Please HELP! Serious issues with 10 year old daughter. I don't know how much more I can take! :(

[NaturalMamaLama]

I'm going to give a brief background. I had my daughter when I was 16. Due to this fact and the fact that I was in an abusive relationship, we did not form an attachment like I now know we should have. We left her dad when she was 2. I met my now Husband when she was 5. She's never called him Dad and they get along better now, but they still but heads.

Over the past 2-3 months or so, she has begun to seriously irritate me. It's to the point where sometimes I wish she could live with her Dad. I don't want to hug her because I feel that her hugs are fake. How can she be so cruel to me and give me an honest hug? (I'll get to the cruelty in a moment) I truly don't even want to listen to her because everything she says and does mostly irritates me. Let me get to what she does and why I feel this way.

When she gets her way, she allows me to be happy. When the smallest thing isn't what she wants, she literally treats me like she hates me. Right now, she's screaming at me from the other room. She talks to me like I'm nothing. While I speak, if she doesn't like what I'm saying, she rolls her eyes and snaps nasty looks and interrupts me with snide remarks. She doesn't believe things that I say when it's not what she wants to hear. When I ask her to do something, even when I give her notice beforehand, she will sometimes simply say 'no, i'm not going to do it.' or 'no, i dont want to'. She's ALWAYS telling me 'thats not fair!' I hear that 5 times a day. She uses what I say against me and twists my words. She's EXTREMELY technical with things that are said and uses that against me often.

I have a 5 month old whom I am practicing gentle parenting with and I just don't know how to practice it with her when up until 2-3 months ago, when her behavior really got terrible, I was an authoritarian parent. I still am forced to be by giving consequences like grounding, taking stuff away, etc because she speaks to me like I am NOTHING and I will not spank/... I don't know how to handle it! I almost always stay calm and respectful, often asking her to speak more softly when she yells or treat me nice when she tells me that she hates me. It doesn't work. She gets louder and meaner. 

I feel terrible writing this, but I think about how much easier it would be if she wasn't here to make me feel like this. I don't want to touch her most of the time, play with her, be with her. Because she treats me like the enemy. Like her arch enemy. Like garbage. Every single day. I know it's mostly my fault. Everything that she does. We never bonded like we should have. We grew apart because I didn't pay enough attention. But HOW DO I FIX THIS? and how do I love my daughter again?

[lolar2]

You said this has been abrupt, for 2-3 months. Is she showing signs of puberty? Could it be hormones? How is her diet?

[NaturalMamaLama]

It could definitely be something to do with her hormones/puberty. I started my period when I was 10.... 7 months from how old she is now. Her diet is pretty good- we've changed our eating habits drastically within the last year. Went from eating fast food 3+ times a week to none at all, almost all organic, no sugary snack foods, very little refined sugars, etc.

I think it's a combination of hormones, the new baby (he's 5 months, I can't remember if I said that or not), and I'm just not sure what else. I just feel so terrible... how can a Mother not be completely in love with her child??? I look at the bond I have with my new baby and it's deeper than my bond with her. It makes me so sad! And don't get me wrong... I love her. When she's not being mean or having an attitude, she's a pleasure most of the time. I just want it to be like that more often. How do I incorporate gentle parenting with an older child when we didn't start it at the beginning? 

[philomom]

I bet your daughter knows she is not treating you right. I know you want to use gentle discipline but I feel you need to nip this bad behavior in the bud soon  before your new child picks up on it. You says she is only happy when you give into her demands.. that's behavior for the under 5 year old set.. if anyone older displays that .. we called them "spoiled". I'd make a point to explain things calmly and firmly to your daughter and then send her to her room or revoke a privilege when she's acting out. You might consider looking at summer camp options to give you and your partner and new baby just a little breather this summer from this child.

If you think this sounds harsh... what sort of life will she have unless her behavior gets straightened out? Will she have friends, be able to keep a job or get along with others? It's up to our parents to teach us these things.

[Juvysen]

"Playful parenting" had some good ideas about how to turn a kid from hating on you to building a relationship with you... Maybe try there?

[GoBecGo]

When did you last feel in love with her?  When did she last feel in love with you?

Maybe you can talk directly to her about it?  I know for a period i was very moody and quite disrespectful, and my mother punished and reprimanded and i fought and fought and eventually one day she just sat down on the floor (in my bedroom, so NOT normal for her to sit there) and sobbed and sobbed and told me she missed her daughter and didn't know how to speak to me without me screaming horrible vile things at her.  It was a real sharp shock for me and it did allow me, seeing her vulnerable, to stop fighting for a moment and LISTEN to what was being said to me.  I'm not suggesting you sit and cry if you don't normally do that sort of thing, only that maybe constantly trying to think of how to "parent" every conversation and interaction with her might be getting in the way of actually communicating with one another.  Can you ask for her help?  Can you say "ok, enough.  we're not close.  i want to be.  help me fix this."?

How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk would probably be a good read for you, if you haven't read it already.

[Dandelionkid]

 I don't have older kids but one thing that "hold onto your kids" author Neufeld suggests to get back into a good attachment with an older child is to spend quality, fun, time with them on a consistent basis despite the initial rejection that is sure to come. He describes weekend away of concentrated time. Maybe, because of your new baby, you can just get her out with you every weekend for awhile without baby. She may be feeling rejected by the love you have for the new baby, especially not being "related" to current husband. I can see that she might act out first before she gets hurt first.

[Lisa1970]

You need to give her consequences for attitude. Your dh and you should sit down with her and have a united front. Talk to her about attitude. Set down clearly defined consequences. Tell her due to her attitude in recent times, she will start with no privileges and have the chance to earn them back through time. She needs to have consistent behavior for X amount of time before she gets her first thing back. This means, no phone, no friends, no computer, no internet, no rides anywhere, etc. She needs to have chores too. And do them with a smile on her face. A good amount of time would be a week. But the first privilege earned will be on probation. So if she does not keep her good attitude, she loses it immediately. Make it consistent.

Here is the hard part..talk detached. You can assure her you love her, but you can not act all wimpy about it. Keep a stern look on your face, a serious one. Give her your best serious face through all this. Then, no matter what she says, be consistent. Do not lose your temper or show emotion. Don't let her know she is getting to you if she is getting to you. And no threats like she will go live with her dad. If she threatens to live with her dad, stay calm, and don't give up and say fine...just stay consistent and let her know it won't be happening. "You have made poor decisions until now and until you can make good decisions, you won't be making any decisions."

Good luck!

[Greenlea]

Could she be jealous of the baby?  Did this start after baby arrived?  Perhaps try doing mother daughter time out without baby or new DH.  Does she get a long with new DH?  Perhaps have her spend some time with him alone outside the house.

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by Lisa1970 

You need to give her consequences for attitude. Your dh and you should sit down with her and have a united front. Talk to her about attitude. Set down clearly defined consequences. Tell her due to her attitude in recent times, she will start with no privileges and have the chance to earn them back through time. She needs to have consistent behavior for X amount of time before she gets her first thing back. This means, no phone, no friends, no computer, no internet, no rides anywhere, etc. She needs to have chores too. And do them with a smile on her face. A good amount of time would be a week. But the first privilege earned will be on probation. So if she does not keep her good attitude, she loses it immediately. Make it consistent.

Here is the hard part..talk detached. You can assure her you love her, but you can not act all wimpy about it. Keep a stern look on your face, a serious one. Give her your best serious face through all this. Then, no matter what she says, be consistent. Do not lose your temper or show emotion. Don't let her know she is getting to you if she is getting to you. And no threats like she will go live with her dad. If she threatens to live with her dad, stay calm, and don't give up and say fine...just stay consistent and let her know it won't be happening. "You have made poor decisions until now and until you can make good decisions, you won't be making any decisions."

Good luck!

I am curious how this deals with the underlying cause of her behavior. It seems to me that a drastic change in behavior recently, coupled with a new baby, and a history of poor bonding with the mother might warrant a closer look at the root of the behavior.  Taking away privileges and getting her to do more chores (with a smile on her face), without addressing her underlying anger seems like a recipe for more detachment and "playing the game" to get her privileges back. I'm sure she can find many more secret, possibly more damaging ways, to act out while keeping all of her privileges intact.  I agree the disrespect needs to change but starting with figuring out the root cause seems much more effective than applying a thin veneer of civility. 

[heartmama]

Effective discipline is inextricably linked to the quality of the parent/child relationship.

You recognize that you have not bonded well with your daughter, harbor strong negative feelings towards her, there is conflict with her and your current husband, a new baby, and a history of negative discipline--I am SO impressed and glad you are brave enough to say all this and ask for help. Be proud of yourself. It is clear you want a strong and healthy relationship with your daughter.

I think you can have that--and I think you need PROFESSIONAL help. I think a good family counselor is key to your success. You need an experienced professional who can speak to your family in person and help you with hands on support. This change is going to be a LONG process and a good family therapist will be INVALUABLE. Please pursue family therapy, as your needs are beyond the scope of what anyone can tell you in a single post regarding your daughter. You both have many deep seated issues to work out with a therapist and I feel strongly that her behavior will improve as your connection and communication with each other changes through therapy.

You CAN do this!

 Taking away privileges and getting her to do more chores (with a smile on her face), without addressing her underlying anger seems like a recipe for more detachment and "playing the game" to get her privileges back. I'm sure she can find many more secret, possibly more damaging ways, to act out while keeping all of her privileges intact.  I agree the disrespect needs to change but starting with figuring out the root cause seems much more effective than applying a thin veneer of civility.

I think this is absolutely correct and I hope everyone posting to this thread recognizes that consequences and punishment alone will not touch the very complicated deep seated issues the mother has shared.

[Marsupialmom]

I agree that you need to talk to a professional. There is a history that needs to be addressed and worked on.

I think there might be some jealousy of the baby. You said your baby was 5mths old. I bet the baby is getting a lot of attention. I would work hard on finding time to just be you and your dd. I do wonder if your dd feels she misses out..this is were coucilling really could help.

Also think puberty could be playing a role. I would encourage you to secretly chart her behavior papers. You suspect will see a pattern. My son, my first, went through a very moody age at 9-10 then we notice early signs of puberty. I was not expecting a moody emotional phase with my son....but OH WAS THERE ONE!! My oldest dd, second child, 9-10 again was moody. I was more prepared for this phase. There became a destinct almost predictable pattern...for her there was more obvious signs of puberty. My now 10 year old is moody, not as sever as my older daughter, but there is a pattern. She is not developing as fast as my older daughter, but we noticed the settle signs hair on her legs darking and thicking.

After three children, I can sit hit with knowledge and say this two will pass. For the most part, it has with my older two children.

I don't expect my kids to do chore cheerfully, they are kids. You as the adult need to develop a filter on that whine. Also consequences. My 12 year old is currently mad at me because I won't change what her dad said. He said you can have friends over if you help clean. She didn't. My other two kids cleaned and she ended up sitting in my room crying why they had friends over. Most of the stuff was hers. We have told our children, "We don't care how they are done, just do them." 

You have to learn to filter whines. She is a kid and will use them to get out of stuff, because it can work.

Also, IMO at this age kids learn to be more emotionally manipulative. They are mimicking more adult ways to get their way.  Their bodies and minds are not always developmentally in the same place. Then we as parents can expect to little or to much. 

[One_Girl]

A lot of kids yell, complain, and push boundaries and it really has nothing to do with the parent or trying to be mean.  There is a really neat book out that you may like called Getting To Calm: Cool Headed Strategies For Parenting Tweens And Teens

I also like this article a lot:  http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129150658

I remember doing the things you describe as a child and being very crushed when we were in counseling and my step-dad said exactly what he though about me as a person because of these things.  He took my childish behaviors very seriously and that did permanent damage to our relationship.  We went from having a close relationship to a very distant one and we still don't hug to this day.  He decided that I was deliberately being a spiteful person when I was just testing my boundaries and trying to get a little more freedom from my very oppressive mother and he wanted very little to do with me after that, my mother supported him and backed off quite a bit from loving but strict to just strict.  I was very hurt by my parents reaction and now that I have a dd who also has a lot of my same personality, but isn't as intense as I was, I really think that my parents reacted like children to a child instead of like calm level headed adults addressing an angry child who still needs love and boundaries.  I see a huge difference in my dd's behavior when I behave out of stress like a child by letting myself get angry with her versus the times I let her tantrum roll off my back and treat it in a matter of fact way, 

It sounds like there is a lot of stress in the house now and I suggest that you take some time for just you then take time to bond with just your dd by taking her to do some fun things.  My dd loves going to coffee shops for a treat so we bond by walking to the one down the way and doing that.  When we have an especially negative cycle going on I make sure to be clear about my expectations and boundaries while also spending more time one on one doing things my dd likes to do.  We also have a rule about negative behavior being for bedrooms only.  If dd starts the "it's not fairs" I acknowledge her feelings and give her the choice to stop yelling or go to her room and I send her to her room if she makes it clear that she is not going to stop.

[karne]

I think that for many of us who practice AP/GD with our kids, the "storm" of adolescence can feel a little bewildering.  I understand that the OP has lots more complicating the situation, but I just want to acknowledge that this life stage can present a crisis of sorts for both parent and child.  It's very real, and most of us weren't given a road map to deal with it, lol.  OP, you can navigate this with your dd, but please do know that it is truly a sign of strength to reach out for professional support.  You are so brave to put it all out there like you have.

[VisionaryMom]

My childhood had a similar dynamic. TBH, I wasn't like your daughter, but I probably would have had an easier time of it had I been. Instead I internalized my mother's dislike of me (which stemmed largely from the idea that *I* had ruined her life because she was so young, my dad was irresponsible, etc.). Are you asking your daughter to fit into *your* new version of family life without her input? She got a step-dad and a new sibling and a drastically different way of living (fast food to organic, whole foods and authoritarian to gentle discipline). I can tell you that it now feels to her as if you want to erase your past life together (just the two of you) and create a new life that she's expected to just fall into without question because you are the parent and get to make the decisions. That's how I felt, and it's awful and feels like rejection. I recall desperately wanting my mother to acknowledge that our life had existed before and that it hadn't been all bad (which, by extension, meant that I was bad). She could never do that, and we have a very shallow, conflict-ridden relationship now.

I think the decisions you've made re: food & discipline are great. I'm not questioning the decision to move in those directions at all, but try seeing this from your daughter's perspective. Acknowledging that your prior life had good things come out of it will help. Spending time just being with her to enjoy yourself and take pleasure in her will help. Allowing her to feel some modicum of control over her life will create more stability.  

[Ellien C]

Originally Posted by One_Girl 

I was very hurt by my parents reaction and now that I have a dd who also has a lot of my same personality, but isn't as intense as I was, I really think that my parents reacted like children to a child instead of like calm level headed adults addressing an angry child who still needs love and boundaries.  I see a huge difference in my dd's behavior when I behave out of stress like a child by letting myself get angry with her versus the times I let her tantrum roll off my back and treat it in a matter of fact way, 

It sounds like there is a lot of stress in the house now and I suggest that you take some time for just you then take time to bond with just your dd by taking her to do some fun things.  My dd loves going to coffee shops for a treat so we bond by walking to the one down the way and doing that.  When we have an especially negative cycle going on I make sure to be clear about my expectations and boundaries while also spending more time one on one doing things my dd likes to do.  We also have a rule about negative behavior being for bedrooms only.  If dd starts the "it's not fairs" I acknowledge her feelings and give her the choice to stop yelling or go to her room and I send her to her room if she makes it clear that she is not going to stop.

I think this is really good advice. When you say she "speaks to you as if you are dirt," it sounds very triggering for you. Could this be reminiscent of the way her father or someone else in your life talked to you? Do remember that the way she speaks to you isn't a reflection of how she thinks about YOU - it's a reflection of how she thinks about herself.

I have similar 8 yo (and we DID bond and I've strived to be GD!). I can tell you that counseling helped as did better parenting tools. When she started screaming at me, I was at a loss as to how to get her back down. So I would resort to yelling. There was a book that was really helpful called The Explosive Child.

I would let yourself off the hook for whatever went before. You did the best you could with what you have. Lots of 1-1 time, even when it's not always pleasant has worked a lot. At times I had MAKE myself do it - I really didnt' want to spend time with her sniping and complaining. But after the first few times, when it became a regular thing, she got much better. It was predictable and she could count on it and start looking forward to it. (I also have a 10 month old, so we're kind of in the same boat).

 

[terrordactyl]

she sounds exactly like i did starting around that age, and other teenagers or pre teens you might want to cross post this in the teenage years forum. they might have some advice from parents with children the same age

[amymccarty]

One thing is for sure... I would be seeing a counsellor 100%! Both you and her. I think this is very important. Some healing needs to be done from your past and hers or both of you will not be able to move forward. Please seek out these services. You will be SO glad you did.

[phathui5]

If you look for a counselor, please be sure to interview them first. My mom and I tried counseling when I was about 12 and the guy we saw was really negative towards me and didn't do anything to help mend our relationship.

Also, I agree with the posters who said to work on spending quality time together. Even if it doesn't go well every time, keep trying to take time to bond with her.

[Lakeeffectsnow]

Originally Posted by NaturalMamaLama 

I'm going to give a brief background. I had my daughter when I was 16. Due to this fact and the fact that I was in an abusive relationship, we did not form an attachment like I now know we should have. We left her dad when she was 2. I met my now Husband when she was 5. She's never called him Dad and they get along better now, but they still but heads.

Over the past 2-3 months or so, she has begun to seriously irritate me. It's to the point where sometimes I wish she could live with her Dad. I don't want to hug her because I feel that her hugs are fake. How can she be so cruel to me and give me an honest hug? (I'll get to the cruelty in a moment) I truly don't even want to listen to her because everything she says and does mostly irritates me. Let me get to what she does and why I feel this way.

When she gets her way, she allows me to be happy. When the smallest thing isn't what she wants, she literally treats me like she hates me. Right now, she's screaming at me from the other room. She talks to me like I'm nothing. While I speak, if she doesn't like what I'm saying, she rolls her eyes and snaps nasty looks and interrupts me with snide remarks. She doesn't believe things that I say when it's not what she wants to hear. When I ask her to do something, even when I give her notice beforehand, she will sometimes simply say 'no, i'm not going to do it.' or 'no, i dont want to'. She's ALWAYS telling me 'thats not fair!' I hear that 5 times a day. She uses what I say against me and twists my words. She's EXTREMELY technical with things that are said and uses that against me often.

I have a 5 month old whom I am practicing gentle parenting with and I just don't know how to practice it with her when up until 2-3 months ago, when her behavior really got terrible, I was an authoritarian parent. I still am forced to be by giving consequences like grounding, taking stuff away, etc because she speaks to me like I am NOTHING and I will not spank/... I don't know how to handle it! I almost always stay calm and respectful, often asking her to speak more softly when she yells or treat me nice when she tells me that she hates me. It doesn't work. She gets louder and meaner. 

I feel terrible writing this, but I think about how much easier it would be if she wasn't here to make me feel like this. I don't want to touch her most of the time, play with her, be with her. Because she treats me like the enemy. Like her arch enemy. Like garbage. Every single day. I know it's mostly my fault. Everything that she does. We never bonded like we should have. We grew apart because I didn't pay enough attention. But HOW DO I FIX THIS? and how do I love my daughter again?

I'm very gently going to suggest finding a good therapist who practices or supports gentle parenting (asks lots of questions).  What strikes me from your post is you feel your daughter is rejecting you, but it sounds like she feels rejected by you too.  Your feelings are legitimate, no one likes to be treated badly.   Keep in mind you just had a cute lovable baby and most 10 year olds feel neither cute or lovable.  It's easy to practice gentle discipline on a small child and pretty tough with older kids (I have a 12 year old and a 13 year old).  If you feel like you don't love her, she probably knows how you feel.  I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but part of being a mother is to act like you love you kids even if you want to strangle them.  Fake it until you make.  Another thought is if you have switched your parenting style, she may be confused and feeling lost by the change of rules and boundaries.  Did you talk her about your change in philosophy?  

Do you enjoy being around her at all?  Is any fun or even neutral thing you can do together?  My oldest daughter and I don't really have much in common.  She is very intense and very private, to me she seems closed off and only shows emotions when she is upset.  I'm very different, one of the things she loves to do is watch "Glee" and I don't mind watching it.  So that is our weekly date, she and I go upstairs and watch it lying on my bed and eating popcorn.  She talks about the show and sometimes it segues into talking about her life and emotions (she's my 12 year old) and we wind up pausing the show to talk.  That is our time together, no babies, no brothers, no fathers.