs.  It's one thing if the two of you decided together that you would work and he would stay home with the kids, it's another when he's the only one who is making that choice. 

Although, in my opinion and experience, once the marriage has reached the point of ultimatums, it's over.   Another thing you can do is ask your husband if he is willing to go to counseling, both individual and joint. 

Italicized:  What's really fun is when you plan to take your child to the doctor and then your boss says, "Well, your husband doesn't work, so he can handle it.  I need you at the office for xyz."  My husband has been the SAHP for the past 7 years.  Six years and two, almost three later this month re-enlistments longer than our agreement. Until my boss said the above (and threatened me with administrative separation due to parenthood two or three years ago), I handled all the appointments.   Now my husband does the majority of them.  I only get to go if either I'm off or two appointments are scheduled at the same time.  I could see that coming back to bite me in the rear should we or I decide our marriage is over.

[PenelopeJune]

 

Although, in my opinion and experience, once the marriage has reached the point of ultimatums, it's over.   Another thing you can do is ask your husband if he is willing to go to counseling, both individual and joint.  

Ugh, I agree with you. But it's kind of a catch 22: say nothing, stew about it while he lazes about, and the marriage is over. Put up an ultimatum, and the marriage is over.

Sadly, counceling is out, because there is no way we can afford it. A religious counceler is out, also.

I will absolutely start a journal, thank you so much for that suggestion.

josybear, I'm sorry you were in that same position. He threw at me the other day, "YOU could make more money, you know."

And you are right, it's not something I should jump into. I need to have at least SOME savings built up. I'm not quite sure how to get started on that. Perhaps if we get a good tax refund I can stash some of it away.

[blessingscome]

Originally Posted by PenelopeJune 

I feel kind of like he's emotionally manipulating me. I'm not sure if he even knows that's what he's doing. Whenever I've talked to him, he ends up making ME feel bad and guilty about what I've said. And NOTHING I have said has been mean or unreasonable. I've been ridiculously calm and even-headed about all this. I'm more hurt and disapointed than angry. One of the things was that I said that I felt that he didn't want to be a part of our family anymore, it crushed his feelings. He made me feel like an absolute jerk for expressing that thought.

I made up a list of things that I need. It wasn't an accusatory list, but included items like, "I want to not have to worry about how to buy groceries" and "I need more help around the house" and "I want to have a mutual long term goal" and things like that. I didn't think there was any way he could argue with some of my wants (because he's ALWAYS asking me what I want) but he found a way to argue about every point. He acted as though we were doing the best we could, and that our struggle to buy groceries is completely out of our control. Of course, this was the day after he'd turned down the job, although I didn't find out for another three days.

This can't go on much longer. And, I'm kind of afraid that no matter what he ends up doing, I can't unknow some of the stuff I now know about him. He's not acting like an adult, and I don't know what it's going to take for him to start acting like one.

This is the part that bothers me most. He's depleting the family income (is he buying more video games still?), not contributing to the family - being helpful around the house would be helping, not contributing to the income, capable of all of the above (in other words, he's capable of helping instead of being a drain) and somehow is blaming you for feeling frustrated?

Um, no.  The not working... that's not a dealbreaker. The lying - possibly.  The blaming you when he knew that he had just turned down a job and you were working and maintaining the house and family and giving every part of yourself - physically, mentally and emotionally - that's the deal breaker.

It may not be overtly abusive but that's taking advantage of you in a big way.  Not only is he taking advantage of you, he's also guilt tripping you for trying to change the status quo of your relationship to one that is more balanced.  Not OK.