9 yr old flirting/ chatting with men online

[frugalmum]

Maybe some of you recall my other thread about my 9 yr old "drama queen" (she proudly calls herself that!).  She is very emotionally volatile and we were having the worst time with her about 5-6 months ago.  She was constantly throwing screaming, hysterical fits, threatening to call the police and claim we are abusing her, threatening to jump out a window, threatening to stab herself with knives, insulting and berating me and her siblings.  Well I finally put my foot down and sternly but calmly set very clear limits on what was acceptable and what wasn't, and what the consequences would be if she crossed the line (24 hr loss of computer use-- a big deal around here), and that even if she doesn't feel it, she does have control over her behavior.  It took about a month of daily, very very strict sticking to my word and not giving into her screaming fits, but she has improved.  It's gone from a "10" on a 1-10 scale of severity to a "6" or "7" at its worse and the outbursts are less frequent, and (for now anyway) she no longer makes violent threats against herself or us. 

About 2 weeks ago we caught her chatting in a very flirty way with guys online-- she was lying to these men saying she is 22 and manages a beauty salon!    I was floored!  One, because we are very strict about internet usage and I thought we were being vigilant, and two, because she has lived a very sheltered life, never seen a movie beyond PG, my DH and I have a very stable relationship, she has never been exposed to anything disturbing or adult except maybe a few PG-13 comic books.  So I was amazed she would even know how to be so coy and flirty (I read the chat logs and she really did sound like an adult woman!).

She was chatting with these guys through a video game that we let her use.  We always turn off the chat channels when our kids play this game but she turned them back on.  I sat down and explained to her that these men were much older than her, and would she go up to a grown man on the street acting like that?  She seemed to understand what I was trying to explain and she promised not to do it again.  I had my oldest son check the chat settings before she played this game after that point to make sure the channels were off.

Well today we caught her at it again which I think means she never really stopped!  We are very vigilant about her internet/ computer use so she was being VERY sneaky about this and managed to hide it not just from DH and myself but all her siblings.  She was having a very flirty conversation with a guy with an x-rated name.  I don't know how much she really understands in terms of the sexuality aspect but she is very good at acting cute and flirty and was totally enticing this guy. 

So I told her-- she is banned from the game for a week and if I catch her chatting again, that's it, she's not using that game again.  I can't believe this is from a 9 year old!  My 12 year old daughter would not even know what the word "flirt" means. 

I am thinking, though, that she simply cannot be trusted around the computer and that I should perhaps stop all internet access for her entirely.  There are so many predators and sick people online who would pounce on someone like her.  I'm wondering if it's even worth it to let her have internet access while we are "vigilant" which I thought we already were.  The problem is she would be the only in the child house barred from internet access, as my other kids use the internet quite a bit and have been 100% trustworthy and cautious online.  I don't want her to feel like even more of a black sheep than she already does.

[whatsnextmom]

I say this cautiously. Please don't get angry. Is it remotely possible she's been a victim of sexual abuse? The acting out, the online flirting with older men.... these are the sorts of things that young children who are vicitims do to try to make sense of what happened to them. Well, I don't know about the online thing but I know they often re-inact what happened to them with other children and it is very odd that she keeps seeking this sort of attention at her age. Is their anyone who has access to her?  How about her friends? Like I said, victims tend to act things out with other children. Maybe one of her friends experienced something and has been talking or showing things to your DD?

Certainly, deny her online access unless directly supervised for awhile. I'm rarely one to reccomend therapy but in this case, it could really help to have an outside source talk to her and try to help you figure out what is going on.

Hugs to you and the family. I know I'd be pretty freaked out if I found my 13-year-old chatting with older men like this. I don't know what I'd do if it were a 9-year-old!

[mtiger]

I have to agree that counseling is imperative at this point. You need to know where this is coming from. I would, frankly, cut any and all computer use in your home by anyone but you and Dad unless actively supervised by an adult. That means by you or Dad. Not siblings or anyone else. All cables are disconnected and stay with an adult otherwise.

[waiting2bemommy]

This is very scary. Please remove internet access from your home. Take the cables to bed with you at night, she may very well be accessing the internet after you are asleep. And definitely absolutely et her some counseling. The internet chatroom thing can spiral out of control incredibly fast.

My younger "sister" (not by blood but I consider her such) started doing this shortly after she was molested by a cousin (about 11 yrs old). I tried over and over again to help her in different ways, told her parents as well and I can't say for sure that it was the molestation that triggered the behavior, but she seems drawn to it in a way that she can't help. She is also prone to screaming hysterical fits and also considers herself a drama queen. Her mother took her to counseling but arranged things in such a way that my sister never really felt comfortable with the 1st therapist. They took her to another and she was able to dupe the therapist into believing what she wanted her to believe (she told me herself that she had manipulated the therapist so that the therapist would convince her mother to let her have internet in her room.) The last I knew (we haven't had contact for over a year) her parents had taken to burying their heads in the sand. She is DYING to be promiscuous, and the only reason she hasn't is because she is homeschooled and basically on lockdown 24/7. She actually arranged to lose her virginity in the family bathroom at a walmart, while her mother was shopping, but it didn't work out. She was still last I knew talking to multiple men online, receiving money from 3 of them on secret debit cards that she had obtained under a false name, and had resorted to stealing from her mother to buy airtime on her two secret cellphones for "sexting" and picture mail. She had actually almost been kidnapped when she took her father's car (at 14 yrs old) and drove to a nearby shopping center where she was meeting up with a man from online who supposedly was going to whisk her away on an airplane. By a stroke of luck, her grandmother just happened to be shopping there that day, saw her and stopped her in time. She could have been dead.

It was very disturbing to see all this happen to a bright, sweet, beautiful young girl. I know that even if she gets her act together, years of late nights talking to and believing in sleazy men 20 yrs her senior is bound to have an effect on her. PLease protect your daughter no matter what it takes.

[Mammajamma]

I agree with whatsnextmom's idea. That was the first thing that I thought of actually after reading the original post, it sounds to me like the child has encountered or been exposed to some sort of sexual abuse. I hope that you can get some help for your daughter but I would definitely restrict all access to the internet from all of the children- without direct supervision. This situation is very dangerous for your daughter to be in and she is further harming herself by pursuing these sorts of encounters with men online- not to mention it is putting your entire family in harm's way, pedophiles will go to all sorts of extents to pursue a victim. What stuck out to me is that the OP's twelve yr old daughter would not know what the meaning of flirt meant but the nine yr old was actually behaving in a much more sexually advanced or knowledgeable way ( about flirtation etc). This is not  a positive thing- I would be if my eight year old was doing this sort of thing. OP I am sending s your way.

[catfood]

frugalmum, something is very wrong.  She should not be allowed internet access or games without you sitting right there watching her every move.  I second counseling because it's really clear that something serious has happened to her.

[Drummer's Wife]

I agree that something is going on. I would seek help immediately. None of that is normal for a 9 yr old (besides maybe throwing the occasional fit - but not to the extent of threatening the things that your DD has). The Internet chat is just nuts, and I don't mean to sound rude - it's just shocking to me. I have a 9 yr old, and unlike your DD she has not been sheltered in the things she's heard and seen over time; she's actually a pretty aware kid. BUT, I can't imagine her chatting that way with grown men. No way, no how. I know it seems like a lot of young kids are growing up faster in some ways these days, but that is just really extreme... making me think something is up. Even if she was just reaching/acting out for attention, that's not within the normal realm at her age.

Sorry this is happening. Hope you get her some help and find out what's going on.

[Linda on the move]

I agree with the others.

Your DD needs to be in counseling. Something is seriously wrong and this is far more than a discipline problem.

I also don't understand why she has any internet access at all. It would be completely blocked in my house at this point, and it would stay that way for the foreseeable future. Until we got to the bottom of what was going on in therapy.

The internet is just a symptom, and blocking makes her a little safer. However, she is at high risk for very dangerous behavior in other ways. Something is wrong.

[Kirsten]

Where is the computer located?  It should be right in the kitchen/family room/wherever is most centrally located.  It should definitely not be anywhere with a door.  Ours is at the kitchen desk - anyone can see what you are doing from two different rooms.  I don't think restricting the other kids' computer use/time is fair when they have followed the rules.  I agree with the idea of taking the keyboard or a wire to bed with you so the computer isn't usable. 

I would be coming down on this like a ton of bricks; it is a safety issue.  She is too young to understand the risks of what could happen.  Can I ask what game it is?  Why are adult men on a kids' game - or why is your kid on an adult gaming site?  She is being pretty savvy/sneaky for a nine year old who hasn't seen (to your knowledge) anything worse than PG.  I think counseling is in order too.  How stressful - I'm sorry...

[Altair]

Of course as a parent, I would respond immediately and strongly.

But, as a child, I did the same thing.  When I was 9-10 the Internet wasn't around yet, but local BBS could be dialed into (before the days of AOL or Prodigy).  I was really, really explicit and beyond flirty on there with men much older than me who thought I was older.  I wasn't just flirting, it was online sex.  Stuff I picked up from schools/friends/looking at adult books/magazines in bookstores when no one was looking.  And I was your typical straight A G&T "innocent" little girl!  Just to say that there is a CHANCE that it is just exploration/rebellion. 

Now back then my parents didn't even know that connecting the phone line to the computer meant you could communicate with others.  So they had no clue and there was no way to stop me.  But as a parent now I'd do everything in my power to stop it. 

[sebandg'smama]

I really really recommend the book Hold Onto Your Kids: Why Parents matter more than Peers.

"http://www.amazon.com/Hold-Your-Kids-Parents-Matter/dp/0375760288/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297261952&sr=8-1"

-Melanie

[journeymom]

She's only nine years old.

Nine years old and she was throwing screaming, hysterical fits, threatened to tell the police you were abusing her, threatened to jump out a window, threatened to stab herself with knives, insulted and berated her family.  That's not just being a drama queen.  This alone, not even counting the flirting with men online, would cause me to get professional intervention for my daughter. I mean, I'm glad you were able to work with her and she calmed down some, that's a really good sign.  But this requires a higher level of intervention, immediately. 

I completely agree with Linda, your internet situation here is just another symptom of a deeper issue that needs addressing. Yes, take away the internet access, but don't get side-tracked by it.  I urge you to find an experienced, well-regarded child and family therapist, someone who meet with you both together and your daughter alone. 

If she were older, maybe 12, I'd say the 'drama queen' thing, throwing fits, was just normal, bothersome age behavior.  But she's only nine years old. Her behavior seems pretty exceptional. 

The good news is that she's only nine years old!  Get her help now, so she can be in a healthier, stronger place before she enters her teen years with all the attending challenges that come with. 

Please act now, like today.  I wish you the very best.

[stik]

Nine years old and she was throwing screaming, hysterical fits, threatened to tell the police you were abusing her, threatened to jump out a window, threatened to stab herself with knives, insulted and berated her family.  That's not just being a drama queen.  This alone, not even counting the flirting with men online, would cause me to get professional intervention for my daughter. I mean, I'm glad you were able to work with her and she calmed down some, that's a really good sign.  But this requires a higher level of intervention, immediately. 

I wanted to emphasize journeymom's point here.  All kids go through tough times, but some of the behaviors you describe aren't normal for any age.  I'm especially concerned about the threats of self-harm.  That kind of behavior is very dangerous - it can be a sign of a serious mental-health issue, or it can be attention-seeking, and in both cases, it can quickly escalate to a much more dangerous level.  Meanwhile, it's terrifying to your other kids (and probably to your dd herself).  Even if the threats of self-harm are not continuing, getting professional help for your dd would be a good idea.  It sounds like she works really hard to control her surroundings.  A good therapist can help her work on positive ways to fulfill that need, and good therapists often have long waiting lists.

[ell]

I'm sorry Frugalmum. This must be really difficult.

However, your post sends up some *serious* red flags for me. The acting out in violent ways plus the flirtation and sexual talk.. those are symptoms of something much more serious than simple rebellion. Your daughter needs intervention by a professional, and right now.

[savithny]

I agree with all the above posters re: this is something that I would seek serious professional help about.

But on top of that:  if this video game is on a console, I would unhook the console from the internet, period.   The internet component of most console games is not mandatory, and the parental controls on most consoles are weak at best.   

I would get and install net-nannying software and use it on all child accounts, even the children who have supposedly been more trustworthy.  I would change the password on your wireless router, if you have one, and make sure the kids don't know it.  I would block any problematic websites at the level of the router so no one in the house can access them.  Just because you haven't seen the 12 year old participating doesn't mean she either hasn't done it herself or hasn't done it with the nine year old.

If it were me, the game in question would be gone -- not just from the 9yo, but from the house.  Open chat options (as opposed to the very scripted chat options on kid sites like Webkins, where they can only pick from a series of canned phrases) shouldn't really be part of any game that a 9yo is playing.

[bri276]

Not only would I completely ban her from the internet (and get the computer in a public space, and put heavy parental controls on) I wouldn't allow her over any friend's houses until this is resolved. She could put herself and her friends in danger if she's anywhere near a computer. If you don't homeschool, let the teachers know there is a problem as well. Anywhere there are computers, she needs constant supervision to make sure she's nowhere near them, and hopefully you can find a good therapist. This is very scary, I hope somehow you can get through to her how dangerous this is, but until then no access to the internet.

[GoBecGo]

nak

she sounds like a very very angry and confused little girl.  i would strongly suspect she has been molested.  (i say this as a SA survivor who displayed similar behaviour at the same age)

she needs professional help, as soon as possible.

[savithny]

Thinking more on this, OP: 

Games designed for kids tend to have built-in controls to prevent this, by preventing user-generated text from being exchanged with strangers. The games my kids have that allow between-player talking all require two users who want to visit each other's games or chat to first share their game code in person or via email (so they have to know someone IRL to share the info with).Other things my kids do online have special chat modes in which they can choose what they want to say from a pick-list of possible communication ("Hi!" "Are you having fun? Want to go play bingo?").  

A game that allows an x-rated username and allows players to chat freely with whoever is online about anythign they want is already a game that is not kidcentric.   Since you say you've limited her to PG movies and media, I'd be interested to know what this game is rated, that it would be allowing X-rated names and real-time chat.

[Lakeeffectsnow]

Add me to the previous posters.  It sounds from your post that your daughter has issues that go beyond internet use and flirting.  Please get her professional help.  I see many red flags in your post.

[Lisa1970]

I know you say she has a protective home environment, but it really comes off, said in the nicest way possible, that perhaps mom and dad are a little naive. She should not be on the internet at all. Not just grounded for a week. She should not be back on. Not in a week, or a month, or whenever. NOT. I am actually a bit shocked to find a 1 weeks grounding for such huge horrible behavior. Has she been allowed to play this game during the weeks of the problems you have been having with her? I am always puzzled when a parent talks about these sorts of problems, but then admits the child has internet, cell phones, etc. The internet is not PG. I let my children on them as teenagers, an online game, and even when the chat feature was turned off, others could still send messages and follow her and indicate they wanted to chat. She needs to not be online AT ALL.

You need to start by immediately cutting off all internet until she is much much older. Then, since things seem to be extreme, you might want to consult a child therapist. I would actually have her evaluated by a neuropsych. It sounds like there is a lot more going on. Your insurance should cover the neuropsychologist evaluation. If it does not, then if you PM me, I can look to see what other resources I know of. You will want to call right away because there are usually waiting lists at these places. When my son was evaluated (in his case, he has autism spectrum disorder, but they deal with a lot more than just that) it took almost a year on the waiting list.

Does she have a phone of her own? If so, you better check that out too and even take it away until you sort all this out. With no access to the internet, she won't be on email so that should not be an issue either.