Separation Anxiety in 4.5 yo.

[francesruben]

I'm so exhausted right now by the constant parenting of DD. She's not an easy kid to parent often and I also think she needs some extra stimulation. I also just need a break after 4.5 years at home without much help from family (no grandparents in town) or even community. 

But DD has trouble with new situations, in particular with groups of unfamiliar people. Swimming lessons were disastrous. Playgroups have been difficult. Playdates often don't work because she doesn't want to play with the other kids. Preschool was disastrous. She would almost never let me (or DH) leave her there- we persisted for about 10 months thinking it would get easier but it never did. We tried staying with her until she said we could go- this often took more than an hour and was still a difficult separation. Against my instincts I tried leaving while she screamed. I did this two or three times at the urging of the preschool director but finally withdrew her from the preschool and now have her in family daycare- five kids, one teacher, much more gentle environment. Optimistically I thought she'd like this better, but I am currently getting the same response all over again- having to stay for ages before she'll say goodbye without a total meltdown. And so many meltdowns after she comes home. (Apparently she's quite happy when she's there though). But I'm daunted because I have no real plans to homeschool and she is due to start school next year.

How normal is this? I feel like I am surrounded by children who are completely un-phased by saying goodbye to their parents, regardless of how they have been parented.

[D_McG]

I would be looking for professional help at this point. I do think that is beyond the scope of typical preschooler fears. I'm sure she will do great with the right support!

[4evermom]

My ds wouldn't let me out of his sight for months after I tried putting him in preschool at age 4.  I was very eager for a break from him, too, at that age.  He was fine with playdates and such if I was nearby.  Swimming lessons would have been a disaster partially due to some mild sensory issues and hating water in his face or in his ears.  He needed to feel he could access me if he needed to and would get stressed out if he couldn't.  He just needed to be able to touch base periodically (that was progress from taking me by the hand everywhere when he was younger or in new situations until he got comfortable).  Retrospectively, I think if we had not tried preschool or anything else, he might have been fine going to school at age 6.  I think my ds was well within the realm of normal.  And he became much easier to parent as he got a little older so homeschooling has been going well. 

If you can afford it, hiring a mother's helper might be an option, someone who will just come over and play with dd while you are home so you can get a break and do some things.

[mizzoh]

my son will be 5 next month and he was a lot like your daughter up until a few months ago. he never liked other kids - even as a baby.  we joined up with a neighborhood playgroup when he was 18 months, but he always just sat in my lap - he never explored or played with the other kids.  6 months later we stopped going because he just didn't want to go. the next 2 years were pretty isolating.  he wouldn't play with other kids at all.  if other kids were at the playground he would want to leave.  and forget about leaving him anywhere or with anyone.  we couldnt even leave him with my parents ( and he knows them very well!).  i always had to be in his sight, etc.  it was very exhausting as you say. 

ok, well my point with sharing that is that your daughter is not THAT unusual.  and the other good thing i have to say is that within the past year we have gone what from i have described above to a situationnow where my son now has several friends, and he loves to be "babysat" by my parents or at a friends house.  he now hopes there are other kids at the playground.  what i think helped him was making one good friend, and the rest grew from there.  is there a child in the neighborhood or your extended family that your daughter knows or connects with?  if so you can start there. there was something about that first friendship for my son - i think it gave him confidence and opened up a whole world for him. personally  i would stick to things like one on one playdates and stay away from big group things like lessons, etc until she is more ready

i still don't think my son would be ready for school, but we are homeschooling so this really hasn't been an issue

[beanma]

The thing with anxiety, and this is real anxiety IMO, is that it's a bit of a tightrope. Avoidant behavior makes it worse and "toughing it out" (throwing 'em in and saying "sink or swim") makes it worse. The hard thing is you have to figure out how to not completely avoid the anxiety provoking situation, but how not to push too hard. Sometimes schools don't make this easy, but it seems like you're in a good situation with the family daycare. I don't think what you describe is outside the realm of normal, but it is at the far end of the range.

I'd sit down with the daycare person and formulate a plan. For my dd1 who had severe sep anxiety much like you describe she needed a teeny bit of structure to go into after she had warmed up, but not very much structure, really. Your dd might be different. Some kids thrive on structure.  I'll tell you what I think worked best for us.

My dd1 had horrible sep anxiety as a preschooler and we tried the leaving while she was hollering and crying and the staying, etc. It was really hard to know what to do and I don't think we really did it right, but she eventually got to where it wasn't quite as bad and seemed happy enough when we came to pick her up.

I felt more comfortable with how we handled it in K. I read the book "Kids, Parents and Power Struggles" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka and while it's not specifically about separation anxiety the overall theme of the book is recognizing what kind of temperament your child has and you have and what are trigger points for each of you. It does have a anecdote in there about a mom dealing with severe sep anxiety in her child and I adapted that to deal with dd1's sep anxiety. Overall, I think it's a great book and one of the few that I could find my dd1 in. I'd definitely recommend it if you've not read it.

The way her class was set up was pretty loose and unstructured in the morning for the first 45 minutes and then the kids circled up for a more structured "morning meeting". For the first 45 minutes there were different centers and the kids were expected to choose one, but the centers were things like playdough or another material in the sensory table, dress up and pretend, building with blocks, legos, etc, the "listening loft" where kids could listen to stories on a tape player. It was a little chaotic and dd1 just felt a little bit overwhelmed. She really doesn't like a lot of structure and doesn't like being told what to do, but at the same time with this set up she just felt at loose ends and anxious because she didn't know what to do. She didn't know the other kids in the class before school started, either. Dd2 was about 2 at the time so she and I were both with dd1 (a little tricky).

What I think ended up working best was just hanging out in the classroom trying to fade in the background and not particularly interact with dd1, but just to be there as a security blanket while she found her way. For several weeks I also stayed for morning meeting, but then when the time seemed right I was able to tell dd1 that I was going to take dd2 outside, but I wasn't leaving and I would come back in to say goodbye. This gave her a chance to experience the morning meeting circle by herself. She felt more comfortable there since she knew what to expect from the teachers and the other students. I would say goodbye after the morning meeting. I think eventually she got to the point where I could say goodbye before the meeting/circle time. It was a long, long, process, and certainly not without tears, but I really think that's what she needed.

There are so many teachers and daycare providers who will tell you to just go ahead and leave while your child is screaming and crying. Tore my heart out every time I tried it and we did try it. The reason teachers promote that is because it does work for many kids, probably for most, but every now and then you get a kid like my dd1 and it just doesn't work well at all because it's a sink or swim scenario for them. It's too big of a push. When I picked dd1 up when I did this she would still have red eyes and look so sad. She just is very sensitive this way. Anyway, I think the long slow goodbye helped to make it better and having a definitive time frame, too. When she knew I was not going to leave in that first 45 minutes it helped her to relax enough to start to have fun.

One other thing that helped us was setting up 1 on 1 playdates with compatible kids from school. This was incredibly helpful. My dd1 especially liked to go over to the other child's house, but your dd might like the chance to show off her room. It gave a common shared experience that carried over to school. At times it was uncomfortable for me to approach the other parents and ask for this, but it was just so incredibly helpful it was really worth putting myself out there.

Good luck with it. I know it's hard, but dd1 is in 4th grade now and barely glances in my direction when I say goodbye now!!

[MommaMoo]

Originally Posted by mizzoh 

my son will be 5 next month and he was a lot like your daughter up until a few months ago. he never liked other kids - even as a baby.  we joined up with a neighborhood playgroup when he was 18 months, but he always just sat in my lap - he never explored or played with the other kids.  6 months later we stopped going because he just didn't want to go. the next 2 years were pretty isolating.  he wouldn't play with other kids at all.  if other kids were at the playground he would want to leave.  and forget about leaving him anywhere or with anyone.  we couldnt even leave him with my parents ( and he knows them very well!).  i always had to be in his sight, etc.  it was very exhausting as you say. 

Wow. That is EXACTLY how my son was. He refused to interact with other children and playgroups were useless. He did not play with another child until he was 4 and his cousin visited from out of state. OP, I know the heartache and difficulty this behavior causes. It is incredibly isolating and maddening when your kid won't leave your side for a second or even talk to other people. I even took DS to a psychiatrist, convinced that there was something "wrong" with him, but his symptoms didn't match up with any particular diagnosis. He turned 5 last July, and I was pregnant and desperate to have some space from him. He got into a wonderful charter school and I planned on staying with him until he was comfortable. The teacher wasn't too into that, but accepted my presence. I stayed all day for a few days and it never got any easier. While at school, he would ignore me and to my utter amazement he blended right in and played with the other kids. However, an enormous tantrum and meltdown would ensue if I attempted to leave. His teacher (an exceptionally wonderful, ideal kindy teacher) insisted DS would be fine if I left him with her. That's what we decided o do. It was HARD. DS kicked, screamed, and grabbed on to furniture when it was time to leave. He frantically grabbed for me when we dropped him off. I was a wreck. But the key thing was, we were not just dumping him into the classroom. We were leaving him with another loving adult who was helping him through his emotions. No way was she going to abandon him. She embraced DS, and there was another little boy in the class who had been through the same thing and became DS' buddy. From this experience I learned that DS needed to know that mommy and daddy are in charge, and that he would be safe in the care of another adult. I learned that I was a big part of the problem, because I was so wishy-washy and nervous about leaving him with anyone. Your daughter's difficulties may not be because of that, but I wanted to share the possibility with you because it made a HUGE difference in our lives. Kids sense when we are uncomfortable about something. We had to say, "You are going to school tomorrow, and mommy and daddy will leave you with your teacher and you will be safe." Then we followed through. DS loves school. He has no problems going, and he suffered no harm from what I perceived as my "abandonment" of him. You said your daughter is fine at school when you aren't there? That's a good sign. Is there an adult there that she likes, and whom you trust to help her through her emotions when you leave? If so, you might try making a clean break. It was probably the hardest thing I've had to do as a mom, but absolutely necessary.

[averlee]

I think your daughter's behavior is within the normal range for her age. When I taught preschool in the 4-5 year old room, I usually had 2 kids out of 12 that did not enjoy group care and being separated from their families. Every year I usually had 1 new student who could not get used to it and had to withdraw. So, I think it's quite normal, something like 10% of kids seem to have similar difficulty as your daughter at her age.

My own daughter does not do well with babysitters and I've never tried to put her in a center because I have the feeling it would be a nightmare (she's almost 4). She's pretty sensitive, the bright lighting and noise level alone would freak her out. That's actually quite similar to me- a big part of why I had to stop working in preschools was that I found it really stressful to be in that stimulating environment all day. Some of the hardest part of group care for the kids was the schedule and structure- you don't get to eat when you're hungry, you have to wait till snack time, and you don't get to choose apples or oranges, you eat it or go hungry. If you didn't sleep well and are tired, too bad, you have to wait until naptime at 1:30 even though you could fall asleep now at 10am. The other thing that's hardest for kids is having only a twelfth of the attention and affection of the adult who is responsible for keeping them safe all day. I often had to do "triage" like when one kid pees his pants while another throws up, one has poked himself with a pencil and another is crying because someone called her a dummy. Each of those kids needs topmost attention but I don't have enough hands, so someone must wait to have their needs met, which can be very hard especially when hurt or sick.

My daughter's doctor pointed out that you don't actually have to put them in kindergarten at age 5, you can wait until they are 7. He suggested that if she doesn't seem ready after her 5th birthday, it might be better to wait until the following year. 

[velcromom]

I agree that there are some kids for whom this is normal. Sensitive, intense, high needs kids especially. My own ds was not comfortable being left with anyone. I had him in a preschool where the moms stayed whenever they wanted; I left once for 45 minutes and when I got back he was a wreck - he'd literally stormed the door trying to get out & go with me, and one of the other moms was with him the whole time trying to comfort him while he cried hysterically for twenty minutes. I personally don't feel there is any benefit to the child going through that, it made things worse. It made the idea of me leaving even more real and scary once it had actually happened to him.

I know that 99% of the other moms and all the teachers will tell you "once you leave he'll be fine" but it didn't work that way for us at that time. It was just too soon for him. At the age of 5 1/2 ds started kindergarten and was nervous, a little teary-eyed, but accepted me leaving and within two weeks no longer felt sad when I left. Took another year or two before he was ready to stop being walked to the classroom, now I can drop him off and he walks on his own. It was just a matter of him being ready in his own time, and now he's great about getting dropped off at school or grandmas or staying with the sitter... after all that, we ended up at the same exact place his peers are, we just took longer to get there.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by MommaMoo 

. From this experience I learned that DS needed to know that mommy and daddy are in charge, and that he would be safe in the care of another adult. I learned that I was a big part of the problem, because I was so wishy-washy and nervous about leaving him with anyone. Your daughter's difficulties may not be because of that, but I wanted to share the possibility with you because it made a HUGE difference in our lives. Kids sense when we are uncomfortable about something. We had to say, "You are going to school tomorrow, and mommy and daddy will leave you with your teacher and you will be safe." Then we followed through. DS loves school. He has no problems going, and he suffered no harm from what I perceived as my "abandonment" of him. You said your daughter is fine at school when you aren't there? That's a good sign. Is there an adult there that she likes, and whom you trust to help her through her emotions when you leave? If so, you might try making a clean break. It was probably the hardest thing I've had to do as a mom, but absolutely necessary.

I had the exact same experience with school. It was really eye opening for me, actually. I can be an anxious person myself and I think DS and I were feeding off each other. I think in some ways he's not nearly as anxious as I thought he was.. it was just kind of part of our (dysfunctional) dynamic. School has been great and really leveled us out.

[mizzoh]

Originally Posted by MommaMoo 

 From this experience I learned that DS needed to know that mommy and daddy are in charge, and that he would be safe in the care of another adult. I learned that I was a big part of the problem, because I was so wishy-washy and nervous about leaving him with anyone. Your daughter's difficulties may not be because of that, but I wanted to share the possibility with you because it made a HUGE difference in our lives. Kids sense when we are uncomfortable about something. We had to say, "You are going to school tomorrow, and mommy and daddy will leave you with your teacher and you will be safe." Then we followed through. DS loves school. He has no problems going, and he suffered no harm from what I perceived as my "abandonment" of him. You said your daughter is fine at school when you aren't there? That's a good sign. Is there an adult there that she likes, and whom you trust to help her through her emotions when you leave? If so, you might try making a clean break. It was probably the hardest thing I've had to do as a mom, but absolutely necessary.

I agree with this as well.  We really wanted to join a babysitting group with the other families in our playgroup, but ds refused to be left at anyones house, even with his friends at his friends house where he'd been dozens of times.  Dh and I decided we were just going to tell him basically that he had to go, and he would be ok.  It wasn't like we were putting him in harms way - he was going to be at a friends house with people he knew. He might cry some, but he will be OK. So the first time he did it, he was nervous and we picked him up early ( there were some tears right before we got there, but otherwise he was fine and had fun)  he was nervous the next weekn and didn't want to go, but again we told him ( basically) that he had to.  It took a few times, but now he LOVES weekly babysitting group.  Honestly, I don't think we'd be doing it if we didn't push him some

[pianojazzgirl]

She sounds just like my best friend's ds.  At that age he had a lot of trouble being apart from his parents.  By the time he started K (he was almost 6) it had gotten a lot better.  Now he is 8 (in grade 2) and has no trouble with things like school, swimming lessons, etc.  He is fine to do playdates with friends w/o his parents there, and sleep over at friends' houses who he knows well and trusts (like us!).  He has spent weekends with grandparents etc.  I think the level of sep anxiety that you describe is within the range of normal for that age, and will very likely (like in the case of my bff's ds) lessen greatly as she gets a bit older.  His parents have always been v. gentle with him, respecting his anxiety but encouraging him to step a bit outside of his comfort zone whenever he was able to.  I think the fact that they've always respected his personality/nature and never pushed too hard has helped him greatly to feel more secure.

[francesruben]

Thanks for the great replies. I've always known DD separating from me would be a long process for us, but once you're in that preschool/ daycare environment it's very hard to do something other than the quick drop off. And that isn't DD's style (or mine) because I know for her it is genuine anxiety- she definitely falls into that all three categories of sensitive, intense, and high needs. Thankfully her current teacher is very perceptive and flexible (and incredibly caring- we're so lucky to have found such a lovely carer), but it's still stressful. DD has been hitting me when I come to pick her up because she's angry that I've left her there. I'm hoping this will change as she develops friendships. Beanma's comment about 1 on 1 playdate's is a good suggestion- it makes me feel more aware of how I too avoid socializing but that I need to encourage it in a gentle way for DD. 

 

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by francesruben 

How are you reacting to the hitting?

[sublimeliving]

I think it's not common; to ask whether it's normal, suggests she's abnormal. My advice- She's not ready for preschool, playdates, activities (unless they're mommy and me), and she may need an extra year before kindergarten. Also, most states don't require kindergarten, so she could wait and start in 1st grade. If you want your dd to learn to swim, maybe take a mommy and me class, get private lessons, or you can get swim instructor certified and teach her. Remember that all kids are different; my oldest always smiled when I left, and my youngest had melt downs. My youngest is also very sensitive, loving, gifted, caring, and thoughtful. I hope that helps. : )

[francesruben]

Originally Posted by D_McG 


How are you reacting to the hitting?

Well I find it very stressful and it also upsets me, but I'm trying to not make to big a deal of it. I have no plan for this- I kind of fumble through it. The other day once in the car together I did tell her I didn't like it and it upset me. Any ideas?
 

[francesruben]

Originally Posted by sublimeliving 

I think it's not common; to ask whether it's normal, suggests she's abnormal. My advice- She's not ready for preschool, playdates, activities (unless they're mommy and me), and she may need an extra year before kindergarten. Also, most states don't require kindergarten, so she could wait and start in 1st grade. If you want your dd to learn to swim, maybe take a mommy and me class, get private lessons, or you can get swim instructor certified and teach her. Remember that all kids are different; my oldest always smiled when I left, and my youngest had melt downs. My youngest is also very sensitive, loving, gifted, caring, and thoughtful. I hope that helps. : )

Yes, maybe it's unfair to question her 'normality' and in all honesty I don't care too much about being normal. I just don't notice it in other kids and I haven't had much understanding from other parents or our previous preschool- that's what is great about this forum. I am starting to rethink kindergarten next year- I'm not sure what is required here in Australia, but I think you can hold kids back a year.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by francesruben 

Well I find it very stressful and it also upsets me, but I'm trying to not make to big a deal of it. I have no plan for this- I kind of fumble through it. The other day once in the car together I did tell her I didn't like it and it upset me. Any ideas?
 

My kid hitting me (no matter what the circumstances) is always a big deal. IMO it's important that she knows that this is absolutely unacceptable and you'll do what you need to do to get her to stop. I think if you just 'allow' the hitting it's a tacit endorsement of her anxiety. "it's OK you're hitting of course you're utterly traumatized by being left at preschool. it IS a big deal and worthy of such an OTT reaction'.

As the mother of an anxious child I see my job as constantly trying to put things back in perspective for DS. When that meant painting on a smile and acting like preschool was no big deal then I had to do it.

Just sharing what has worked for us. Another poster up thread has had a similar experience so I don't think mine is unusual! I just know for us that your well meaning approach, when I tried it, did more harm than good. But YMMV.

[francesruben]

Originally Posted by D_McG 


My kid hitting me (no matter what the circumstances) is always a big deal. IMO it's important that she knows that this is absolutely unacceptable and you'll do what you need to do to get her to stop. I think if you just 'allow' the hitting it's a tacit endorsement of her anxiety. "it's OK you're hitting of course you're utterly traumatized by being left at preschool. it IS a big deal and worthy of such an OTT reaction'.

As the mother of an anxious child I see my job as constantly trying to put things back in perspective for DS. When that meant painting on a smile and acting like preschool was no big deal then I had to do it.

Just sharing what has worked for us. Another poster up thread has had a similar experience so I don't think mine is unusual! I just know for us that your well meaning approach, when I tried it, did more harm than good. But YMMV.

Yes, I can see that I've let her get away with it now you've pointed that out. Would your response to hitting in public be any different than at home? I do make it quite clear at home that it is not okay to hit (which DD does sometimes) but when this kind of thing happens in front of other people I just try to get out of there- not necessarily the right response but like I said it isn't something I planned for. 

How do you respond to hitting?

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by francesruben 

Yes, I can see that I've let her get away with it now you've pointed that out. Would your response to hitting in public be any different than at home? I do make it quite clear at home that it is not okay to hit (which DD does sometimes) but when this kind of thing happens in front of other people I just try to get out of there- not necessarily the right response but like I said it isn't something I planned for. 

How do you respond to hitting?

the last time DS hit me was a few months back. We were leaving playgroup. It was late and he was hungry. In retrospect we shouldn't have been there at all, but we were. So we went to leave and he didn't want to leave and he hit me. I asked a friend to watch my DD and picked him up and put him, kicking and screaming into his carseat. He had a balloon in the car and tried to throw it at me so I took it from him and threw it away. Then I went to get DD and we drove home. I was VERY upset, crying which is v. unusual for me. When we got home he went to his room and stayed there while I talked to DH. DH went to talk to him alone and then we brought him out so we could all talk together. It was reiterated that what had happened was absolutely unacceptable and would not be tolerated. We discussed acceptable ways to handle disappointment/frustration.

Then, the next time we left the house we had another big talk. I laid out expectations for his behavior when we went to leave that gathering. Asked him to tell me how he would behave. Reminded him that if he freaked out again we'd have to take a break from playgroup and we'd have to reconsider a different upcoming trip, too.

Basically it was BFD. It is a BFD to me to have a child hitting at that age. DS hadn't hit me in maybe a year prior. I've always had a massive reaction to it. It just crosses a huge line for me. We don't hit in this house!!

[francesruben]

Originally Posted by D_McG 

the last time DS hit me was a few months back. We were leaving playgroup. It was late and he was hungry. In retrospect we shouldn't have been there at all, but we were. So we went to leave and he didn't want to leave and he hit me. I asked a friend to watch my DD and picked him up and put him, kicking and screaming into his carseat. He had a balloon in the car and tried to throw it at me so I took it from him and threw it away. Then I went to get DD and we drove home. I was VERY upset, crying which is v. unusual for me. When we got home he went to his room and stayed there while I talked to DH. DH went to talk to him alone and then we brought him out so we could all talk together. It was reiterated that what had happened was absolutely unacceptable and would not be tolerated. We discussed acceptable ways to handle disappointment/frustration.

Then, the next time we left the house we had another big talk. I laid out expectations for his behavior when we went to leave that gathering. Asked him to tell me how he would behave. Reminded him that if he freaked out again we'd have to take a break from playgroup and we'd have to reconsider a different upcoming trip, too.

Basically it was BFD. It is a BFD to me to have a child hitting at that age. DS hadn't hit me in maybe a year prior. I've always had a massive reaction to it. It just crosses a huge line for me. We don't hit in this house!!

Thanks for the reply- I think it would be a good idea for me to involve DH in the way you have. I didn't grow up in a very unified family and so I forget to call on DH for back up, to have a family talk about it.