Tandem nursing is not working.

[Pirogi]

My daughter is 3.5, and my son will be 4 weeks on Thursday.  My daughter is still nursing, and it has become a huge struggle for me, to the point where it is hurting our relationship.  I don't know what to do.

She night-weaned on her own about halfway through the pregnancy, when my milk went away.  She dry-nursed, and then nursed colostrum, for the remainder of the pregnancy, usually only upon waking and before bed at night.  I didn't want her to wean because of the pregnancy.  I would tell her that when the baby comes, there would be lots of milk and she and the baby could nurse together.  I was looking forward to tandem nursing.  I would take her with me to the new moms' breastfeeding meetings before the baby was born, and she would nurse there.  She was the oldest by far (like, by 2 years), but it was completely fine for both of us.

Now that my son has been born, I have been increasingly frustrated when she nurses.  Sometimes I get angry, to the point where images of throwing something across the room come into my head.  It physically hurts me when she nurses.  No matter what I do, we can't find a comfortable position.  It always pulls or pinches, or just the feeling of let-down hurts and makes me furious.  I sometimes end up yelling at her, or telling her to stop (after which she whines and cries, which makes me even angrier).  Sometimes I feel guilty about telling her to stop, so I don't, but she never stops on her own.  She has never in the four weeks since my son was born stopped nursing on her own.  That's usually when I reach my breaking point and too roughly make her stop.  Always, within a couple of minutes after she stops, I am racked with guilt over what I said, or what I did, or just over my thoughts and feelings that I didn't want her to nurse.  Our nursing sessions ALWAYS end on a bad note, either with her being whiny and upset (and me angry about that), or with me being angry (and her being emotionally hurt/crying).

I know there is enough milk for both nurslings, actually that is one reason I want to continue nursing my older child.  I am home on maternity leave now (which gives my older child more opportunities to ask to nurse), but when I return to work I want to have plenty of milk to pump and freeze, since I will likely have to travel some for my job.  I like that there is a more experienced nursling to help me if I get engorged.  I know that it is important to her to be able to continue, and I want to fill that need.  I don’t want her to feel neglected or jealous, and nursing helps me meet her needs in that way.  I know that when I am away during the work day, frequency will naturally decrease and some of these problems will go away. 

I also am scared that some of my frustration with her nursing will carry over into the nursing relationship with my new baby.  I am afraid that it will start to hurt, or I will start to get angry with him too.  I feel like much of my time and energy is “used up” in arguing with my daughter, or in trying to get comfortable when she nurses, or in trying to talk to her and explain how to nurse more gently, or in crying and feeling bad after another bad nursing session with her, etc etc.  I feel like he deserves to have the same attention as an infant that she had.  I feel like right now he isn’t getting that.

Intellectually, I want to just “tough it out” until I return to work in about four weeks.  But I also don’t want to have these drama-filled, emotionally upsetting nursing sessions with my daughter until then.  I feel guilty in limiting the time of a session (counting to 20, etc) or in limiting the number of times she can nurse in a day (only morning and night, etc).  I just wish I could nurse them both happily.  I feel like right now I am failing both of my children.

[Treece]

I really don't remember the first weeks of tandem nursing my now 1 yo and 3 yo. I do remember that I thought my then 2 yo would wean when the 1 yo had been in the hospital for 10 days, and hadn't nursed for 8. Nope. I don't remember it really being painful. BUT

Now he is 3 yo and we are experiencing what you are describing. I get upset because his stronger latch causes cramping. This leads me down the same very dark road you are describing. I really get upset with him, and it really seems like while I am cramping he won't stop nursing without my intervention. I know that post partum I am really crampy. I don't know if this helps any. But what I am trying to get across is that in my case there is a physical reason I get upset with him, it may somewhat correlate.

I wish you the best. If this doesn't seem right, toss it out the window.

[HappyMommy2]

Originally Posted by Pirogi 

I feel guilty in limiting the time of a session (counting to 20, etc) or in limiting the number of times she can nurse in a day (only morning and night, etc).  I just wish I could nurse them both happily.  I feel like right now I am failing both of my children.

Throw the guilt out the window!!

You are not failing either child, you are doing a wonderful thing!!

I am in your same situation.  DD1 is 3.5 and DD2 is 4 weeks. However - tandem nursing is working for me.  As you mention, it is really nice to have somebody who is really great at nursing when my boobies are giant, hard, and too full of milk!!

I think it is working for me, because when I feel "the ick" factor, I tell DD1 that I am going to count to ten, and then I do it.  I also limit her to her usual morning, afternoon, and bedtime nursing sessions.  (unless she gets a bad boo-boo or soemthing where she needs some extra comfort).   DD1 happily gets plenty of milk and mama cuddles.  DD2 gets plenty of milk/cuddles too.

Your baby needs lots of your milk, and she has to come first.  So - your older nursling can deal with some limitations and boundaries. That's nature! 

Do you think you could lose the guilt, and just nurse ONE on demand?  I really think a few limitations will help with some of your frustration and resentment to older DD.

How come you can't find a comfortable position with older DD?  Was there ever a comfy position that you used in the past?  I use side lying, and sometimes I let her straddle my thigh and kind of sit-up for milkies.  Maybe you could re-read the books and try all the various positions.

Could your boobies be a little raw/ouchy from the newborn not being an experienced nurser?  Try the usual things ... lanolin or those breast pads you put in the fridge might help.

Good luck mama!

[Pirogi]

Thank you both so much!  It just helps to know that others have felt what I am feeling and that it doesn't mean I am a bad mom.  I really do feel like it is a physical thing that happens, on some level.  Before nursing my DD, I want to nurse her.  After nursing her, I wish we had a good experience and hope that the next time will be better.  But during, something switches in my brain, and things go bad very fast.  

I agree that limitations are probably the best option.  I have tried counting to limit the duration of a session but never stuck with it because I felt guilty (weird bc I never felt guilty about doing this during the pregnancy nursing sessions that hurt also but in a different way).  I will stop feeling guilty and focus on the breastmilk she does get instead of the breastmilk she doesn't.  Also, that how I feel is important too.  I don't know if I am ready yet to limit the number of sessions per day because sometimes I may want her to help with engorgement, and I don't know how to explain to her that she can only nurse when it's convenient for me.  I am actually not nursing her on demand right now ... there are plenty of times each day when I tell her no, that she has to wait.  But I can't say, only XYZ times, and then ask her outside of those times.  That would probably be confusing.

As for positions, I used to be able to nurse her in any position, any time, anywhere.  My breasts have gotten a little bigger with the new baby, and she is so big that the side-by-side/in the lap positions don't work anymore.  There is always pulling or pinching.  Side-lying is the best, although it doesn't always work either.  My son's nursing and latch doesn't hurt at all, so I don't think it is that I have some sort of breast problem.  I think it is just that her latch is so different from the new baby's and it hurts.  I have a really fast flow esp on one side anyway, but her nursing makes the milk come too fast or something, I don't know.  It doesn't feel good.  I also think I am having some sensory issues, or nursing is exacerbating them, or something.  But her chattering annoys me a lot more when I am nursing her brother than when I am not.  And when she is nursing, she very lovingly strokes or pats my breast, or my chest, arm, etc.  I have to ask her to stop.

Thanks again for your kind replies.  I was really at my wits end and needed some perspective.

[lunarlady]

Just wanted to chime in as another mom in the same boat. I actually just weaned my DD1 (4 years old) last week for exactly the issues you described. I am glad I tandemed for 5 months, but sad I didn't let her choose her weaning date. But it got to the point where every session would last hours, and I was so frustrated, annoyed, and angry about it. My usually mild mannered DH actually told me it had to stop because he was starting to feel that DD1 was abusing the relationship and taking advantage of my unwillingness to limit her. (!).

I hope things settle down for you. Good luck!

[canadiangranola]

Hi, 

I wanted to remind you of one thing. You have a four week old baby :)

Everything changes once you have two kids.

Everything. 

Is it possible that some of your guilt is b/c your "baby" isn't your "baby" anymore because there is a new one in the house? It gets directed into nursing b/c of the physical discomfort.

Please treat yourself with grace here. Cut yourself some slack. 

And then cut your little girl a bit of slack too :) You are both adjusting to a whole new way of being in the world. She needs to share her mama, and the most intimate piece of that relationship (the nursing) with a new little babe. How hard for her. My firstborn nursed more than our newborn at first. And i remember, so clearly, feeling so frustrated that I was nothing but a huge breast to him. Nothing else I could do was as helpful as offering the breast. But honestly, in spite of the frustration, I am so glad we persevered. I think had he lost that part of our relationship as a result of the new baby, that would have been really difficult for him to reconcile. That said, I also believe that the nursing relationship has to work for both of you, and if it truly doesn't, then maybe it is time to gently wean.

I agree though with other posters that suggest setting some limits for both of you that will work. She may resist at first, but as long as you are firm and gentle, she will most likely be okay with it in the end. (or, you might find that trying to restrict her nursing leads to her wanting to nurse more and more....and then you may have to rethink the solution.). I would make sure to have lots of alternatives on hand for the moments you just can't cope with nursing here. Snacks, cuddles, puzzles, books, a dance with mama, a sippy cup. Find other ways to show her she is loved and still your baby. My middle (at five) has nights where she still grieves not being the baby, and still wants me to curl her in a blanket and rock her to sleep...

I know this is rambly. Sorry. I guess mostly I just want you to recognize that when there is a new babe around, and you need to consider post partum hormones and all sorts of adjustment time  and be gentle with your mama self.

Peace, 

Anno

[averlee]

Here are a few things I've heard from other mamas that help:

Take tylenol and/or advil. It will make it hurt less. Pain and negative emotions often happen together.

Get noise reduction headphones, wear them sometimes while nursing the little one, especially if your older one can use a few signs and can understand "mommy can't hear you now".

Get involved with something else while nursing- watching TV, reading, reciting poems or lyrics in your head, anything you can do without hands that will take your focus off the sensations/emotions.

Make sure you're taking care of your health. If I'm hungry or thirsty nursing doesn't feel as good. Also I've read than anemia and low zinc or potassium can lead to discomfort while breastfeeding- eat a ton (2600-3200 calories a day for you plus two nurslings) and keep taking your prenatal vitamins.

Congrats on nursing your 2! That is really a wonderful start for both of them. I hope it gets easier soon. (Nursing a 4 week old is a lot harder than nursing a 6 month old, it won't be like this forever.)