Don't worry about it - Just vaccinate!

[Marnica]

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/vac-admin/contraindications-misconceptions.htm

so according to the CDC the only real contraindication to vaccinating is if one has suffered an anaphylactic reaction from a previous vaccine or has intractable seizures.  Look at this list of Don't worry about it - vaccinate anyway concerns. Apparently family history menas nothing. I find this amusing since the first thing a new doctor does when they meet you is get a through family history to see what things you may be more at risk for.

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Collapse or shock-like state (i.e., hypotonic hyporesponsive episode) within 48 hours after receiving a previous dose of DTP/DTaP

 totally acceptable

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Seizure within 3 days after receiving a previous dose of DTP/DTaP

 probably a cooincidence - don't sweat it...

Unreal.......

[amnesiac]

Are you aware of any research indicating that those reactions to DTP or DTaP should be contraindications to receiving Tdap?

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by amnesiac 

Are you aware of any research indicating that those reactions to DTP or DTaP should be contraindications to receiving Tdap?

 Nothing that would be accepted in mainstream medicine. Personally family history is a huge factor for me and my family. To me it makes no sense whatsoever to go ahead and vaccinate with the same "type" of vaccine when one has suffered a serious reaction. Sorry but I think going into a hypotonic/unresponsive state is serious, regardless of what the CDC tells me. JMHO

[littlec]

I'm so glad there are other people in the world who see the craziness with all this. I've read recent articles about the Flu shots causing more than normal febrile seizures- but don't stop vaccinating! Then, there are reports of an increased risk of narcolepsy in children- but the benefits outweigh the risks!! What in the world??? I'd much rather give my kid the flu than seizures which may or may not cause lasting damage or a lifelong condition like narcolepsy. It's mind boggling. I have links to support these statements if anyone is interested.

Oh, I am also amazed when there's a story about a boy who gets HIB (and recovers) and that's a lesson to ALL that we should vaccinate. But then, a boy gets permanently paralyzed as a result of the H1N1 vaccine, but that should not stop anyone from getting the vaccine! I just don't get it.

[moonmamajess]

Would love to see those sources to back those statements up, littlec. I completely agree with your statements, just enjoy arming myself with new knowledge! My son is 5 1/2 mos. and am almost positive I won't be getting him vaccinated. I found it interesting that in "The Vaccine Book" Dr. Sears repeatedly claimes that seizures after a vaccine were due to the high fevers after being vaccinated, and not from the actual vaccines themselves...hmmm...Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldnt a seizure resulting from a high fever, as a reaction to a vaccine, be considered a side effect from the vaccine itself???

[littlec]

Originally Posted by moonmamajess 

Would love to see those sources to back those statements up, littlec. I completely agree with your statements, just enjoy arming myself with new knowledge! My son is 5 1/2 mos. and am almost positive I won't be getting him vaccinated. I found it interesting that in "The Vaccine Book" Dr. Sears repeatedly claimes that seizures after a vaccine were due to the high fevers after being vaccinated, and not from the actual vaccines themselves...hmmm...Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldnt a seizure resulting from a high fever, as a reaction to a vaccine, be considered a side effect from the vaccine itself???

I think you're right. The seizures are from the fevers...from the vaccines. Most people think they are harmless, but I don't think they really "know". Here's the links from what I mentioned about the flu vaccine, plus another one that I found helpful.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1626345/pdf/bmj33300912.pdf 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41176091/ns/health-cold_and_flu/ 

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20031347-10391695.html 

I had the actual studies somewhere, but I can't find them. I'm sure a google scholar search could produce them though. Good luck with your decisions. There's SO much information out there.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by amnesiac 

Are you aware of any research indicating that those reactions to DTP or DTaP should be contraindications to receiving Tdap?

I do not need research. It is called common sense.   If my previously healthy child collasped into a catatonic state or shock like state 48 hours after receiving a DTaP shot - they would not be receiving another one.

Just because you cannot prove the DTaP shot caused such a reaction did not mean it didn't.

I actually think it is abusive to give a further shot to a person who has had such a serious (probable) reaction.

Edited to add: reread the above quote and realise she is talking about tdap and not DTaP.   Unless you can isolate what caused the reaction ( you can't) I think it is safer to forgo the vaccine.  JMHO.

[ma2two]

Scenario 1

Parent: "Doctor, my son had seizures and went into a shock-like state right after taking Zithromax for the first time. Should we give it to him again?"

Doctor: "Absolutely not, and to be safe, he should avoid all antibiotics in the same class as Zithromax."

Scenario 2

Parent: "Doctor, my son had seizures and went into a shock-like state right after getting the DTaP vaccine. Can we give him the Tdap (lower dose of same antigens)?

Doctor: "Yes, absolutely."

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by littlec 


I think you're right. The seizures are from the fevers...from the vaccines. Most people think they are harmless, but I don't think they really "know".

Well, my ds had febrile seizures last summer (well over a month after any vaccines - definitely not related to that), and he certainly hasn't suffered any ill effects yet.  From what I was told by the pediatricians was that it was normal in his age range, and that kids grow out of it by age 4 or 5.  AFAIK its a fast spike or drop in temperature that causes the febrile seizures, and not just a fever.  It makes sense in my ds's situation since right after his second seizure in ER he had a temp of 105.  It was the most terrifying thing I've ever seen, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but they aren't caused by just any fever - so its possible that its not really the *vaccine* that is causing the seizure.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Well, my ds had febrile seizures last summer (well over a month after any vaccines - definitely not related to that), and he certainly hasn't suffered any ill effects yet.  From what I was told by the pediatricians was that it was normal in his age range, and that kids grow out of it by age 4 or 5.  AFAIK its a fast spike or drop in temperature that causes the febrile seizures, and not just a fever.  It makes sense in my ds's situation since right after his second seizure in ER he had a temp of 105.  It was the most terrifying thing I've ever seen, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but they aren't caused by just any fever - so its possible that its not really the *vaccine* that is causing the seizure.

vaccine produces high fever that results in a fast spike - no vaccine = no fever hence the vaccine did cause the fever whoch resulted in the seizure. Splittting hairs IMO. Now I know febrile seizures can reuslt from any fever from any illness, but if a vaccine causes a fever that results in a seizure that would not have happened otherwise, (ie no vaccine given)  then IMO it is to blame. 
 

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Marnica 

vaccine produces high fever that results in a fast spike - no vaccine = no fever hence the vaccine did cause the fever whoch resulted in the seizure. Splittting hairs IMO. Now I know febrile seizures can reuslt from any fever from any illness, but if a vaccine causes a fever that results in a seizure that would not have happened otherwise, (ie no vaccine given)  then IMO it is to blame. 
 

And thats fine, but a febrile seizure, caused by vax or something else, doesn't cause permanent damage.  So, freaking out over vaccines causing febrile seizures, which are normal in young feverish children, is not worth it.

[littlec]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Well, my ds had febrile seizures last summer (well over a month after any vaccines - definitely not related to that), and he certainly hasn't suffered any ill effects yet.  From what I was told by the pediatricians was that it was normal in his age range, and that kids grow out of it by age 4 or 5.  AFAIK its a fast spike or drop in temperature that causes the febrile seizures, and not just a fever.  It makes sense in my ds's situation since right after his second seizure in ER he had a temp of 105.  It was the most terrifying thing I've ever seen, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but they aren't caused by just any fever - so its possible that its not really the *vaccine* that is causing the seizure.

I'm sorry that happened to your son. I hope it doesn't happen to him again. I hope I wasn't confusing...I don't think ALL febrile seizures are caused from vaccines. And yes, I do agree that it's from the sudden change in fever. I've seen two children with these, and I don't know about one of them, but I know the other was definitely not from a vaccine reaction. However, that doesn't mean it vaccines don't cause sudden rises in fever, which then cause seizures...and while I certainly hope there are no lasting effects, I wonder, when a child/teen develops epliepsy or some other neurological disorder, do they look back to see if said child ever had a febrile seizure? I'll have to do more research, but I don't think they never cause lasting damage (hope that came out right).

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

And thats fine, but a febrile seizure, caused by vax or something else, doesn't cause permanent damage.  So, freaking out over vaccines causing febrile seizures, which are normal in young feverish children, is not worth it.

 and that's fine if you don't feel there is any risk from seizures in general. Personallly Im not particularly concerned with febrile seizures when they occur as a result of natural infection. However perhaps when they occur as a result of vaccination, it may not be so cut and dry. I know of 2 children IRL who developed seizure disorders after repeated vaccination. In the first case, the first time it happened, the doc told the mom it was a febrile seizure and not to worry. Next time, it happened again, yet the fever was not a high one and the mom did not note any sudden changes in temp. Was told it's ok, it was a febrile seizure. The mom refused anymore despite this and her DD continues to have seizures and now has to take seizure medication. She was told her DD seizures have nothing to do with vaccinations - she thinks that is highly unlikely. I tend to agree.

Other child I know similar story. Was told it was nothing to worry about and I think he actually finished the series and now has a seizure disorder. But of course it was a cooincidence.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by littlec 

I'm sorry that happened to your son. I hope it doesn't happen to him again. I hope I wasn't confusing...I don't think ALL febrile seizures are caused from vaccines. And yes, I do agree that it's from the sudden change in fever. I've seen two children with these, and I don't know about one of them, but I know the other was definitely not from a vaccine reaction. However, that doesn't mean it vaccines don't cause sudden rises in fever, which then cause seizures...and while I certainly hope there are no lasting effects, I wonder, when a child/teen develops epliepsy or some other neurological disorder, do they look back to see if said child ever had a febrile seizure? I'll have to do more research, but I don't think they never cause lasting damage (hope that came out right).

When my son was in the hospital, I asked all these questions.  The pediatric Neurologist (the attending, not one of the 10 students he had with him) told me that there was less than a 1% chance of him having a seizure disorder in the future.  They considered doing a EEG (or EKG?  don't remember the initials) on him to rule out anything else, b/c he had 2 seizures within 2hours of each other, but then he recovered very rapidly.  They told me the next time he has a seizure, they will do the EEG (again, not sure of the initials).  They did say that the more frequent the febrile seizures, the more chance there is of developing a disorder - but again said it was very very rare. 

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Marnica 

 and that's fine if you don't feel there is any risk from seizures in general.

Thats not what I said.  I said that there is no permanent damage done by febrile seizures.  I don't pretend to know anything about other seizures.  And I don't subscribe to the thought that febrile seizures caused from fevers from vaccines are really any different than a febrile seizure from a sudden spike in temp from a naturally occurring infection.  Then again I don't particularly subscribe to the thought that vaccines are terrible horrible awful things either.

Personallly Im not particularly concerned with febrile seizures when they occur as a result of natural infection. However perhaps when they occur as a result of vaccination, it may not be so cut and dry. I know of 2 children IRL who developed seizure disorders after repeated vaccination. In the first case, the first time it happened, the doc told the mom it was a febrile seizure and not to worry. Next time, it happened again, yet the fever was not a high one and the mom did not note any sudden changes in temp. Was told it's ok, it was a febrile seizure. The mom refused anymore despite this and her DD continues to have seizures and now has to take seizure medication. She was told her DD seizures have nothing to do with vaccinations - she thinks that is highly unlikely. I tend to agree.

Other child I know similar story. Was told it was nothing to worry about and I think he actually finished the series and now has a seizure disorder. But of course it was a cooincidence.

And it might be.  Fact is, you nor I can prove it either way.  Neither of us is a doctor, and neither of us has special training in understanding how vaccines work, or epidimiology (I'm assuming - please tell me if thats not the case), or degrees in scientific research - which isn't all that easy to read and understand without that training.

You can believe what you want, but scientific evidence, and anecdotal evidence are 2 different things as I'm sure you're aware.  I tend to think that vaccines are an important tool to be used in public health efforts.  No, they are not without risks - but life isn't without risks either.  I take risks every single day when I leave my apartment.  Heck, I take risks when I stay in my apartment every day!  There are people who have true autoimmune disorders and cannot get vaccinated - those individuals depend on others to get vaccinated to protect them via "herd immunity" - which I know you probably don't believe in.  And yes, I've done my research. 

[amnesiac]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I do not need research. It is called common sense.   If my previously healthy child collasped into a catatonic state or shock like state 48 hours after receiving a DTaP shot - they would not be receiving another one.

Just because you cannot prove the DTaP shot caused such a reaction did not mean it didn't.

I actually think it is abusive to give a further shot to a person who has had such a serious (probable) reaction.

Edited to add: reread the above quote and realise she is talking about tdap and not DTaP.   Unless you can isolate what caused the reaction ( you can't) I think it is safer to forgo the vaccine.  JMHO.

The reason I ask is that TPTB will say that those types of DTP/DTaP reactions are due to the relatively large amount of pertussis antigen and so the lower amount in Tdap isn't likely to result in that same outcome. So in facing that argument, I think it might be helpful for parents of adolescents to be aware of any existing research.

[Jugs]

Is this a recent update? If so, my son's medical exemption to probably isn't valid anymore

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Jugs 

Is this a recent update? If so, my son's medical exemption to probably isn't valid anymore

Not entirely sure if it means anything, but the most recent update to the webpage was done on Feb. 11, 2011 (I have no idea if this is when it was added, or not).  I'm pretty sure that as long as you can get a Dr. to sign off on a med exemption you're good to go and don't need to worry.

[kathymuggle]

http://www.pediatrichealthchannel.com/febrile-seizures/symptoms.shtml

This article claims that febrile seizure raise the risk of epilepsy - and that 5% of people who have febrile seizures go on to develop a seizure disorder.

5% is too high for me.  

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

And thats fine, but a febrile seizure, caused by vax or something else, doesn't cause permanent damage.  So, freaking out over vaccines causing febrile seizures, which are normal in young feverish children, is not worth it.

But the febrile seizure may be the reaction that we do see and an indicator that there is a reaction that we DON'T see, internally.

FWIW, I have a close friend whose daughter had a febrile seizure as an infant, spent 18 days in a coma, and suffered brain damage and severe cerebral palsy.  She's almost 10 now and may never walk.  I'd say that's permanent damage.  

And saying "is not worth it" is pretty offensive to parents who are concerned about that side effect.  I could just as easily say that freaking out over pertussis causing a few weeks of coughing is not worth it.  Your values are not always the same as others who have the same knowledge.