careful of grandparent's rights bills usurping parental rights

[elus0814]

It was suggested I start a new thread so here goes:

There are bills in both Canada and the United States that have come up in the past couple years that would give grandparents the right to ask a judge for visitation with the grandchildren even against the wishes of the parents. There is one bill in Canada, bill #22. Please fight these bills if they come up in your country or state. There is a law in a few states, including Alabama, that gives grandparents the right to ask for visitation if the parents have lost parental rights. It has yet to come up in a court but laws like this have the potential to not only progress to 'right' for grandparents of all children and the grandparents of a child who is adopted to intrude in the lives of the adoptive parents and obtain visitation. 

I am very concerned about this for many reasons. I think it would be terrible for a grandparent to be given visitation against the parent's wishes. Parents are in charge of their children, not grandparents. The people who support bills like this often state that 'in this age of single parenting, addictions, job loss, etc. children need their grandparents' and 'children have no say in if they get to see their grandparents'. I know there are many children with wonderful grandparents their parents keep the children away from while the parents are single, unemployed addicts. There are also many, many children (like mine) in stable, two parent homes with steady family incomes where the grandparents have addictions. I know if there was a law like this a grandparent in my family would run right out and ask a judge for visitation since I don't allow my children alone with them and they have always been mad about it. A judge would likely grant them visitation if the law made it possible since they would look good on paper.

[Climbing Rose]

I just wanted to completely agree with you.

There are moms on this board who are fit mothers (if not excellent mothers!) and have been sued here in the U.S.

My own very abusive parents seriously took about three years out of my life, where I lived in constant terror, that they would succeed with these laws and legally kidnap my toddler and baby.

By the grace of God, we are safe but others are not.

A good place to get updates on this (however you feel about them otherwise) is to sign up for HSLDA's free email updates in your state.  (Not sure if they do Canada too.)  They watch the legislation, and let you know when and how to act.

I know some will say that this doesn't happen in the US since the Supreme Court ruled on Troxille vs. Granville, but the sad truth is- yes it does, and has happened to moms right here at MDC since then.  They have been drug into court, spent tens of thousands of dollars on legal fees, been forced for them and their children to be evaluated by strangers, ordered into mediation with the grandparents, the children were forced into mediation with the grandparents *without* the parents present, and all BEFORE the case was even decided.  So the parents and children could *win* and still have to go thru all that.  ((shudder))  If you 'lose' the grandparents can end up with what a divorced dad usually gets- every other weekend, two weeks in summer, etc.

It is a scary thing to have no control over who has access to your young children *alone.*

[jimblejamble]

Greeeeeat, just what I need, my dad already thinks my son is HIS kid... Ugh.

[elus0814]

Originally Posted by Love 

I just wanted to completely agree with you.

There are moms on this board who are fit mothers (if not excellent mothers!) and have been sued here in the U.S.

My own very abusive parents seriously took about three years out of my life, where I lived in constant terror, that they would succeed with these laws and legally kidnap my toddler and baby.

By the grace of God, we are safe but others are not.

A good place to get updates on this (however you feel about them otherwise) is to sign up for HSLDA's free email updates in your state.  (Not sure if they do Canada too.)  They watch the legislation, and let you know when and how to act.

I know some will say that this doesn't happen in the US since the Supreme Court ruled on Troxille vs. Granville, but the sad truth is- yes it does, and has happened to moms right here at MDC since then.  They have been drug into court, spent tens of thousands of dollars on legal fees, been forced for them and their children to be evaluated by strangers, ordered into mediation with the grandparents, the children were forced into mediation with the grandparents *without* the parents present, and all BEFORE the case was even decided.  So the parents and children could *win* and still have to go thru all that.  ((shudder))  If you 'lose' the grandparents can end up with what a divorced dad usually gets- every other weekend, two weeks in summer, etc.

It is a scary thing to have no control over who has access to your young children *alone.*

That's terrible you had to go through something like that. HSLDA is a great website for homeschooling families as well as just about anyone. Some of the stories on there really worry me. 

[Climbing Rose]

One reason I have never understood the logic behind grandparents "rights" is-- if you did a half-way decent job raising your own DC, you are NOT going to have to sue to them to be in their lives when they are grown.

On the other hand, if you raised a DC to adulthood and have a relationship with them that is SO awful that you feel the need to sue them in court... I think it speaks for itself that you have made some *serious* mistakes as a parent that you need to mend-- and a lawsuit is clearly only going to add to the drama and pain, not make things better. If you were so lacking as a parent in the first place, your adult child obviously has reasons to keep safe boundaries in their relationship with you, and that goes double for their DC.

You do not have 'rights' to a child you are not parenting, plain and simple.

And if you are parenting a child that is not yours, there are other laws that factor in (things like getting guardianship, etc), and you don't need forced grandparents 'rights' anyway.

It blows my mind- the sense of entitlement some people have to other people's children. You raised yours, you should have done better & now it's someone else's turn.... and they don't want you doing to their DC what you did to them. That's the way life works.

Children are not chattel to be shuttled off here and there, with their lives to be decided by a strange judge... That is why they have parents in the first place.

There are already laws about child abuse, neglect, etc, if children are in actual harms way.  But grandparents rights laws just attempt to over-ride a fit, loving parent's right to make choices about the well-being of their own children.  It should be up to the parents whether or not to inject things into their child, to homeschool or out-school, to buy raw milk or not, and it should *definitely* up to the parents if they want to send their defenseless children off with certain people or not.

I have been around the block in this area, and from all I have ever seen, the type of grandparents that sue just want more control.  Most (if not all) simply can't handle that their DC grew up and they are not in charge of everything anymore.  My own parents wanted to sue because they thought it was crazy that DS had to be in a carseat at 2, and that DD-4 months was nursing.  They wanted my DC alone so they could be the parents and 'fix' these terrible mistakes DH and I were making.  They were crazy abusive (all three ways) and it was a nightmare.  But of course, they have money and not everyone knows what goes on behind closed doors at their house.

But really, I have a strong faith in God and He protected us through it all.... I just feel for others who are still vulnerable.

[sunflower.mama]

Haven't practiced family law in a couple years now...but it's my recollection that these bills aren't for use in stable 2 family homes.  There needs to be a custody action pending in a divorce type situation.  The bar is VERY high in these cases.  It's for the odd case where grandparents essentially raise a child and then a parent gets custody and denies the child any contact with those grandparents.  The standard is not just that the contact with the grandparents is in the best interests of the child (which is the standard basis for decisions) but that harm would come to the child if denied contact with grandparents.  So parents in intact families have NOTHING to fear if their estranged family member files suit.
 

Originally Posted by elus0814 

It was suggested I start a new thread so here goes:

There are bills in both Canada and the United States that have come up in the past couple years that would give grandparents the right to ask a judge for visitation with the grandchildren even against the wishes of the parents. There is one bill in Canada, bill #22. Please fight these bills if they come up in your country or state. There is a law in a few states, including Alabama, that gives grandparents the right to ask for visitation if the parents have lost parental rights. It has yet to come up in a court but laws like this have the potential to not only progress to 'right' for grandparents of all children and the grandparents of a child who is adopted to intrude in the lives of the adoptive parents and obtain visitation. 

I am very concerned about this for many reasons. I think it would be terrible for a grandparent to be given visitation against the parent's wishes. Parents are in charge of their children, not grandparents. The people who support bills like this often state that 'in this age of single parenting, addictions, job loss, etc. children need their grandparents' and 'children have no say in if they get to see their grandparents'. I know there are many children with wonderful grandparents their parents keep the children away from while the parents are single, unemployed addicts. There are also many, many children (like mine) in stable, two parent homes with steady family incomes where the grandparents have addictions. I know if there was a law like this a grandparent in my family would run right out and ask a judge for visitation since I don't allow my children alone with them and they have always been mad about it. A judge would likely grant them visitation if the law made it possible since they would look good on paper.

[Climbing Rose]

sunflower.mama, unfortunately, it's not that simple because the laws vary by each state in the U.S. 

It would be great if no intact families could be sued, but that just isn't the case.  It is just however each individual state words their law. 

Some states allow any family to be sued, no matter what the condition of the family.

At the moment, I think WA state is the only state that is actually truly safe.  And a lot of people say FL is really good too.

I wish I hadn't been put in a situation where I needed to know this, but I do- and some states have some pretty bad laws, for everyone.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by elus0814 

Originally Posted by Love 

I just wanted to completely agree with you.

There are moms on this board who are fit mothers (if not excellent mothers!) and have been sued here in the U.S.

My own very abusive parents seriously took about three years out of my life, where I lived in constant terror, that they would succeed with these laws and legally kidnap my toddler and baby.

By the grace of God, we are safe but others are not.

A good place to get updates on this (however you feel about them otherwise) is to sign up for HSLDA's free email updates in your state.  (Not sure if they do Canada too.)  They watch the legislation, and let you know when and how to act.

I know some will say that this doesn't happen in the US since the Supreme Court ruled on Troxille vs. Granville, but the sad truth is- yes it does, and has happened to moms right here at MDC since then.  They have been drug into court, spent tens of thousands of dollars on legal fees, been forced for them and their children to be evaluated by strangers, ordered into mediation with the grandparents, the children were forced into mediation with the grandparents *without* the parents present, and all BEFORE the case was even decided.  So the parents and children could *win* and still have to go thru all that.  ((shudder))  If you 'lose' the grandparents can end up with what a divorced dad usually gets- every other weekend, two weeks in summer, etc.

It is a scary thing to have no control over who has access to your young children *alone.*

That's terrible you had to go through something like that. HSLDA is a great website for homeschooling families as well as just about anyone. Some of the stories on there really worry me. 

Please be careful with this recommendation. HSLDA is a conservative Christian homeschooling activist organization with an agenda and which should not be relied upon as a reliable or unbiased source of information about legal issues, particularly those outside of homeschooling specific issues. As with all things, it is important to do your independent research into issues.

With respect to Bill 22 it  is a minor amendment to the Children's Law Reform Act in Ontario which deals with grandparents rights in divorce and custody cases.  While it would insert the term grandparents in the legislation it doesn't dramatically change the bill as there are already provisions in it that allow non parents to apply for access or custody and requires the courts to make decisions based on the best interests of the child. 

You can read the existing law here and the bill here.  This is a private member's bill (meaning that even though the MPP who introduced it is a member of of the government, this isn't a bill that the government places much priority on) and similar bills have been defeated 3 previous times.   I don't know what HSLDA is circulating about it but my guess is that it is way overblown.

[Lisa1970]

I think if the grandparents were that great, they would not need to sue. Previously, statistics showed that when grandparents sued, the grandparents were usually the ones with abuse issues or substance abuse issues.

I hope they do not pass any laws giving grandparents rights. At least not while the parents are still around.

[Lisa1970]

Originally Posted by Love 

sunflower.mama, unfortunately, it's not that simple because the laws vary by each state in the U.S. 

It would be great if no intact families could be sued, but that just isn't the case.  It is just however each individual state words their law. 

Some states allow any family to be sued, no matter what the condition of the family.

At the moment, I think WA state is the only state that is actually truly safe.  And a lot of people say FL is really good too.

I wish I hadn't been put in a situation where I needed to know this, but I do- and some states have some pretty bad laws, for everyone.

Last I checked, Grandparents did not have any rights in Texas either. Years ago, certain grandparents wanted to go around us and just sue for visitation and did not get away with it. Then, MIL tried to get niece from SIL. Courts would not award it (but MIL took off with niece anyway and it  took 2 months for SIL and the police to get niece back).

[philomom]

Originally Posted by Lisa1970 

I think if the grandparents were that great, they would not need to sue. Previously, statistics showed that when grandparents sued, the grandparents were usually the ones with abuse issues or substance abuse issues.

I hope they do not pass any laws giving grandparents rights. At least not while the parents are still around.

This. Thank you very much!

[Climbing Rose]

Originally Posted by Lisa1970 

I think if the grandparents were that great, they would not need to sue. Previously, statistics showed that when grandparents sued, the grandparents were usually the ones with abuse issues or substance abuse issues.

I hope they do not pass any laws giving grandparents rights. At least not while the parents are still around.

I agree- BUT really, even if something happens to the parents, it many cases it's still not a good idea to force third party visitation.  God forbid that something should happen to the fit parent raising the child, but the parent dying would not suddenly cause the grandparent to become a great person with no mental/drug/abuse issues, yk?  The parents will/wishes should be respected. 

(hope i'm making sense this morning- i'm pregnant and sleepy from taking care of a little one last night! =)

[AFWife]

Originally Posted by Lisa1970 

Last I checked, Grandparents did not have any rights in Texas either. Years ago, certain grandparents wanted to go around us and just sue for visitation and did not get away with it. Then, MIL tried to get niece from SIL. Courts would not award it (but MIL took off with niece anyway and it  took 2 months for SIL and the police to get niece back).

You're right. The only case where Gparents have rights is if they can prove that not being in the child's life would be detrimental to the child. So, if they were raising said child and suddenly one of the parents wanted to come back in the picture and keep the Gparents away.

[Ella Enchanted]

I am 100% against grandparent rights.  Even my own mother-in-law, who has been kept out of her only grandson D's life (her younger son and I are parents of one of her her granddaughters) because his father T (her older son) and his ex S had a messy break-up, disagrees with laws that would give grandparents the right to go to court and demand visitation, which is essentially parenting time.  While it sucks that she's been kept out of her grandson's life, she understand how easy it would be for the right to be abused, and she understand that the parents are the ones who should have the sole right to decide.  She's also against anything that would enable the court to become involved in ANY family's life.  It's enough that there are three parents of kids whose parents are divorced - mom, dad, and a judge - without making it so that EVERY kid has at least 7 "parents" - mom, dad, mom's mom and dad, dad's mom and dad, and the judge - if even one grandparent decides they want more time.

[Ella Enchanted]

Originally Posted by Love 

One reason I have never understood the logic behind grandparents "rights" is-- if you did a half-way decent job raising your own DC, you are NOT going to have to sue to them to be in their lives when they are grown.

On the other hand, if you raised a DC to adulthood and have a relationship with them that is SO awful that you feel the need to sue them in court... I think it speaks for itself that you have made some *serious* mistakes as a parent that you need to mend-- and a lawsuit is clearly only going to add to the drama and pain, not make things better. If you were so lacking as a parent in the first place, your adult child obviously has reasons to keep safe boundaries in their relationship with you, and that goes double for their DC.

You do not have 'rights' to a child you are not parenting, plain and simple.

And if you are parenting a child that is not yours, there are other laws that factor in (things like getting guardianship, etc), and you don't need forced grandparents 'rights' anyway.

It blows my mind- the sense of entitlement some people have to other people's children. You raised yours, you should have done better & now it's someone else's turn.... and they don't want you doing to their DC what you did to them. That's the way life works.

Children are not chattel to be shuttled off here and there, with their lives to be decided by a strange judge... That is why they have parents in the first place.

There are already laws about child abuse, neglect, etc, if children are in actual harms way.  But grandparents rights laws just attempt to over-ride a fit, loving parent's right to make choices about the well-being of their own children.  It should be up to the parents whether or not to inject things into their child, to homeschool or out-school, to buy raw milk or not, and it should *definitely* up to the parents if they want to send their defenseless children off with certain people or not.

I have been around the block in this area, and from all I have ever seen, the type of grandparents that sue just want more control.  Most (if not all) simply can't handle that their DC grew up and they are not in charge of everything anymore.  My own parents wanted to sue because they thought it was crazy that DS had to be in a carseat at 2, and that DD-4 months was nursing.  They wanted my DC alone so they could be the parents and 'fix' these terrible mistakes DH and I were making.  They were crazy abusive (all three ways) and it was a nightmare.  But of course, they have money and not everyone knows what goes on behind closed doors at their house.

But really, I have a strong faith in God and He protected us through it all.... I just feel for others who are still vulnerable.

This reminds me of an ex of mine.  His former-mother-in-law sued for custody and eventually ended up with it because he could no longer afford the attorney bills, but she could.  She wanted to raise her granddaughter (and did such an awful job of raising her own that her own daughter was an absent parent who didn't care where the child in question ended up), and didn't think any sane dad would want to be a single parent.  So she sues, and after three YEARS in court, she got custody when he finally had to ask how to end it and was told he could sign away high rights, or he could stop going to hearings and still lose his rights.  What's frightening is this happened in a state without grandparent right.  I was in court that day, and I've never seen a man so crushed and destroyed.

[Climbing Rose]

That is just heart-breaking.

I think the courts are just way to involved anymore, and the pendulum (sp?) needs to swing the other way.

So often, when the laws go beyond basic things (child abuse, etc) they just turn into micro-management by the government- who has no true vested interest in how your particular child turns out, and definitely has no love for your child.

I think if you make a baby, and are a decent parent, the gov't needs to get out of the way and do what it's supposed to be doing in the first place.  I really don't think it was created to micromanage a fit parent's child-raising decisions.

I think all grandparents have the basic ability to see their adult child's children, but it is NOT for a strange judge to grant.  You get the "right" by being a good parent, and you lose it by being a poor parent. 

I don't know why some people don't understand this. 

In my family, one of the single moms had her children removed from the home for the mom not being a stable person in many ways.  Then the courts gave guardianship to the mom's parents.  I thought that was the dumbest thing ever.  I mean, how do they think the mom got to be that way?  It was how her parents treated her, and all she knew, and she was just repeating the cycle.  How on earth was giving the children to the people that started it going to make the children's life any better?

I think it is the same with grandparents rights.  If you messed up, you shouldn't get a court-forced chance to do it another time to another generation.

Edited by Climbing Rose - 3/10/11 at 6:52am

[crazyms]

I agree these laws shouldn't go through. My in laws threatened to sue us for visitation rights as well as BIL & SIL. They got upset that only one of the 6 total kids (between mil and step fil) would let them see their kids. Um well we had reason considering they are alcoholics, fil beats mil, is mentally ill and was accused by one of his daughters for sexual abuse. I don't see them getting visitation if they tried but the law in general is ridiculous. My father isn't allowed to see our children either because he's a drug addict, abusive and a child molester (undocumented though). Since he has no 'record' of any kind - no criminal record, reports of the sexual abuse, or treatments for the drug addictions - he looks good 'on paper' and it makes me cringe to think that if these laws passed he could try to go after visitation for my kids. It's a definite violation of the parent's rights. From what I can tell (in my state) the grandparents rights cases are only considered in non intact families in cases of divorce or death of one of the parents. I don't think that's right either though because dh and I make a joint decision not to let these people have contact with our children. If he were to die his mother and step father are still just as dangerous as they are while he's alive and the same goes for my father. I don't think it's right that if we were to divorce or one of us die that the grandparents on either side could try to get visitation then like our joint decision before the death or divorce is no longer valid. Definitely an intrusion on parental rights and just one more situation where the government needs to stay out of people's personal lives.

[InsideOut]

I've been searching the boards for information because I am now finding myself in this nightmare. DS father and I have recently split up - he lives in our house that is under my name and DS and I live in my parents house. Ex's mother has advised that she'll be taking me to court for grandparents rights because she "never gets to see the baby".

Ex, DS and I all spent last Sunday with Ex's mother, step-father, brother, and other extended family members. Prior to that, any time Ex's mother wanted to see the baby she was welcomed to our house and we attended all family functions including all holidays since DS has been born with her and their family. She's never asked me to see DS and have me refuse. Essentially, she thinks she is owed one-on-one time with DS without me around and now has Ex on my back about the situation as well.

Ex's mother is a gambling addict, has many health problems including vertigo and obesity which keep her from being able to bend down to pick up DS or walk the stairs while holding DS. In her house lives her partner who is a drug-addict, her mother who has Alzheimer's and requires constant care, her 14 year old son, and a mean German Shepard(sp?) who by her own admission would kill the neighbours' dogs if given the opportunity. She lives 45 minutes away from me (without traffic).

My son is going on 8 months old and still exclusively breast fed. I live in a province in Canada that has a Grandparents' Rights law. Does she have a leg to stand on? What questions do I need to ask when I see a lawyer in terms of keeping her from getting court-ordered visitation? What should I be documenting? Any advice?

As I mentioned, I've never refused access and never planned on it. She doesn't seem to understand that I have a life and DS is the biggest part of it so naturally, he will always be where I am. We can visit her as we would visit any relatives but forcing visitation??? She wants a hand in raising my son and having influence and control over the situation.

[Climbing Rose]

I'm sorry, but we live in the US so I don't have a lot of knowledge of the current Canadian laws.

I can tell you in my circumstance, if my parents had won, we would have left the country before we let them take our children. It was that bad, and I would protect my children however I had to, before I put them in that kind of harm's way. I think the best thing you could do is talk to a lawyer.

I worried a lot needlessly due to empty threats that were just meant to scare and thus gain control, when it turned out we never could have been sued in the first place, in the state we were in at that time. (The laws can change and it can be complicated.)

Whatever is costs to talk to a lawyer is worth the peace of mind, IMO.

Also, I am not a lawyer, but I was told to never sign *anything* saying you agree to visitation (out of fear, etc). Anything a judge orders, you can fight. But if you agree (because you are afraid it will get worse if you don't) it makes it very hard to fight later. Or so I was told.

There was a parent's rights board at www.parentsrights.com that had a message board that I used to go to. You could check it out. I emailed people there and got really good advice.

If your ex wants his mom to have your DC, really why doesn't he just do it on his time anyway? Why do people have to be so sue happy about other people's children? =(

I'm sorry you are going thru that. It sounds really hard!

[chausjm]

I don't think you have anything to worry about if the grandparents are druggies. All you need to do is inform the court and they will be denied access. In cases where the parents are druggies and grandparents are seeking access, it is in the child's best interest. I suppose each case must be judged on its own merit.

Now, Supppose you die in a car accident, your husband remarries and his new wife denys your parents (not druggies) access just because she dosen't want them around.

I signed a petition for Bill 22 because for this particular reason, I was in favor of it. We should be careful in what we wish for because it could backfire. Grandparents today, do not have any legal recourse. Also, children will be placed in foster care rather than being placed with a grandparent if something happens to the parents because grandparents have NO legal standing in court and it is assumed that the children's aid society has your child's best interest at heart and they have legal standing in court and a right to dictate what is best for your child if something happens to the parents.