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Don't worry about it - Just vaccinate! - Page 2

post #21 of 41

Just to be clear, that page in the OP says that "collapse/seizure after DTaP is not a reason to forgo TDAP," but it does NOT say "if you've had a reaction to DTaP, you should do DTaP again anyway." It doesn't say anything either way about DTaP after prior DTaP reaction.

 

Is TDAP supposed to have less antigens than DTaP, being that it appears that they're the same 3 antigens--diptheria, tetanus, and pertussis? Are they thinking age will make a difference? Different adjuvants? What is supposed to be the shift in the same antigens being okay?

post #22 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by EviesMom View Post

Just to be clear, that page in the OP says that "collapse/seizure after DTaP is not a reason to forgo TDAP," but it does NOT say "if you've had a reaction to DTaP, you should do DTaP again anyway." It doesn't say anything either way about DTaP after prior DTaP reaction.

 

I think this is because DTaP is 3 antigens--diptheria, tetanus, and pertussis; whereas TDAP is only 2 antigens, tetanus and diptheria. And I believe that the pertussis component is known to be most reactive of the three.

 

I'm *not* commenting on whether giving TDAP after DTaP reactions is a good idea or not; I'm just trying to clarify what's probably behind this recommendation. 



TDAP contains pertussis as well; hence the "P".

post #23 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post





TDAP contains pertussis as well; hence the "P".


Yeah, I just saw that. Now that, is totally weird. I was thinking of Td, which makes a little more sense that it would be recommended as okay after a DTaP reaction.

post #24 of 41
Thread Starter 



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post




And it might be.  Fact is, you nor I can prove it either way.  Neither of us is a doctor, and neither of us has special training in understanding how vaccines work, or epidimiology (I'm assuming - please tell me if thats not the case), or degrees in scientific research - which isn't all that easy to read and understand without that training.

 

You can believe what you want, but scientific evidence, and anecdotal evidence are 2 different things as I'm sure you're aware.  I tend to think that vaccines are an important tool to be used in public health efforts.  No, they are not without risks - but life isn't without risks either.  I take risks every single day when I leave my apartment.  Heck, I take risks when I stay in my apartment every day!  There are people who have true autoimmune disorders and cannot get vaccinated - those individuals depend on others to get vaccinated to protect them via "herd immunity" - which I know you probably don't believe in.  And yes, I've done my research

 

 


 

I've not suggested you haven't have I?

 

I too have done my research. 7 yrs worth and counting and obviously have come to a different conclusion than you which is fine. Happens everyday. I also don't think I presented the anecdotal stories of the people I know as evidence. I was merely reflecting on my personal experinece, which obviously shapes my point of view. I also don't think one need be a doctor, scientist or have a degree in research to be able to think critically and have a decent grasp on this issue. And those folks can't prove anything either. (ie they can't prove 1 thing does NOT cause the other) Medical folks, scientists and public health folks routinely dismiss vaccine reactions as "cooincidental" because 99% of the time vaccine reactions cannot be proven. Very convenient. I am well aware that life is full of risks. Driving, walking, breathing - being alive is a risk in and of itself. I choose to minimize risks as best I can for me and my family in a wide variety of ways. One of those ways is choosing to forgo vaccines. My family history is laden with autoimmune disease. The CDC tells me that does not put my child at risk if he were vaccinated. My own family history tells me different. Can I PROVE it? of course not, but it is not a risk I'm willing to take. Please don't get me worng. I have the utmost respect for people like yourself that have done their due diligence and come to a different conclusion. Will we agree? Nope, but that's ok. That's what life is all about. What I have a problem with is being demonized (not by you!) for the choices I make in the best interest of my family. I'm not necessarily anti-vax. (I am for my family at this time - that may change in the future) Im pro choice. I just want every person to have the right to make health decisions for thier families with out the grief and crap that routinely comes with it from those that make different choices. (again not you - just lots of the masses!)
 

post #25 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post





Not entirely sure if it means anything, but the most recent update to the webpage was done on Feb. 11, 2011 (I have no idea if this is when it was added, or not).  I'm pretty sure that as long as you can get a Dr. to sign off on a med exemption you're good to go and don't need to worry.


Unfortunately, its more complicated in NY; the doctor essentially has to apply to the state to grant a medical exemption, and the reason must be a valid one according to the CDC. I guess we'll just keep on homeschooling...

post #26 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EviesMom View Post

Just to be clear, that page in the OP says that "collapse/seizure after DTaP is not a reason to forgo TDAP," but it does NOT say "if you've had a reaction to DTaP, you should do DTaP again anyway." It doesn't say anything either way about DTaP after prior DTaP reaction.

 

Is TDAP supposed to have less antigens than DTaP, being that it appears that they're the same 3 antigens--diptheria, tetanus, and pertussis? Are they thinking age will make a difference? Different adjuvants? What is supposed to be the shift in the same antigens being okay?


Not sure what the rational behind it is, but the antigens are the same in both. The AMOUNT differs. There is less Diptheria antigen and less pertussis toxin the Tdap. Amounts of the other antigens are the same or close to the same it seems (ie Filamentous Hemagglutinin, Pertactin, Fimbriae Types 2 and 3 and Tetanus

Also they are likely to differ by manufacturer in terms of exact amounts
 

post #27 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jugs View Post




Unfortunately, its more complicated in NY; the doctor essentially has to apply to the state to grant a medical exemption, and the reason must be a valid one according to the CDC. I guess we'll just keep on homeschooling...

 

I was able to get a non-medical exemption in NY back in October. I wrote out a religious statement and signed it. It was a private school so that might make a difference. 

post #28 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by elus0814 View Post



 

I was able to get a non-medical exemption in NY back in October. I wrote out a religious statement and signed it. It was a private school so that might make a difference. 


Since I am vaxing my younger children, I can't file a religious exemption. NY really backs us into a corner irked.gif

 

post #29 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jugs View Post




Since I am vaxing my younger children, I can't file a religious exemption. NY really backs us into a corner irked.gif

 

 

Why not stop vaxing the younger ones? Even though my oldest had a couple the religious vax still went through. No one can say that you didn't have a change in personally held religious beliefs.
 

post #30 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

http://www.pediatrichealthchannel.com/febrile-seizures/symptoms.shtml

 

This article claims that febrile seizure raise the risk of epilepsy - and that 5% of people who have febrile seizures go on to develop a seizure disorder.

 

5% is too high for me.  

 

 

 



http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/786414-overview 

 

This article claims that 15% of people die from tetanus.

 

15% is too high for me.

post #31 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathergirl67 View Post





http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/786414-overview 

 

This article claims that 15% of people die from tetanus.

 

15% is too high for me.


Absolutely.  But the whole thing is a numbers game.   How many people get tetanus?  Very, very few in North America.  How many children under 3 have febrile seizures?  A fair number  (4%).  http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/febrile_seizures/detail_febrile_seizures.html

 

In some way this conversation has gone off topic.  A poster mentionned that febrile seizure are nothing to freak out over.  While  for most people they are benign, they are not for about 5% of those whole have febrile seizures.

 

The gist of the Op is that we should not be vaccinating people who have had serious prior reactions to vaccines.  I tend to think the likelihood of a person with a history of serious vax reactions having a bad reaction to another vaccine is higher than the likelihood they will get a vaccine preventable disease and have a serious complication from it.


Edited by purslaine - 2/25/11 at 4:00pm
post #32 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post




Absolutely.  But the whole thing is a numbers game.   How many people get tetanus?  Very, very few in North America.  How many children under 3 have febrile seizures?  A fair number  (4%).  http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/febrile_seizures/detail_febrile_seizures.html

 

In some way this conversation has gone off topic.  A poster mentionned that febrile seizure are nothing to freak out over.  While  for most people they are benign, they are not for everyone.

 

The gist of the Op is that we should not be vaccinating people who have had serious prior reactions to vaccines.  I tend to think the likelihood of said person have a bad reaction to another vaccine is higher than the likelihood they will get a vaccine preventable disease and have a serious complication from it.

 

 

 



I agree.

 

15% may sound like a huge number, but when you are talking about 43 people per year, you have more chance of dying from a lightning strike.

 

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/vaccine-efficacy-how-often-do-vaccines-work/tetanus/

post #33 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by EviesMom View Post

Just to be clear, that page in the OP says that "collapse/seizure after DTaP is not a reason to forgo TDAP," but it does NOT say "if you've had a reaction to DTaP, you should do DTaP again anyway." It doesn't say anything either way about DTaP after prior DTaP reaction.

 

Is TDAP supposed to have less antigens than DTaP, being that it appears that they're the same 3 antigens--diptheria, tetanus, and pertussis? Are they thinking age will make a difference? Different adjuvants? What is supposed to be the shift in the same antigens being okay?



Like Marnica said, it has to do with the amount of antigen. Both DTaP and Tdap contain diptheria, tetanus and pertussis antigens. The size of those letters has significance - it tells you that DTaP has a lot of all 3 antigens, whereas Tdap has a lot of tetanus but less diptheria and pertussis. Since those types of neurologic reactions are known to be associated with large amounts of pertussis antigen, it is thought that they are more likely to occur when the amount of pertussis antigen is large. The rationale in saying  "collapse/seizure after DTaP is not a reason to forgo Tdap" is based on the idea that smaller amounts of pertussis antigen in Tdap in comparison with DTaP aren't likely to result in those neurologic reactions. I think it would be beneficial for parents to see any available data supporting or refuting that rationale.

post #34 of 41
Thread Starter 


A febrile seizure absolutely can cause permanent damage.

 

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/Golkiewicz.Mersburgh.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama View Post





And thats fine, but a febrile seizure, caused by vax or something else, doesn't cause permanent damage.  So, freaking out over vaccines causing febrile seizures, which are normal in young feverish children, is not worth it.

post #35 of 41



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnica View Post


A febrile seizure absolutely can cause permanent damage.

 

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/Golkiewicz.Mersburgh.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 


 


 


 

Are febrile seizures harmful?


Although they can be frightening to parents, the vast majority of febrile seizures are short and harmless. During a seizure, there is a small chance that the child may be injured by falling or may choke from food or saliva in the mouth. Using proper first aid for seizures can help avoid these hazards (see section entitled "What should be done for a child having a febrile seizure?").

There is no evidence that short febrile seizures cause brain damage. Large studies have found that children with febrile seizures have normal school achievement and perform as well on intellectual tests as their siblings who don't have seizures. Even when seizures are very long (more than 1 hour), most children recover completely, but a few might be at risk of subsequent seizures without fever (epilepsy).

In other words, between 95 and 98 percent of children who experience febrile seizures do not go on to develop epilepsy. However, although the absolute risk remains small, some groups of children--including those with cerebral palsy, delated development, or other neurological abnormalities--have an increased risk of developing epilepsy. The type of febrile seizure also matters:; children who have prolonged febrile seizures (particularly lasting more than an hour) or seizures that affect only part of the body, or that recur within 24 hours, are at a somewhat higher risk. Among children who don't have any of these risk factors, only one in 100 develops epilepsy after a febrile seizure.

 

 

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/febrile_seizures/detail_febrile_seizures.htm

post #36 of 41

Is there a NIH or CDC reference that states emphatically that seizures are beneficial to a baby?

 

Seizures are a sign of something going wrong. They are a signal to the parents to do something and see what is wrong with their baby.   I hope that the government agencies and AAP are not telling parents to ignore seizures in the same way that paediatric practices are now telling parents to ignore constant, incessant, non-stop "purple crying".

 

http://www.purplecrying.info/sections/index.php?sct=1

post #37 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by miriam View Post

Is there a NIH or CDC reference that states emphatically that seizures are beneficial to a baby?

 

Seizures are a sign of something going wrong. They are a signal to the parents to do something and see what is wrong with their baby.   I hope that the government agencies and AAP are not telling parents to ignore seizures in the same way that paediatric practices are now telling parents to ignore constant, incessant, non-stop "purple crying".

 

http://www.purplecrying.info/sections/index.php?sct=1

 

No one is saying seizures are a GOOD thing.  We're just saying that a febrile seizure is highly unlikely to cause permanent damage.  Or any damage at all.  No one is saying that seizures of any sort should be ignored either.
 

 

post #38 of 41

Wow it is incredible to me that they would have you continue vaccinating after something like a seizure, for example.

post #39 of 41

Actually, if you click around a few more times on the website, you will discover that the things mentioned in the OP are absolutely listed as precautions regarding vaccines.  What the link in the OP is saying (and not very clearly, for sure) is that those things are not AUTOMATIC contraindications.  Further, another page on the websites says this

 

Quote:
 Events or conditions listed as precautions should be reviewed carefully. Benefits of and risks for administering a specific vaccine to a person under these circumstances should be considered. If the risk from the vaccine is believed to outweigh the benefit, the vaccine should not be administered. If the benefit of vaccination is believed to outweigh the risk, the vaccine should be administered. Whether and when to administer DTaP to children with proven or suspected underlying neurologic disorders should be decided on a case-by-case basis

 Each of the things listed in the OP are listed as precautions here

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/vac-admin/contraindications-vacc.htmI

 

Edited because I apparently misundestood the removal of the 2009 guide.  Or something.

 

Anyway, a few more clicks and I find this page, which seems to be a pretty good resource in general

 

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr6002a1.htm?s_cid=rr6002a1_e#Tab7

 

And from this page

 

 

Quote:
 In general, vaccinations should be deferred when a precaution is present.

 

 

IOW, the OP's title is incorrect, the CDC is NOT saying "Don't worry about it.  Just vaccinate."


Edited by happysmileylady - 3/4/11 at 9:19pm
post #40 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by happysmileylady View Post

Actually, if you click around a few more times on the website, you will discover that the things mentioned in the OP are absolutely listed as precautions regarding vaccines.  What the link in the OP is saying (and not very clearly, for sure) is that those things are not AUTOMATIC contraindications.  Further, another page on the websites says this

 

 Each of the things listed in the OP are listed as precautions here

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/vac-admin/contraindications-vacc.htmI

 

Edited because I apparently misundestood the removal of the 2009 guide.  Or something.

 

Anyway, a few more clicks and I find this page, which seems to be a pretty good resource in general

 

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr6002a1.htm?s_cid=rr6002a1_e#Tab7

 

And from this page

 

 

 

 

IOW, the OP's title is incorrect, the CDC is NOT saying "Don't worry about it.  Just vaccinate."



Not entirely.  The title of the page the OP referenced is :

 

 

Conditions Commonly Misperceived as Contraindications to Vaccination

 

Maybe that is not what the article says if you click around - but you should not have to click around.  The title should be clear and indicate what is in the article.

 

I think the medical community is so desperate to for everyone to vax that they deliberately write muddy pieces to muddy contra-indications to vax.

 

 

 

 

 

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