The whole thread seems bizarre; the earnest attention with which otherwise busy mamas reply to this author confuses me. I guess I know that any responses you offer him will help him in creating further work aimed at the marginalization of the natural birth community, whether he intends it to be mean-spirited or not. I don't see any reason to help him for free.
So true, I'm disengaging too.
I've had broken bones, gallstones, kidney stones, migraines, and labor pain was by far the worst pain I've ever experienced. I avoided the epidural during the first half of my labor because I was convinced the birth would mean more somehow if I went natural. I ended up getting it and my birth was awesome.
Wow, KTG, I didn't mean to offend you, nor cause you leave MDC altogether. By "fundamentally opposed to this kind of message" I meant not to epidurals, but to the idea that epidural rates are not high enough and that more women need to be convinced to get them. Here is the first line of my post:
The below, however, is probably true, and in any case the discussion does not seem to be evolving anywhere helpful.
Dr. Gilbert:
I just read through this whole thread. The one statement of yours that I find most concerning, is your contention that homebirth increases mortality risks. I am PhD-educated in a medical field, as is my husband, and we certainly know how to do our research. We read every study available and came to the very clear conclusion, based on the best designed and most recent studies, that homebirth is as safe if not safer than hospital births.
The fact that you do not know this, for me, puts your conclusions in regards to any other studies about epidural risks into question.
My first birth I wanted a "natural" birth. I toured the hospital ahead of time and asked about squatting bars, mirrors, etc. . . I told my OB I did not want an epidural. When I went to the hospital, I was put on pitocin (which my childbirth books talked about as being exactly like oxytocin--haha, they were the wrong books). My DH and I both told the nurse coming into the room that I did not want an epidural. Well, that didn't stop her from coming in every few minutes and asking, "Do you want an Epidural?", "I see you're in a lot of pain, the anesthesiologist is right next door and can give you an Epidural", "Wow, you're only 5cm, and in so much pain, I really think you should get that epidural". . .after her coming in so many times and even talking about the other patients being further along than I was and in less pain. . .I finally gave in and got that Epidural. Finally I was 10cm and told to push by the docs (squatting bar went out the window since I couldn't stand with the Epidural). Yeh, I had no pushing urge at all. Needless to say I ended up in the OR. While they were cutting me, I had an Epidural window and could feel everything (I might have screamed, things were a little fuzzy at this point). Got more epidural meds, then was finally put under General Anesthesia. Reading about women not being urged to have Epidurals makes me laugh. . . and believe me, I felt major guilt about breaking down and getting the Epidural. So, I researched birth a little more; became a doula; and had an HBAC.
treemom2, I'm so sorry to hear about your first birth experience. What you describe with the nurse coming in and offering the epidural over and over is something that I've also seen in hospitals.
This thread is fascinating to me, and I do plan on reading the book if I can find it in a library at some point, just for the sake of briefly seeing birth through different eyes. The whole premise of the book sounds foreign to me, as I'm sure it does to many here. I used self-hypnosis for my births and now teach other women to do the same using Hypnobabies. My births and the births of my students and nearly all the women I know involve well-educated, fully-prepared parents. The women I serve tend to really enjoy their births, as I did. My births were intense and there were some challenging moments, but they were also comfortable, enjoyable and downright fun for my husband and myself. I did have serious complications during my first and second births, and a precipitous third birth, but I felt completely in control of my response to everything that happened, which played a big role in my enjoyment of my births. The idea that our births could have been improved in any way by an epidural sounds absurd, given our experiences. I regularly see other couples enjoying similar births, filled with comfort and joy. Very few of them opt for any kind of pain medication. But if they do, they do so after weighing the risks and benefits and knowing they are making the most appropriate decision under the circumstances of their birth. They even have a wonderful "Change of Plans" script they can use to mentally and emotionally accept any unexpected changes to their birth. Guilt just doesn't come up in our discussions of how they feel about their births afterwards.
When I first saw the video clip and read about the book's premise, I couldn't understand what could have prompted its creation. Most women in our society get epidurals, and many of them actively work to encourage others to get them as well. I still don't entirely know what need this book fills, or why anyone would think that an increase in the number of epidurals would be viewed as necessary. Then I stopped to think about the people anesthesiologists typically serve...women who have requested an epidural for a variety of reasons. An anesthesiologist's experience of birthing women is primarily women who are suffering for any number of reasons, some of which are simply the circumstances of her baby's journey and others which may come from her birthing and preparation choices. I suppose if my experience of birthing women was to see them writhing and yelling until they got an epidural, I would tend to believe that those who don't have epidurals would benefit from having one and should be encouraged to do so. However, I still don't understand the idea that not having an epidural could be considered an additional risk. But I am willing to read the book and find out more about the mindset and experience of someone who serves women who suffer in birth. Doctor, I hope you are open-minded enough to understand that your experience of birth is not the only one. Many of us regularly see women who have very enjoyable, pleasant births without the need to accept any of the risks associated with medical interventions. I am very glad that I regularly get to see unmedicated birthing women who are empowered and happy during and after their births. If your goal is to minimize risk and improve the safety and well-being of women and babies, I trust that you are supportive and encouraging to all the low and no-intervention approaches to birth as well. My hope is that while you are clearly an expert in anesthesiology, you refrains from thinking of yourself as an expert in birth until you takes the opportunity to witness births at which your professional skills are not needed. The video and discussion here make it appear that you simply may not grasp the full range of birth experiences that women have.
I've had broken bones, gallstones, kidney stones, migraines, and labor pain was by far the worst pain I've ever experienced. I avoided the epidural during the first half of my labor because I was convinced the birth would mean more somehow if I went natural. I ended up getting it and my birth was awesome.
My gallbladder going bad and kidney stones were much, much worse than my labor pains. I'd rather have triplets than deal with either of those two medical conditions again. The kidney stone thing was so painful that I passed out. Unbelievable!
No, as I said before, I'm not convinced that epidurals are safe for the baby.. so I managed without. But my labors are quite short, so its do-able.
Dr. Gilbert:
I just read through this whole thread. The one statement of yours that I find most concerning, is your contention that homebirth increases mortality risks. I am PhD-educated in a medical field, as is my husband, and we certainly know how to do our research. We read every study available and came to the very clear conclusion, based on the best designed and most recent studies, that homebirth is as safe if not safer than hospital births.
The fact that you do not know this, for me, puts your conclusions in regards to any other studies about epidural risks into question.
i disagree about the homebirth research. unless you're in british columbia. :-)
honestly, i don't think anyone can say a clear picture has emerged yet from the homebirth literature. there is good evidence that homebirth under the right circumstances (CNM with a physician back-up, close to a major hospital) is a very reasonable choice for the right woman. but there is also evidence that neonatal mortality is higher at home. especially here in the US.
Dr. Gilbert:
I just read through this whole thread. The one statement of yours that I find most concerning, is your contention that homebirth increases mortality risks. I am PhD-educated in a medical field, as is my husband, and we certainly know how to do our research. We read every study available and came to the very clear conclusion, based on the best designed and most recent studies, that homebirth is as safe if not safer than hospital births.
The fact that you do not know this, for me, puts your conclusions in regards to any other studies about epidural risks into question.
Thank you!
Dr. Gilbert has not yet addressed this; I am excited to see a condescension-less response.
My gallbladder going bad and kidney stones were much, much worse than my labor pains. I'd rather have triplets than deal with either of those two medical conditions again. The kidney stone thing was so painful that I passed out. Unbelievable!
No, as I said before, I'm not convinced that epidurals are safe for the baby.. so I managed without. But my labors are quite short, so its do-able.
I've never been blessed with short labors. Mine are always very long and very painful. I think the pain is just worse for some people. I remember as a teen crying, shaking, rolling around on the ground over period cramps while my friends barely noticed theirs. It's not just a pain tolerance issue cause I can handle other pain ok.
With my first, I didn't have an epidural or durgs, had a very long labor and just felt like I wanted to die. I didn't feel exhilirated or any of the other feelings people get from ncb. I just felt exhausted, horrible, and out of it. With my second, I got the epidural and afterwards felt great.
I have long labors too. 27 hours and 24 hours 50 mintues. My OBGYN for my first birth and then my MW, back up OBGYN and nurse all said I have a long birth canal which may be why they are longer, but I don't know. I loved my second birth, so being long isn't a big deal to me.
I would suggest that this discussion might of gone a lot better on a site such as babycenter or the likes rather than MDC where the focus is on all natural everything. I think that for the most part this type of book will not ever be well received in this community because its not what this community stands for.
There was a discussion on this on babycenter that went a lot better than this one...because the author didn't show up to insult women who didn't share his viewpoint. The babycenter posters -- surprisingly to me -- since they are normally less "crunchy" than mothering posters, were almost 100% against this book.
I think at this point, the conversation has run it's course. I recommend if you wish to continue the discussion, you take it to PM. I think we have reached the point on this thread where nothing further will be gained but argument. I had hoped that by allowing this discussion to continue, that perhaps a good dialogue would be reached, and learning would take place on all sides. THat does not seem to be the case. I am closing this thread. Thank you for understanding.
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