Where to draw the line?............

[lrgs]

............hopefully before I have a nervous break down and lose my mind. I hope this post doesn't get too long, I am so tired, beyond exhausted. DD is 6.5 months old now and is up constantly at night, I can barely function during the day. Some nights are okay and I'll get a couple 3-4 hour blocks of sleep (and notice I feel a lot better when this happens), unfortunately this is rare, most nights I don't get near that long and lately we've had lots of nights of nursing every 2 hours. Co-sleeping didn't work for us, if she's beside me she needs to be latched on and instead of getting more sleep, we get less. Although I may try again tonight just to see if it helps but I'm a very light sleeper, have a very hard time getting to sleep and I can't see it working. So there are many nights where I get 2-3 chunks of 1.5 hours of sleep at a time.

I can't function anymore, it's really negatively affecting my life, my family, my mood and my health. I often read on here and see people writting almost cheerfully that they just gave up sleeping for years at a time and it's like that is just expected.....anything less is subpar. I really feel like mom's needs are sometimes pushed aside and I feel guilty admitting I can't do it. Of course baby's needs are important but if I'm not doing well, I can't look after everyone else. I'm prone to depression and anxiety and this increases with lack of sleep. Right now I am exhausted to the point where I dream about walking out and going somewhere to sleep for a week straight or weaning DD so I can leave her with grandparents for the weekend so I can sleep. I probably won't do either but it's a fantasy at this point. My marriage is suffering because we're both so exhausted and run down, we are irritable and grumpy. We are sick all the time (and never used to be). I have another child to look after and this isn't fair for her, she's 3.5 and requires a lot of energy and patience. Some days drag by and I spent way more time then I'd like sitting on the couch (sometimes crying because all I want is a nap)...instead of playing with my girls I'm just watching TV and trying to make it through the day. I don't have the energy to get back into shape (something that is required for when I return to work in 5 months) and I worry about DH being so tired at work (his job is quite dangerous). We have the same job and I know I couldn't do it with this lack of sleep.........not sure how he's managing. I'm seeing a counsellor and she has reinforced how integral sleep is to well being, mood and health but on here it really seems to be down played.

I guess I'm rambling but I wonder when I have to draw the line and look after me. I'm not talking about doing CIO but something has to happen. We've hired a sleep consultant and she knows I won't do CIO but she's said some crying is going to happen because baby won't be happy when things change.(won't be crying by herself). She also knows I'm not going to nightwean. Everytime I come on this board I feel tremendous guilt because I can't live up to the ideal and I might have to sleep train my DD or else go crazy..... I really don't know what else to do.

[Hannah32]

I think you should take the advice your sleep consultant gives you and run with it. 

If you can't do the all night nursing thing, then don't. I couldn't do it either. Don't feel bad about it and don't listen to those that would try to make you feel bad about it. If you want to talk more, PM me. 

[aphel]

Originally Posted by lrgs 

 I can't look after everyone else. I'm prone to depression and anxiety and this increases with lack of sleep. Right now I am exhausted to the point where I dream about walking out and going somewhere to sleep for a week straight or weaning DD so I can leave her with grandparents for the weekend so I can sleep. I probably won't do either but it's a fantasy at this point. My marriage is suffering because we're both so exhausted and run down, we are irritable and grumpy. We are sick all the time (and never used to be). I have another child to look after and this isn't fair for her, she's 3.5 and requires a lot of energy and patience.

Where to draw the line? I think here is a good place.

I agree with the pp - you should use everything that the sleep consultant has to offer, as long as it fits within your parenting style. Yes, the baby may cry when routines are changed, but IMO that isn't CIO. 'Crying it out' implies the baby is left alone to cry in the hopes that the actual crying will help resolve, or work out, some issue.

Gently changing the baby's routine while trying to minimize upset to the baby (even if you can't eliminate it), for the benefit of your entire family, is okay. Heck, at this point, I think it's necessary.

Please don't feel guilty! You deserve to be happy and functioning and well, as much as your baby deserves to have her needs met. You may just have to meet in the middle on this one!

[elluin]

A friend lent me "The No Cry Sleep Solution" (by Elizabeth Pantley) when I felt like I was at a breaking point from lack of sleep (also when my daughter was six months... I think that was the hardest month for me sleep-wise). Some of the strategies in the book helped us get a much better night's sleep... we didn't follow through with the whole program (we didn't do sleep logs, for example), just used it until we got to a livable routine with sleep. It's easy reading; I think the author realized only exhausted parents would be reading the book!

I hope you're able to find the rest you need!

[matthia]

I honestly think that taking care of yourself is PARAMOUNT to being a good mother. Now, this is different for everyone. I take care of myself by making time for knitting and making sure to shower at least 3 times a week. Some ladies need a date night every week and a bi-monthly mani-pedi...Some, and this is crucial, NEED SLEEP!!

Now that I've said that, I have very little advice for you. You said you're worried about your husband at work, right? So I won't advise asking him to take on more. And you have a 3.5 year old. HARD!!

It won't help your nights but what about hiring a babysitter or a mother's helper for a few days a week, someone to help with the housework and play with your 3.5yo while you and baby nap? I know that naps won't totally fix things but being able to nap might help.

What about pumping or supplemeting with formula and handing the baby off to the grandparents?

I know I am uncomfortable leaving baby with others, so what about arranging to have grandma come over a few evenings a week to help you? You go to bed at 8pm, grandma stays until 11 or so, so she takes the first feeding? Or  what about getting her to come over early in the morning a few days a week so she can take over a breakfast feeding and you can sleep in a bit?

I know none of that is really helpful or good, every day solutions. I hope it gets easier for you!

[peacelove&camping]

how many times a night is she nursing? every time she wakes? honestly, my dd self-nightweaned at 6.5 months, and i'm like a new woman. we had transitioned her to her own room and crib a few weeks before, but she was still up to nurse. so one night i just stopped offering.... and she stopped waking up. i would go in and pick her up, soothe her a little bit, and then put her back down; we did that for the first couple nights after stopping feeding, and then she just stopped waking up at all. i realize it's not that easy for most people, but i would say it's worth a try.

also, when you go in to comfort and/or nurse her, are you putting her back down asleep? and how does she go down at bedtime, is that difficult or easy?

the thing that helped us immensely right around this same age was pushing her daytime feedings out to 3.5-4 hours apart. that way they learn to take in more per feeding, and can then go easily all or most of the night. it took us a couple weeks to accomplish this, we had to do it very slowly because she had been nursing much more frequently, but once we got there it made a big difference. made our days less crammed too :) also, starting right around 6.5 months it helped her sleep if i made sure she was getting enough calories from solids--i know they don't absorb much nutrition from them, but there was a big difference between the days when i blew off a meal [or three, when she got older! :) ], and the days where she got lots of grains and lots of healthy fats [like avocado and egg]. try something like avocado on toast for dinner a night or two in a row, and see if that makes a difference.

good luck! this was a very hard time for me to handle, and i only had the one  i am also prone to depression and this was very rough on me. i hope it sorts itself out soon for you.

[HonkyTonka]

Sorry you are having so much trouble. Do you have a set bedtime? A bedtime routine? These are really, really important factors in getting babe to sleep.

I would also take the advice of the sleep consultant. Seems like you have no other choice at this point since what you are doing now isn't working for your family. And don't feel guilty when you do make a change.

[whozeyermamma]

I have to say I'm in a similar spot - DS is 7 mo and also sleeps better on his own - not attached and latched - but still wants to wake at least every 2 hours. Last night it was down at 8 up again at 11, then 1 then 3, 4, 5, and 6.

I don't know if I have advice for you other than perhaps considering talking to your doc about PPD. I have to say that I'm pretty sure that my 50mgs  of Zoloft daily is keeping me from throwing myself out the window.

I think I'm going to try some of the "No Cry Sleep Solution" ideas - trying to nurse him to sleepy but not in a coma - so that perhaps at those night wakings I can nurse him and lay him down and he can settle in on his own - and maybe ask DH to come in and settle him back without nursing if it's been less than 2 hrs. I dunno - Sometimes trying something new feels so overwhelming - even though this is pretty miserable.

Be kind to yourself. Remember that this sleep deprivation is what they do to torture people. At this point, I'd admit to kidnapping the Lindberg baby and shooting JFK. The other night I was hallucinating about picking up toys and handing them to the baby. Another morning DS was chatting away in the bed next to me and my first thought was "All that noise will wake the baby!"

[whozeyermamma]

.. oh and peacelove&camping - how did you push those feedings to 3 or 4 hrs? DS wants to nurse every 2 hrs too ...

thanks!

[Dr.Worm]

You've already gotten great advice but just want to say....PLEASE DON'T FEEL GUILTY.  It makes me so sad when moms feel bad because they can't do all of the ap things...like well crap, can't do ap cause I give my baby formula; had a c-section; don't co-sleep.  Dr. Sears, who coined the term attachment parenting, says that these are only guidelines to help you get close to your baby...he says not everyone can practice all the baby b's all the time or at all(birth bonding; babywearing; breastfeeding) and he also says THE BEST PLACE FOR YOUR FAMILY TO SLEEP IS WHERE EVERYONE SLEEPS BEST.  If you are a miserable mama all day because you are exhausted from co-sleeping then it is not working for your family.  You are very loving and focused on your needs and rhe needs of your family..."martyr mothering" is no good for anyone and you get that.  Instead of feeling guilty that one aspect of ap isnt working be proud that you love your family enough to change what isn't working. 

[lrgs]

Thank you so much for all the advice and support ladies, it really means a lot and is so, so, so helpful. I was so stressed yesterday when I wrote that post and your words are great to read today. (My internet is off and on so I couldn't get back until today). I'm typing with a bit clearer head today because DD was only up at 1 and 5 to nurse and DH let me sleep in so I'm much better rested. I'll try to answer some of the questions.

elluin: I do have a copy of the The No Cry Sleep Solution, I read it with ODD and started it again this time and then abandoned it because I thought the sleep consultant would just come and fix everything for me (exhausted and wishful thinking!!!). I have used a few tricks from there so maybe I should finish it in case there is any other useful information for us.

mathia: You are right and this is something I'm coming to really understand. I have to look after myself and I'm not the type to go without sleep for extended periods of time. Thank you for your suggestions. My ODD does go to the dayhome on Thursdays so I do get a bit of a break, unfortunately the baby doesn't nap for much longer then an hour or so. Your suggestion of a mother's helper is a good one, I've thought about it (especially the other day when I really needed a nap). If things don't get better soon it's something to consider. Unfortunately I'm terrible with pumping (don't get much) so it's hard to express enough milk, I have supplemented with formula a few times in order to get a bit of a break. My Dad is great with ODD but is a bit awkward with the baby. My mom is very involved with her own stuff so she'll offer to help every so often but only when it's convenient for her. She did offer to take Ainsley (baby) overnight but I'm just not comfortable leaving her there, my mom sometimes smokes in her house, she'll stop when the girls are coming over but we all know that smell lingers! I could see if she'd be willing to come over for a feed but it's hard for her to fit us in (totally another issue!). MIL is far away but will be here for a couple days at the end of the month, thankfully she is so helpful, she'll come in and take over so I can get some rest. It's too bad she doesn't live closer.

peacelove&camping: her night nursing varies, sometimes it's every 2 hours and then sometimes it's a lot better, like last night she ate at 10, 1, 5. She woke up a couple times in between 1 and 5 but was settled with a soother. Some might think that is a lot of night waking but it was good for us! Sometimes she'll take the soother and go back to sleep and sometimes not. When she decides the soother isn't cutting it and she wants to nurse there is no way around it. She goes to bed around 7pm (ish) and goes to sleep on her own without any issue (most of the time). The other night she woke up at 8 and I knew she wasn't hungry but she could not settle without nursing, I tried rocking, walking, etc but she got so worked up and wouldn't stop crying. so I nursed and she went right back to sleep. During night feedings she'll usually fall back asleep while  feeding but wakes up when I put her back in the crib.......but she's very drowsy and goes right back to sleep. We tried avocado yesterday for the first time so maybe i'll try some on toast or pita bread today. She is currently nursing every 2-3 hours during the day........3 is the absolute max she'll go. Was it hard to space out the feedings?

HonkyTonka; Yes, we do have a set bedtime (7-7:30) and a consistent bedtime routine............we've had it in place for about 4 months now. Thankfully she goes down well at bedtime but then wakes a lot afterwards.

whoezyermama: Sorry to hear you are in the same boat as me and didn't have a good night last night.......so hard. I did have PPD with my first but this time around I really feel like it's just lack of sleep causing so much stress. I haven't ruled it out and I'm seeing a counsellor, it's something we are monitoring. I really think after I start getting some rest I'll be a lot better but it's definitely on the radar. Hope you get some rest at some point soon! Oh and you are right about the form of torture thing.......my mind is so foggy these days, I tell my dh the same stories over and over again, miss turns while driving, take vitamins and then 1 minute later forget I already took them. I don't know what I'd do if I had to WOH right now........I'd really struggle.

Dr.Worm: Words of wisdom!! Thank you so much. You are 100% right and I know I've said simillar things but it's great to be reminded.

[NicolleLynne]

Originally Posted by Dr.Worm 

You've already gotten great advice but just want to say....PLEASE DON'T FEEL GUILTY.  It makes me so sad when moms feel bad because they can't do all of the ap things...like well crap, can't do ap cause I give my baby formula; had a c-section; don't co-sleep.  Dr. Sears, who coined the term attachment parenting, says that these are only guidelines to help you get close to your baby...he says not everyone can practice all the baby b's all the time or at all(birth bonding; babywearing; breastfeeding) and he also says THE BEST PLACE FOR YOUR FAMILY TO SLEEP IS WHERE EVERYONE SLEEPS BEST.  If you are a miserable mama all day because you are exhausted from co-sleeping then it is not working for your family.  You are very loving and focused on your needs and rhe needs of your family..."martyr mothering" is no good for anyone and you get that.  Instead of feeling guilty that one aspect of ap isnt working be proud that you love your family enough to change what isn't working. 

I deeply, deeply agree with these sentiments and would also exhort you not to feel guilty about taking care of your own needs as well as your little one's. You're a family and each member's health and well being is intrinsic to being a happy and functional unit. As other posters have suggested, I would definitely consider pumping and having your DH take over one or two feedings. My DD is 8.5 months and we started doing this around 5 months. It saved my sanity. Right now I feed her around 9:00, attempt to accomplish something around my house for a couple of hours and then go to bed around 11:00. My DH gives her a bottle of EBM when she wakes between 12:00-1:00 and then I'm up with her around 5:00. I still feel somewhat sleep deprived and can definitely relate to your "sleep for a week" fantasy. I have my own dreams of a hotel room furnished with nothing but a huge, soft bed that I just fall into and sleep in for days.

Good luck Mama, be well, take care of yourself!

[peacelove&camping]

Originally Posted by whozeyermamma 

.. oh and peacelove&camping - how did you push those feedings to 3 or 4 hrs? DS wants to nurse every 2 hrs too ...

thanks!

it was kinda hard, just because she had to do it sooo gradually over a couple weeks and i felt like i was doing something wrong not being able to get her there. what i did was, at first, i started putting her back on the first boob after she finished the second. that way she took in more. then if she started getting fussy, i would try to distract her for a bit--walk her outside, give her to daddy, something to take her mind off nursing. if she got upset and had to eat, i fed her; but if she could be distracted, i knew she wasn't really that hungry, it was just habit. eventually i was able to stop the 'three-boob method' :D because, with distraction, she was able to go longer and longer between feedings, and so started taking in more on each side. then she was out to 3.5-4 hours between nursings [the "magic window"] and voila, her sleep improved!

i got this method from a sleep dvd called 'night, night: the common sense sleep solution'. it was created by a pediatrician. we didn't use all of what he has to say but i like a lot of it.

the other thing that's important to do when doing this is to tie feedings to naps. in the beginning it's hard because their feedings are still all over the place, but as you start to push her window out it gets into more of a rhythm. at your lo's age we did:

one side upon waking [to hold her over]

both sides before first nap

both sides before second nap

one side before third nap [because she'd be going to bed less than four hours later, third nap was short]

both sides before bed.

when she dropped her third nap, she kept that feeding but was able to stay awake until bedtime. and it's not a rigid routine or anything--once you settle into it, the baby starts to expect 'oh, i'm sleepy, i think i'm gonna have my breakfast and take a nap'. it's like a sleep cue.

good luck! anybody can pm me if you want for more info. our house was a *miserable* place to be until 6ish months, when we got all this in place :) just don't get caught up in thinking she *has* to do it right away, like i did   if she doesn't make it to 3 hours this time, try again next time! :)

[Laurski]

lrgs: No words of wisdom, just s.  My DD is a bit younger than yours, but a miserable sleeper, so I empathize with your situation.  I really hope you're able to discover a solution that will work for you very soon.  Take care of yourself, mama!

peacelove&camping:  Thanks for sharing your experiences with nursing and sleep.  I think once DD is a little bit older I may just try your tricks!

[peacelove&camping]

Originally Posted by Laurski 

peacelove&camping:  Thanks for sharing your experiences with nursing and sleep.  I think once DD is a little bit older I may just try your tricks!

sure thing! we struggled so much trying to find something that worked for her. she had other sleep difficulties too--wouldn't sleep in her crib at night, only napped in the wrap [ ! ], woke up lots.... it was just wonderful to have it click :) and once it did, now i can't stop sharing it whenever i get a chance 

[TreeRose]

Oh my gosh, yesterday I read this thread with sympathy... today, empathy. I was awake ALL night long. Just trying to keep her asleep. Arms flailing (hates the swaddle), nursing, trying to talk, grunting.... oh Lord I'm tired.

I'm subscribing and appreciating the tips.

Is the idea behind No Cry Sleep Solution just to help them go to sleep not attached to you? Our LO only sleeps either nursing (at night) or in a baby wrap strapped to one of us. I'm scared to try it any other way because of the screaming (like in the car for example - she screams and screams before falling asleep). SIGH.

[akat]

I just want to address the part of your post about moms who are blithe about losing out on sleep for a few years.

I'm on my 2nd child.  My first child did not sleep.  This one does sleep.  Sure, I wake up a few times a night to nurse him [usually for 5-10 minutes 2x a night plus often a solid hour somewhere in there], he has a few days here and there when he's sick or teething where I'm up quite a bit, like last night I slept 11-12, 1-3, 4-5.30, 7-9.  So maybe it feels like I'm giving up a little sleep.  But it is NOTHING like the living hell of a baby who doesn't sleep well.  That is a whole different universe.  Also this baby has NEVER gone a day without at least one nap, he naps at the same time every day, and he often naps 2-3 hours.

I suspect that most moms who say it's no big deal to give up some sleep for your baby have one like this, my second, NOT one like my first.  If I didn't experience that baby who didn't sleep I don't think I could grasp what it's really like.

[peacelove&camping]

Originally Posted by TreeRose 

Oh my gosh, yesterday I read this thread with sympathy... today, empathy. I was awake ALL night long. Just trying to keep her asleep. Arms flailing (hates the swaddle), nursing, trying to talk, grunting.... oh Lord I'm tired.

I'm subscribing and appreciating the tips.

Is the idea behind No Cry Sleep Solution just to help them go to sleep not attached to you? Our LO only sleeps either nursing (at night) or in a baby wrap strapped to one of us. I'm scared to try it any other way because of the screaming (like in the car for example - she screams and screams before falling asleep). SIGH.

this was ours to a pretty much T--napped in the wrap, slept more-or-less nursing, and screamed and never slept in the car. we got nowhere with NCSS, just so you know. we got much further with the program i mentioned earlier "night, night: the common-sense sleep solution", plus a couple tweaks i came up with onym own :)

[TreeRose]

Originally Posted by peacelove&camping 

Originally Posted by TreeRose 

Oh my gosh, yesterday I read this thread with sympathy... today, empathy. I was awake ALL night long. Just trying to keep her asleep. Arms flailing (hates the swaddle), nursing, trying to talk, grunting.... oh Lord I'm tired.

I'm subscribing and appreciating the tips.

Is the idea behind No Cry Sleep Solution just to help them go to sleep not attached to you? Our LO only sleeps either nursing (at night) or in a baby wrap strapped to one of us. I'm scared to try it any other way because of the screaming (like in the car for example - she screams and screams before falling asleep). SIGH.

this was ours to a pretty much T--napped in the wrap, slept more-or-less nursing, and screamed and never slept in the car. we got nowhere with NCSS, just so you know. we got much further with the program i mentioned earlier "night, night: the common-sense sleep solution", plus a couple tweaks i came up with onym own :)

I'm FASCINATED by your tweaked system.... so my question is how often does your LO nap? If I hold her off to 3-4 hours between nursings, the nursing doesn't come right before another nap (if that makes sense. Thank you so much for sharing your solution!

[lrgs]

Thanks ladies, I'm still reading all the words of support and the advice............I appreciate it. Hopefully the sleep consultant can come up with something.......the past couple nights have been "good".........still far from great but at least I got some sleep. I'm still tired but not to the point of not being able to function. DH and I have been trading back and forth sleeping in (he's on evening shift this week) and taking naps (so he can be rested for work). I still feel like I could fall asleep in my chair though! I think it'll take a while of sleeping to pay back this sleep debt though.