How do you get a magical, consistent bed time and bedtime routine?

[porcelina]

DS2, 4.5 months, is irregular with his sleep patterns. Most of the time, naps are only 30-45 minutes. By the time 5 pm rolls around, he's exhausted. Since they are short naps, sometimes he'll be down 4.30-5, other times 3.30-4, and sometimes he crashes at 5 only to wake up again and be up until much later.

I keep trying to do a bedtime routine. Bath, then rock, then put to sleep. The problem is, it can take forever for the last step. Also, I typically time the start time based on when the last nap ended. He can't make it to 7 if his last nap was 3.30-4, so then I put him down extra early (like 5.45) and then just bounce him back down at his first wake up shortly thereafter. Other times, if he crashes at 4.55 for 30 mins, then he won't go down at night until closer to 7. Throughout the day, his maximum wake time is 1.5 hours, and early in the morning only lasts a little over 1 hour. But, by evening, he's so overtired from a day full of like 5 poor naps, he sometimes takes over 2 hours to get down.

So, how do I get a more consistent bedtime?? I want to have him down at 6.45 every day, for example, and know he will be out for a while after that. DS1 was the same way.

The only hope on the horizon is that I started putting him down for naps today on his tummy, and the first two were 1.5 hours each -- a good period of time! But, third nap, he woke 20 mins into it (when I had just gotten home -- maybe he sensed it?), then crashed for another 20 mins or so around 5-5.30 pm. Wasn't down for night until about 7.30.

[Knitting Mama]

He might just be too young for it. A lot of babies I know of didn't start getting a very consistent bed time until after a year. My 10 month old still goes down based on when her last nap ended.

[tzs]

i'd say around the time they develop the 3-nap pattern, you'll notice a more consistent bedtime. now if i could only remember when that happened. i want to say around 4 months for us. she used to go to sleep for the night around 9, 10, 11:00 even, depending on when her last nap was. and according to the "experts" around 4 months you want to drastically push bedtime earlier to 7 or 8ish. i was dreading and debating doing it because since i SAH i'd rather her stay up late and let me sleep in. but sure enough it became really clear around that magical age that she just couldn't stay up past 8. i never put her on any sort of schedule but she seemed to be a "by-the-book" baby and just took those 3 naps when "they" say they should and developed an early bedtime.

i would say the only thing you could do is work on the 3 nap thing. for us the first one did come a little earlier, like you said, and she was only able to make it 1.5 hours after waking. oh my gosh..i can't even remember when the other ones were. i read "healthy sleep, happy child" and the advice about nap timing is really great. he does at some point advocate CIO so just ignore that part. but the nap and bedtime advice is so good that it's worth looking at. 

the other thing i'd say is that if he's going down anywhere from 6:45 to 7:30...that seems pretty consistent to me. a half hour or even 45 minutes in either direction of the desired time is IMO all the same.

[treeoflife3]

Yeah, my kiddo wasn't consistent at all at 4.5 months.  It took a good six months for her to really get into a good routine... and then it changed every week to every other week randomly oy.  She didn't stick to a consistent routine that I could count on week after week til she was over a year old.  Now at 23 months she has to have a nap by 2 so she can go to bed by 8.

[P.J.]

My baby's 8.5 months and we're struggling with this. Yes, it all has to do with the last nap, which I find I can't exactly control. DS is also one of those 30 minute catnappers, which makes it harder. Plus, lately when I put him down for the night, he always wakes up 30 minutes later and acts like "okay, nap's over, I'm ready for more action" and will not go back down. I think I just need more patience, but I feel the same way about when it takes nearly an hour to get him back down, what's the point? I'd almost rather just keep him up the extra hour or two til I go to bed, which we often do. But DH and I miss our alone time at night. So yeah, we're working on the same issue. Good luck to you, and please let us know if you find the magic solution, lol!

[sere234]

Well, hate to say this since my baby C is addicted to his swing but: have you tried a swing? My kid will sleep 2-3 hours easily in that thing!

Do you still swaddle? We swaddled DS, then sold out house and moved, life fell apart, remembered to swaddle him again after a few weeks (duh!!!), and he went back to sleeping pretty well. He's almost 6 mo and still swaddled! Those arms of his will flail and he sleeps so lightly that he'll wake up! We're blessed with a babe who wakes easily ANYWHERE and at ANYTHING! Car stopped moving? Swing stopped moving? That constant noise stopped? Heard a tiny new noise while sleeping? Better wake up and check things out!!!

DS's morning nap is so easy! 1.5-2 hours after he wakes, he'll very happily go to sleep. The I put him to bed again 2 hours after waking but his afternoon nap isn't very manageable! That's the one where he'll wake, fuss, not sleep well. Also, DS didn't develop a good night sleeping pattern until 5 months.... Even now, it still depends a lot on his last nap. Most of the time we start our bedtime routine at 6:30, nurse him to sleep, and he's out by 7:30. This doesn't always work according to plan though!

HTH!

[porcelina]

Thanks everyone for the responses. It is really starting to click that good bedtime depends on naps! Only if they are not over-tired will they go down well in the evening, and that only happens if they sleep enough during the day. 

Just to answer questions, yes, I've tried the swing and he won't sleep there (I know, mysterious, my other son, who wouldn't sleep anywhere, at least slept there). He pretty much won't sleep anywhere but swaddled on top of a little pillow nest made of my pregnancy pillow, or in the carrier (if there is not too much noise), and now, on his tummy. We started swaddling him at about 3 weeks when he started to need it, but he HATES it and protests very loudly, then fights to get out when I put it on him now. But, he still seems to need that containment. Overall, he has decent chunks of sleep, once he's down.

But, dare I mention this? Is tummy sleeping the answer for my LO? He slept for 2 hours for his morning nap, and has been down an hour now so far for his afternoon nap (with no stirring at the typical 45 min mark). Suddenly, I can "just pat him back down" as people have mysteriously described, and it actually worked. With the swaddle and back sleeping, he HAD to be picked up to calm down. His sleep is definitely deeper, because if he does stir, he clearly wants to go back down. If we can fix our daytime sleeping, maybe we'll be set for bedtime! I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I walk him a bit in the carrier, or just sway a bit until he wants to bury head in chest. Then, take off carrier, put him in side position, then slowly move over to the mattress. Carefully lay down with him, then carefully remove myself and turn him to his tummy...

We struggled just as much with DS1, and it went on for like 18 months. So, this time, I'm going to have to go with tummy....!

[Greenlea]

Do it.  Go with the tummy!  Some babies just prefer their tummys.  Mine prefers his side, but then eventually ends up on his back once in a deep sleep.

I remember my first son by this age had a consistant nap schedule I could set my watch to, but not my second baby.  My LO is 3mths and the only consistant nap time he has is at 7pm he gets super tired and fussy, sleeps for like 1/2 hour and then is fine.  But he also consistantly wants bedtime around 8:30pm (same time as his 2yr old brother which works out great).

[Asiago]

It wasn't until about six months when a pattern started to naturally develop for my baby.  I just went with it, didn't impose any schedule on him but followed his lead and tried to encourage it and work around it. He has always been an 'in arms' and 'at breast' baby, under those condition his naps were always much longer. A carrier worked great.

Regarding position, side sleeping is a natual position. It is the natural feeding position when babies sleep. Also the nurses at the hospital where I gave birth put newborns on their sides. 

I found this info: http://www.nichd.nih.gov/sids/sids_qa.cfmQuote:

Is the side position as effective as the back?

The vast majority of studies which showed a relationship between sleep position and SIDS examined whether babies were placed "prone" versus "non-prone" (i.e., side or back). However, a few recent reports indicate that the risk of SIDS is greater for babies placed on their sides versus those placed truly supine. There is some evidence that the reason for this difference is that babies placed on their sides have a higher likelihood of spontaneously turning to prone. However, both non-prone positions (side or back) are associated with a much lower risk of SIDS than is prone. If the side position is used, caretakers should be advised to bring the dependent arm forward, to lessen the likelihood of the baby rolling prone. 

[Knitting Mama]

Cecilia sleeps swaddled and on her tummy in my bed. But, she is 10 months old and I have absolutely no worry about her being on her tum and in her swaddle, as I have witnessed her rolling onto her back very easily countless times.

[JulieInChicago]

I have to say, this sounds word for word what we're going through with Elliot (born 9/20).  We bought "The No Cry Sleep Solution" and while we haven't done the whole plan thing yet, little tips in there have helped, for sure.  This website summarizes what's in the book.

What we're doing now:

- trying to normalize daytime naps and have a nap routine- a shortened version of bedtime routine

- having a full hour of "get ready" time before bedtime, with quiet, dim lights, calm.

- one big feeding as the last thing before bed

- if he wakes and it's not a reasonable feeding time (i.e. 3-5 hours since last feeding), my husband uses shushing and hand-on-belly to get him back to sleep

 Our biggest problem is our life getting in the way-- we want a 7pm bedtime but if we have dinner plans or anything then that goes out the window.  We're just sooo  busy.  We need to start saying no.

[Knitting Mama]

Wait, so it's not reasonable for your child to be hungry before 3 hours is up? My daughter is 10 months old and often hungry after a couple of hours. The amount of time between feedings changes a lot as babies hit growth spurts, milestones, etc.

[JulieInChicago]

Originally Posted by Cecilia's Mama 

Wait, so it's not reasonable for your child to be hungry before 3 hours is up? My daughter is 10 months old and often hungry after a couple of hours. The amount of time between feedings changes a lot as babies hit growth spurts, milestones, etc.

Sorry!  I should have said "reasonable for our baby's feeding schedule."  We want to discourage comfort nursing since I need sleep ... but everyone has to do what works for them!

[Greenlea]

At such a young age I just don't get the 7pm bedtime.  My first son wouldn't be down for bed till around 9-10pm at this age (meaning around 3-4 mths like the OP).  Even now at 22 mths he goes to bed around 8:30pm and only sleeps like 10 hours.  My 3 mth old goes down by 8:30pm as well.  He does go down at 7pm for a short nap, but then he's wide awake until bedtime.  Am I wrong thinking 7pm is too early for some babies at this age?

[P.J.]

Originally Posted by Greenlea 

At such a young age I just don't get the 7pm bedtime.  My first son wouldn't be down for bed till around 9-10pm at this age (meaning around 3-4 mths like the OP).  Even now at 22 mths he goes to bed around 8:30pm and only sleeps like 10 hours.  My 3 mth old goes down by 8:30pm as well.  He does go down at 7pm for a short nap, but then he's wide awake until bedtime.  Am I wrong thinking 7pm is too early for some babies at this age?

No! Max has never ever been able to go down before 8:30, or on the rare occasion 8:00. And as I mentioned before, that is even pretty contrived as we would like some time alone in the evening, and hence doesn't usually work out so well. If we just went with his natural flow, I think his natural bedtime is closer to mine, around 9:30-10:00. But I believe, at least in our case and I would think this is true for others too: because we cosleep, Max is so used to sleeping next to me that besides for short naps, he can't really go down without me there. I have to say it's the one thing about cosleeping that I find rather inconvenient. I mean, at this point I'm left wondering if we'll ever get him to go to bed before we do at night!?

[porcelina]

Originally Posted by Greenlea 

At such a young age I just don't get the 7pm bedtime.  My first son wouldn't be down for bed till around 9-10pm at this age (meaning around 3-4 mths like the OP).  Even now at 22 mths he goes to bed around 8:30pm and only sleeps like 10 hours.  My 3 mth old goes down by 8:30pm as well.  He does go down at 7pm for a short nap, but then he's wide awake until bedtime.  Am I wrong thinking 7pm is too early for some babies at this age?

I think every baby follows his own rhythms as well as those of the household. My toddler age 3 gets up at 6 or 6.30, and sometimes even 5.30. Sometimes he wakes up the baby in the process. So, baby needs early bedtime to get enough sleep time. I imagine your household must get up a bit later!

Many sleep books, like Healthy Sleep Habits, suggest that these little guys need early bedtimes, like sometime around 7. My older son naturally developed a 6.30 bedtime for much of the first year and beyond. That said, I don't see what difference it makes if bedtime is at 9 or 10, as long as they are getting 11-12 hours overnight or enough extra sleep in naps to cover the difference.

[emsparrow]

I have a few thoughts... hopefully they help, though I think I have a really easy baby this go-around. Our dr. said that babies don't usually consilidate their nap times until more like 6-8 months old, so half hour naps are very normal. But that said, my girl sleeps better at night if she has longer naps during the day (good sleep begets good sleep, my friend says). I noticed that when I have caffeine, her naps are much shorter and more frequent than when I lay off the coffee (which is so hard to do! so I have half a cup or I have decaf). And we keep the lights dim in the evening until she's in bed. We also have a cd of harp music that I play while I change her diaper, give her an all-over rub/massage, and put her pjs on. Then I nurse her, rock her while reading a book (same one every night, and I don't read it at any other time), say a prayer, and sing a few songs. She's usu. out by that time, but again, easy baby? Hope it sorts out for you! sleep is hard, esp. when you just crave that naptime break.

[porcelina]

Oh, you know what, this is very helpful!! And, now that I think of it, lately our naps are falling apart in the afternoon. I usually drink coffee and/or a caffeinated beverage sometime between 10 and 1, which would totally get to him by the pm! I'm going to try eliminating. Thanks!

Originally Posted by emsparrow 

I have a few thoughts... hopefully they help, though I think I have a really easy baby this go-around. Our dr. said that babies don't usually consilidate their nap times until more like 6-8 months old, so half hour naps are very normal. But that said, my girl sleeps better at night if she has longer naps during the day (good sleep begets good sleep, my friend says). I noticed that when I have caffeine, her naps are much shorter and more frequent than when I lay off the coffee (which is so hard to do! so I have half a cup or I have decaf). And we keep the lights dim in the evening until she's in bed. We also have a cd of harp music that I play while I change her diaper, give her an all-over rub/massage, and put her pjs on. Then I nurse her, rock her while reading a book (same one every night, and I don't read it at any other time), say a prayer, and sing a few songs. She's usu. out by that time, but again, easy baby? Hope it sorts out for you! sleep is hard, esp. when you just crave that naptime break.

[MacKinnon]

With my older two were were always closer to a year before we really had a consistent routine. My babies are just with me. They sleep in the sling, in arms, in the car seat, etc. And with two older ones, it's impossible to have a solid schedule. For instance, DD had swimming last night from 6:30 to 7:30. My 5 month old fell asleep in the car on the way home, slept until 8:15pm, woke as we were putting the big two to bed, then nursed back to sleep around 9:15pm and mostly slept from that point on. From 9:15 to 10pm in my lap, then 10 to 11pm in the sling as I did our prep for school, then 11 on in bed with me. Waking, of course, to nurse at midnight ish, and a couple times overnight (I make a point of not looking at the clock after lights out, I really don't want to know when I'm up.) I would just wait, a routine/schedule will come with time.