Counting

[lactatinggirl]

DD is 23 months. I don't know how I got into this new system or if I like it, but we've started counting. I count to three and if she doesn't do what I'm telling her to, she has to go to her room. I don't leave her in her room for more than 30 seconds and she goes upstairs by herself (though often pouting and sometimes crying) and then closes the door. I ask her through the door if she's ready to calm down/stop hitting mama/stop throwing things at the dog/etc and she says yes and comes out of her room and is a happy little girl again. I think removing her from the situation helps her. 

Lately though, she doesn't even get to three, she just listens. I'm happy that she's listening to me and stopping whatever destructive behavior she's doing, but I don't feel right about counting. I like that we never yell or hit. I like that I'm feeling less frustrated with her. I just feel like I'm taking away her will or something? I don't even know why, but there's a tinge of guilt every time that I count and she "obeys" me. 

Am I over-reacting? Should I just be happy that I can get her to listen? Is this just a different form of gentle discipline or is this less gentle than it seems? I want to raise a child that doesn't need me to count at her, but realizes not to hit the dog in the first place. I know that's way too much to ask of a 2 year old, but I want to eventually get there. I want her to choose to be nice, not be forced into it. 

[rubidoux]

I don't think I'd like it either.  Not that I haven't felt like doing it from time to time with my older ds, but it doesn't seem quite right.  It doesn't seem entirely respectful to me.  

I don't tend to make almost any demands on my almost-2-yr-old, though.  I think a lot of people would think I'm terribly permissive.  I use a whole lot more of distracting and removing objects that he could get into trouble with than I do rules and directions.  If he's hitting me -- and it's out of anger or similar feeling, I would probably be trying to get to the bottom of why he's feeling like hitting and I'd be reminding him to be gentle.  But I wouldn't expect him to always remember to be gentle or even rein himself in when I tell him.  I don't think he's old enough to have the impulse control for that or to really understand why it's important.  I also would not punish him for it.  Though I think it's possible that some kids would learn "if I hit, I get a time out, so I don't want to hit," I think I'd rather do the long slow lesson of teaching him that "we don't hit because we don't want to hurt other people."  So, to me, it seems like the answer to what you should do instead is to have different expectations.  Like, it's normal for a 2 yr old to hit mama sometimes or to throw things, so it wouldn't be anything like a punishable offense.  But I am curious about what other mamas think about that.  I'm afraid I may be in a very small minority on that one.  

I'm curious about the throwing things at your dog.  We also have dogs, and then there's our other son, and us, last but not least, and we've got this crazy 23 mo old who's picking up metal thomas train cars and flinging them around the living room with joy and abandon every once in a while.  He's not trying to hurt anyone, and I feel pretty certain he would be surprised to find out that he could hurt someone that way.  But it certainly could hurt someone (amazingly, I think I'm the only one who's been hit so far, lol).  Is this the same kind of throwing that you're talking about?  Or do you think your DD is purposely aiming for your dogs?

___________

ETA:  Your little one is only 22 mos!  lol  You're getting ahead of yourself.  :)

[mom2grrls]

IMO counting just gives them longer to do what you don't want them to do.  If you want her to stop hitting the dog get up and take her hand to show her gentle touches.  Two year olds are quite impulsive and it's just too early to expect them to control it:)

[smithereens]

I think it's entirely possible to employ logical consequences for certain behaviors AND be a good teacher of right and wrong.  A one or two year-old can't be expected to reign in impulse behaviors all the time, or initially understand why certain behaviors are hurtful.  But they can learn their boundaries from firm AND loving parenting. 

My 2 year old knows he should not hit his brother.  Sometimes, however, he acts on impulse (which is, again, understandable...he is 2) and does it anyways.  My response is generally the following: 1) "We don't hit." (Teaching)  2) He has a timeout immediately (consequence for the action).  3) Discussion after the timeout: "You had a timeout because you hit your brother.  That was not nice.  He feels sad when you hit him.  Can you help him feel better? (More teaching of right and wrong, and also empathy) 4) Older brother is once again in a tender frame of mind, and gives a hug and apologizes to younger brother.  Or another simple example is with please and thank-you's.  Instead of going to either extreme (not teaching them at all vs. demanding them blindly), why not wait for the 'please' and then respond joyfully with a 'oh, it's so nice to say please!' 

My love for him is never in question during these interactions.  In my opinion, and many would disagree I'm guessing, sometimes being firm IS a loving approach.  Sometimes as parents we have to do things that don't make us feel particularly warm and fuzzy.  As adults we experience consequences for our actions.  I think it only makes sense that kids learn this too, and if it's in the safety of a loving family, even better.  All in all, I guess my strategy is to teach HOW to act, and WHY it's the healthier way to act than the other options...kindness, empathy, etc.

[ssh]

You're basically threatening and then using punishment if your DD doesn't comply. Maybe you're uncomfortable with using this type of discipline. Some people are and choose not to use punishment at all and others feel fine about using punishment. Also some people like the idea of obeying. We prefer to teach our DD how to make good choices rather than obey. We as a family have also chosen not to use punishment. Our DD is 5 now and it's working pretty well. At this point we mostly talk about why a behavior is a bad idea and what the possible consequences might be.  At your DD's age we used redirection, distraction and modeling. We also did time ins for dangerous behavior. With a time in you have your child sit with you or hold her instead of putting her somewhere by herself. A time in would also remove your DD from the situation and you could also talk about why she shouldn't do whatever. You can talk about why the forbidden thing is dangerous or just let the distraction of being with you help your child forget about the wanting to do the forbidden thing. People are right about no impulse control at that age and also counting often ends up meaning the child can continue while you count.

[skreader]

I think that we sometimes load the word "obey"  and "obedient" with a lot of emotion. In Cantonese and Mandarin, the phrase that people use which could translate as "obedient" is "teng wah" or "ting hua" which means *listen* - with the implication that someone listens and follows the words. Teaching my kids to listen and follow reasonable requests from me  (wash hands, it's time to eat; pat the kiity nicely, let's put on our shoes, it's time to leave, etc.) reduced frustration and anger on my part and made things a lot easier. I would try to be reasonable, give them time for transitions, etc. I was not a martinet or a bully and my kids did not (and do not) obey like soldiers.  We, the parents were the trusted authority, and acted authoritatively (not authoritarian).

I worked to get my kids to "listen" to me, they generally do (at 14 and 12) and it has not taken away their will.  They sometimes try to bargain, argue, or put things off.  As they get older, DH and I are letting go more. They are becoming old enough to make more of their own decisions, some of which I don't necessarily like (DS plans to quit drama club,  DD last autumn spent her pocket money on awful boots...).

I agree w/ what smithereens wrote:

"...sometimes being firm IS a loving approach.  Sometimes as parents we have to do things that don't make us feel particularly warm and fuzzy.  As adults we experience consequences for our actions.  I think it only makes sense that kids learn this too, and if it's in the safety of a loving family, even better."

[mnj77]

Counting just seems to be a really effective way to get a toddler's focus. Like op, though, I was uncomfortable with it. Maybe this is semantics, but I use "I'm going to help you get in your car seat/get down from that dangerous spot/whatever in 5, 4,3,2,1.". And then if she doesn't do it herself I gently help her. Somehow this seems like less of a threat and gives her a real choice between doing something herself or having me help. I wouldn't use this for hitting though.

[ssh]

I wasn't making a value judgement about differing discipline styles. I talked about two basic types that some people are comfortable with. A parent will be happiest and probably more effective using discipline that feels right to her. My 5 year old does listen a lot of the time and with safety issues she listens just about all of the time. I just don't drive if the carseat isn't hooked or cross the street if my DD isn't holding my hand. So a person can have firm boundaries without punishments or extolling the value of obedience or threats. It's all a matter of what parenting style you are personally comfortable with.  The OP said she felt uncomfortable so maybe part of what she's doing doesn't fit her personal parenting style. A child choosing to do be nice or gentle can happen when she is a toddler but choosing to listen because it's a good idea doesn't start happening with most kids until sometime after 3. There's just no impulse control.

[smithereens]

Ssh makes a good point that generally parents are the most effective when following a strategy that THEY are comfortable with.  I cannot tell you how many different 'suggestions' have been made to me on how to parent either directly or indirectly.  Sometimes this makes me feel insecure, as though maybe I've been way off base all along.  Well, those days when I am questioning everything are usually my worst days as a mother, and my kids can sense it.  If they feel you're confident they can trust you, and trust the way you are bringing them up.  I think moms these days are influenced by SO many different parenting methods, studies, and varying opinions that we can be tricked into feeling guilty for how we're raising our kids.  So my biggest challenge is to just be confident and avoid trying to label myself.  Am I a gentle discipliner?  A gentle parent?  A 'parent who wants to be boss' as one book suggests?  Well...maybe if I stop trying to label myself and just pay attention to what works for my kids I will be a lot happier.  My 2 1/2 year old has some sensory processing issues, and as such thrives on structure.  When I try to use the non-discipline methods he totally freaks out, so it just doesn't work for us.  Anyhoo...lactatinggirl perhaps if you don't feel comfortable counting, you could give choices instead.  Such as "be gentle with the puppy or it will be time to take a break from puppy" or something like that, and of course demonstrate over and over what 'gentle' is.

[oaktreemama]

 but I use "I'm going to help you get in your car seat/get down from that dangerous spot/whatever in 5, 4,3,2,1.". And then if she doesn't do it herself I gently help her. 

This is how I do it. I will say "I am counting to five and you can either do whatever it is yourself, or I will help you." I find it works well for us.

One thing that is non-negotiable with us is hurting or throwing things at the dog. Our dog is very gentle and sweet and it is very frightening to her. If a toy or ball is thrown at the dog it immediately goes away for the day. Hitting the dog results in being removed from the room. My son is however 33 mos so has more of an understanding. Fair treatment of the animals in our home is my hill to die on.

[Juvysen]

Originally Posted by mnj77 

Counting just seems to be a really effective way to get a toddler's focus. Like op, though, I was uncomfortable with it. Maybe this is semantics, but I use "I'm going to help you get in your car seat/get down from that dangerous spot/whatever in 5, 4,3,2,1.". And then if she doesn't do it herself I gently help her. Somehow this seems like less of a threat and gives her a real choice between doing something herself or having me help. I wouldn't use this for hitting though.

I use it this way... though I count up like... "Are you going to do it now or should I come help you?" and then if they don't answer I count to three.  Usually I don't get all the way to three, though, it just encourages them ask for help or do it on their own.

[sapphire_chan]

What does going to her room have to do with anything but going to her room? Aren't you just changing the struggle from one problem to another? If following directions is really important to you, then what I'd do at the end of the count is help her do whatever she's refusing to do.

Personally, I'd need hitting the dog to stop waaay faster than the end of a count.

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan 

What does going to her room have to do with anything but going to her room? Aren't you just changing the struggle from one problem to another? If following directions is really important to you, then what I'd do at the end of the count is help her do whatever she's refusing to do.

Personally, I'd need hitting the dog to stop waaay faster than the end of a count.

I don't think having a child go to their room has to be a struggle.  I find that it helps my dd to have a change of scenery and time in her room relaxes her and distracts her from whatever is making her act out.  She is much older though and we have talked about reasons why I might ask her to go there, a conversation that wouldn't be possible at 1.  I agree with the rest though.  I used to count to help me not freak out and to help my dd decide if she wanted to do something herself while still making it clear that there was a deadline to making the decision.  There were no consequences though.  When hurting the cat was involved I swooped in immediately and stopped it from happening.

[velochic]

I think counting has its place.  There is a time when it's not something that needs immediate attention (picking up coloring so the table can be set for dinner, for example) and it takes their attention away from what they are doing to do what needs to be done.  I think that things that hurt or can be injurious should be immediately seen to.  Counting doesn't have to be a threat, though.  You can use discipline tools gently or you can use them in a mean, spiteful way.  "I'm warning you!!!  1-2-3!!!" is way different than, "I've asked you politely twice now.  I'm going to give you one more chance to do it yourself, then I'm going to pick up your coloring.  I want to see you starting putting it away by the time I get to 3 or I will do it and put it away for the evening."   I would talk about it extensively whether it need immediate intervention or you have the time to give your kids a chance to focus on the new task.  To me counting is just a way to get them refocused.  Counting is just one way.  There are many ways to get a kid to direct their attention to the new thing that must be done (whether that is to stop pulling kitty's tail or to get their shoes on).

I also think that "time-out" is helpful when a child needs to be separated from a situation.  You don't have to send them to their room or whatever if you don't want to... you can just remove them to another place and tell them that they need a break from the activity that is causing the problem.  In general, I wouldn't make it a single place in the house (like a "time out chair"), but to just move them elsewhere and gently talk to them.  The thing about going to one's room, though, is that it's THEIR space.  I think that getting removed from a situation (that is probably as frustrating to them as it is to the parent) to go someplace familiar and cozy that they call their own can actually soften the situation and give them a chance to think.  Kids often find their "center" in their own space, so "going to your room" isn't really a punishment, but a comfortable redirection.  It's all in the delivery, though.  A parent that just yells, "GO TO YOUR ROOM!!" is a heck of a lot different than the parent that says, in a calm manner, "You need to calm down and take a breath.  Go to your room and play for a while and then we'll talk."  (And then, of course, make sure you talk.)

[LynnS6]

I've used counting without actually ever having a punishment to tie it to. I have no idea why it works, but it does (or did, I rarely use it anymore). I've never had an 'end' number or a threat at the end. I believe I said once or twice "Do not let me get to 5." My ds, ever curious, then said "what will happen if you get to 5?" "I will be really really mad." "Oh, OK."

So, it is possible to use counting 'tool' without tying it to punishments. I do think that it does help my kids focus, or maybe it lets them know that I don't intend to let this one go. It's also good for me in that it's a bit like deep breathing. It gives me something to focus on rather than yelling at my kids.