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if someone said to you "The object of intellectual education is to create such indissoluble associations of our ideas of things, in the order and relation in which they occur in nature; that of a moral education is to unite as fixedly, the ideas of evil deeds with those of pain and degradation, and of good actions with those of pleasure and nobleness."?
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If someone actually SAID that to me? Verbally? I guess I'd go with, "welcome to 2011, how was your trip?" lol
Okay, maybe not SAID that word for word, but the same idea.Â
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My brain is hinting at something to myself and I cannot quite put my finger on what I am trying to think...
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if someone said to you "The object of intellectual education is to create such indissoluble associations of our ideas of things, in the order and relation in which they occur in nature; that of a moral education is to unite as fixedly, the ideas of evil deeds with those of pain and degradation, and of good actions with those of pleasure and nobleness."?
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Well, there's several layers to this. An education does include associations with the order of things and their relationships. That's fine. Indissoluble is problematic because we don't know everything and knowledge changes over time (this very quote is good evidence of that, itself). I'm also happy with a moral education, though unfortunately (most unfortunately) the assertation that evil deeds are associated with pain in degradation is quite false (unless that part comes in the afterlife perhaps), and the counterpoint is similarly false. So I don't think a moral education on that foundation would be effective, since it's too easy to look and see evil people relishing their wealth and influence, and good people struggling.
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And the quote completely disregards (or goes against)Â many important parts of education: critical thinking, an interest and enjoyment of people, science, nature, language, etc., and the ability and motivation to seek further knowledge independently.
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It's from the 1800s. It's outdated.
A Â more up to date way of saying what was said might be, "All education is based on the ability of the body to process actions so that they become reflex or semi-automatic. If any two actions are habitually done one after another, the connection will be made until eventually the first action will automatically cause the second action, whether we like it or not.The purpose of academic education is to create these kinds of associations with the outside world. The purpose of a moral education is to create automatic associations so that the idea of doing evil is associated with pain, shame and blame while doing the right thing is associated with joy, satisfaction and honor." just in case we wanted to go a "round 2," lol.
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Well, there's several layers to this. An education does include associations with the order of things and their relationships. That's fine. Indissoluble is problematic because we don't know everything and knowledge changes over time (this very quote is good evidence of that, itself). I'm also happy with a moral education, though unfortunately (most unfortunately) the assertation that evil deeds are associated with pain in degradation is quite false (unless that part comes in the afterlife perhaps), and the counterpoint is similarly false. So I don't think a moral education on that foundation would be effective, since it's too easy to look and see evil people relishing their wealth and influence, and good people struggling.
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And the quote completely disregards (or goes against)Â many important parts of education: critical thinking, an interest and enjoyment of people, science, nature, language, etc., and the ability and motivation to seek further knowledge independently.
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It's from the 1800s. It's outdated.
Okay, it being from the 1800's means little to me about it being outdated - other than the syntax - but that really is a side matter. (I mean, there are TONS of older books that still have some really good info in it that are WAY older.)
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As for the use of "indissoluble" I think it is more about the association being indissoluble, rather than the information the association is 'accessing' but I only feel this way because I am reading it in context and I very well could be wrong: Again really a side matter and not quite where my brain was getting hung up.
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See, that last part of what you wrote is where my brain is like, "Wait a minuet!" Something just seems off about the quote and I am unsure as you noted it is out dated or as you feel that a moral education on that foundation out would in no way be effective. You are very right in what you are saying about how evil people can relish in there wealth, influence, and good people struggling. So then what would you claim to be an example of a "good foundation" for a moral foundation?Â
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Also I find it very interesting that you feel that it goes completely against "critical thinking, an interest and enjoyment of people, science, nature, language, etc., and the ability and motivation to seek further knowledge independently," when what I have been told about the style of study this was written about THESE are the points which seem stressed the most, but again a side matter.
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Thanks for starting to get my mental ball rolling!Â
I think it sounds like the person wants to categorize types of learning.Â
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Their category for moral learning involves punishment and reward. It seems to me that this type of moral education, the way they have described, is not about ultimate punishments/reward but about setting up a system whereby actions reap immediate rewards/punishments in order to instill certain behaviors as habit. The habit would build and ultimately lead to morals, I'd guess.
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Since this is in the GD forum, I'll say it definitely doesn't sound like Alfie would be into it.
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Tjej
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I think it sounds like the person wants to categorize types of learning.Â
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Their category for moral learning involves punishment and reward. It seems to me that this type of moral education, the way they have described, is not about ultimate punishments/reward but about setting up a system whereby actions reap immediate rewards/punishments in order to instill certain behaviors as habit. The habit would build and ultimately lead to morals, I'd guess.
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Pray tell, is this something from Charlotte Mason?
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Since this is in the GD forum, I'll say it definitely doesn't sound like Alfie would be into it.
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Tjej
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I cannot say if it involves punishment and reward on the part of the "teacher," guide, mentor -- what ever one wants to call the person interacting with the child, student (again apply "approved term here") -- or not, due to only starting to read about this "style." It is talking about habits, and the text dose talk about how good habits support good morals, but it (as of yet) say nothing about the habit leading to, creating, the moral. For example a child who thoroughly express a story, walk, pond, what have you, in detail can support the moral of telling the truth -- if that makes any sense I may just be blabbering now. I can aid the moral but in no way makes the moral.
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I do think that having good habits can help a person. I have the habit of asking a new mom how she feels even before "checking in" on baby: Why? Because who else dose! Once the baby comes everyone seems to overlook Mom and by asking something so simple I make almost every woman stop and take a step back, take a deep breath, pause, and relax if only for a moment... so important as a new mom to do. (Then again I am a doula so this might have something to do with that little habit.) Â I see this as a good thing, a little "gift" I can give with no charge or even note in return needed :D I feel this habit helps me stay a little more in tune with the world around me.Â
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Now, I think what really matters here is how one gains a habit. This is a GD forum and I think you are right that Alfie, or for that matter many other GDers, would in no way be "into" punishment/ reward. So, I am back to the question I asked before: What would you claim to be an example of a "good foundation" for a moral foundation? I will take the a step further and go -- What would you claim to be an example of a good foundation for starting to aid in helping a child form a habit? Any habit, say closing a door when you walk though it ( I am thinking my back door when my son goes out in the middle on winter to take out the recycling -- the all of 3 feet to the end of the porch).
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I'm still not quite sure where my brain is going, but thanks for the input! ^_^
I would probably tell them "Clearly you lack appropriate understanding of moral development. Associating right and wrong with pleasure and pain respectively has a high likelihood of failure, as not all acts which are morally wrong will result in pain or degradation and may in fact be perceived by the person as more profitable than morally right acts. If one were to rely solely on the personal outcome to determine the morality of ones actions, they would be far less likely to avoid immoral acts that provide them with the desired outcome despite the undesirable outcome it has for others. At which point, you as the parent begin to realize that you have raised a rather egocentric, and possibly sadistic child."
I would probably tell them "Clearly you lack appropriate understanding of moral development. Associating right and wrong with pleasure and pain respectively has a high likelihood of failure, as not all acts which are morally wrong will result in pain or degradation and may in fact be perceived by the person as more profitable than morally right acts. If one were to rely solely on the personal outcome to determine the morality of ones actions, they would be far less likely to avoid immoral acts that provide them with the desired outcome despite the undesirable outcome it has for others. At which point, you as the parent begin to realize that you have raised a rather egocentric, and possibly sadistic child."
Can I quote you on this? lol
I would probably tell them "Clearly you lack appropriate understanding of moral development. Associating right and wrong with pleasure and pain respectively has a high likelihood of failure, as not all acts which are morally wrong will result in pain or degradation and may in fact be perceived by the person as more profitable than morally right acts. If one were to rely solely on the personal outcome to determine the morality of ones actions, they would be far less likely to avoid immoral acts that provide them with the desired outcome despite the undesirable outcome it has for others. At which point, you as the parent begin to realize that you have raised a rather egocentric, and possibly sadistic child."
Can I quote you on this? lol
Sure!
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if someone said to you "The object of intellectual education is to create such indissoluble associations of our ideas of things, in the order and relation in which they occur in nature; that of a moral education is to unite as fixedly, the ideas of evil deeds with those of pain and degradation, and of good actions with those of pleasure and nobleness."?
Whoa, dude, the nineteenth century just called, and they want that governess back, pronto.
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I'd say: no, the object of intellectual education is to create a person capable of reasoning, assessment, analysis, and independent thinking that will serve them in cutting through BS and coming to a reasoned, compassionate conclusion about the morality of any given circumstance of their own life and to act accordingly.
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Point them to Piaget, Kohlberg for a discussion of how morals/ethics develops, and if you want to really get their knickers in a twist, Foucault's Discipline and Punish. I think it seems pretty self-evident that (per Kohlberg) initially (as children), we act according to the immediate reward of pleasure or consequence of pain. Then we develop an awareness of authority, rules, "right" and "wrong" and act a certain way because we are afraid of getting caught and suffering negative consequences. Then we are concerned about how others will perceive us or about fitting into social norms of behavior. But as people get older, their moral compass should ideally come from an intrinsic set of values that guides them regardless of prevailing social norms: compassion, empathy, and courage to do what you know to be right, regardless of the way it will be perceived or the consequences you might suffer (see: Underground Railroad, Gandhi, Danes in WWII, MLK, Jr...)
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Did somebody actually SAY this to you? I would also be sorely tempted to say something about how, well, if you really want to grow a kid with some kinks, enmeshing ideas about goodness and badness and pleasure and pain is a good way to do that.
Re: "What would you claim to be an example of a "good foundation" for a moral foundation? I will take the a step further and go -- What would you claim to be an example of a good foundation for starting to aid in helping a child form a habit?"
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Lead by example.
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For developing a good ethical foundation, I would encourage the child to ask questions, develop empathy and the imagination enough to put themselves in somebody else's shoes, THINK before they ACT, try to maintain an attitude of nonjudgement.
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I think ultimately, moral behavior comes NOT from an automatic response, precisely the opposite. It comes from being present to a situation, present to the suffering of others, present to one's own innate sense of justice, fairness, compassion, etc. and responding with thoughtfulness and care.
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Concrete things we can do to help our children with this:
1. Model good conflict resolution skills - fighting fair, discussion of both parties' sides, perceptions and needs, coming to a resolution that meets both people's needs in the situation.
2. Practice kindness and civility in daily life towards self, family, and community.
3. Be present to whatever you are doing. If you are washing dishes, take care with that task. If your child is hurt and crying, give them your full attention while they need it.
4. Acknowledge approximations of the behavior and thought patterns you are hoping to nurture.
I would be worried about the idea of classifying actions as Good or, more particularly, Evil. Actions are not in my experience evil or good in and of themselves. I agree with previous posters on the possible outcomes of such a mentality. Â
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I also disagree with the notion that education can be dichotomized into intellectual learning and moral learning. The two are overlapped in so many ways and well they should be. We should be encouraged to learn with our sense of morality in tact and develop that sense of morality through our intellectual understanding of the world. By isolating the two concepts we impoverish our capacity to see the world with empathy and understanding and make choices that can be seen as morally right.
Ha!!