Sex in the family bed. - Page 3

[slylives]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

I don't disagree with how you feel, everyone has their own feelings on the matter, but how can a child witness something when they are sound asleep? How can a boundary be crossed when the child doesn't have a clue what is going on because they are sleeping?

 

 Children wake up. You yourself said that you've woken up your child when you're having sex with your husband. Even when children appear to be sound asleep, they can often hear what going's on, especially if they are in a restless period of sleep. As for the boundary crossing - I see that more in terms of the parents behaviour rather than the child's consciousness. Putting it in a quick and dirty way (have to go and make dinner) I think opening myself to my husband while my child is in the same room, is crossing the boundaries of what I, an adult, should be doing. Regardless of the child's level of awareness.  I actually feel a little grubby just thinking about it!!

[Ldavis24]

now that I understand and appreciate the clarification. DH and I actually were talking about this thread earlier today and he was surprised there are so many people who even manage to DTD regularly with kids in the house that he wished this was an issue we had more often..Sigh I agree with him.

I just can't imagine how too many people would ever be able to DTD under the threat of their kid hearing it you know? I mean if you live in a tiny apartment or in a loft like we do there is just no hiding the noise unless you make a point to be quiet, which we have to.

Originally Posted by slylives 

 Children wake up. You yourself said that you've woken up your child when you're having sex with your husband. Even when children appear to be sound asleep, they can often hear what going's on, especially if they are in a restless period of sleep. As for the boundary crossing - I see that more in terms of the parents behaviour rather than the child's consciousness. Putting it in a quick and dirty way (have to go and make dinner) I think opening myself to my husband while my child is in the same room, is crossing the boundaries of what I, an adult, should be doing. Regardless of the child's level of awareness.  I actually feel a little grubby just thinking about it!!

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

I don't think it is fair to discount the "other culture's do it" argument. We are all part of the same world and every culture borrows from other cultures. Do you not eat mexican food or practice an eastern religion or hell do Yoga?! which is a huge cultural thing in India that Americans basically warped into their own weird exercise thing. 

I mean seriously because other culture's do something is the reason many things are the way they are in America. America's culture as a whole is to force your child into independence before they even cut a tooth and I think we can all agree that doesn't work out so well for our kids. I just don't get being against doing something because we borrow that from another culture. Like it is bad somehow..

Some things, like food and exercise, are good to borrow and experience.  I would be SERIOUSLY uncomfortable if I traveled to a foreign country, and while staying in someones one room house was exposed to people having sex.  That would SERIOUSLY bother me, and I probably wouldn't leave with very good feelings about that culture.

There is also a huge difference between not going along with the cultural expectation that babies CIO or become independent on day one, and having sex right next to them.  Really, thats not OK in my book.  And at what age is it not OK?  When they start to have memories?  When they no longer sleep through it?

I mean, I'm all for parents getting their needs met - sex is an important part of a healthy relationship I believe - I just don't believe it should include the kiddos.  Now, baby in a pack n play, on the other side of the room, dead asleep - maybe.  Why?  Because even if they woke up, they probably wouldn't see anything (unless they can pull to stand, then they would be too old - but an infant who isn't capable of moving around on their own yet maybe, IF I could get into the mood).

And, there are many things about our culture that I don't accept (circ for example), but that doesn't mean that I have to accept everything that another culture does. 

[matthia]

Originally Posted by peainthepod 

I think this post was very brave. It's never a popular response in this kind of thread but I happen to completely agree. The thought of two adults having sex in the same bed as a child, even if the child is asleep, makes me very uncomfortable. 

(The "But other cultures do it!" argument doesn't really fly with me, since other cultures do lots of things that ours doesn't. That's what makes them, you know, other cultures. It's not really relevant to us in the here and now.)

I have to say that this comment REALLY bothers me. This is completely irregardless of the original topic of this thread but is it because Mothering is an American publication that you also assume that I define my identity as "American" or Canadian or British? Or would it be alright if I was one of those "American" blacks, or "american" latinos? But if I happen to be an immigrant, from Africa, from South America, from Asia living in America does that negate the value of my "other" culture? Should I prehaps re-identify myself?

Or what about if I am a second generation immigrant? Should my cultural ties to my family no longer hold water because I happen to live in another country?

Or perhaps I should change my prrofile picture so I can show you if I am or am not a part of a visible "other" and then maybe my culture could "fly" with you?

[peainthepod]

Originally Posted by matthia 

I have to say that this comment REALLY bothers me. This is completely irregardless of the original topic of this thread but is it because Mothering is an American publication that you also assume that I define my identity as "American" or Canadian or British? Or would it be alright if I was one of those "American" blacks, or "american" latinos? But if I happen to be an immigrant, from Africa, from South America, from Asia living in America does that negate the value of my "other" culture? Should I prehaps re-identify myself?

Or what about if I am a second generation immigrant? Should my cultural ties to my family no longer hold water because I happen to live in another country?

Or perhaps I should change my prrofile picture so I can show you if I am or am not a part of a visible "other" and then maybe my culture could "fly" with you?

I'm sorry I offended you, mama, but I think you're reading a whole lot into my post that wasn't actually there.

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by matthia 

I have to say that this comment REALLY bothers me. This is completely irregardless of the original topic of this thread but is it because Mothering is an American publication that you also assume that I define my identity as "American" or Canadian or British? Or would it be alright if I was one of those "American" blacks, or "american" latinos? But if I happen to be an immigrant, from Africa, from South America, from Asia living in America does that negate the value of my "other" culture? Should I prehaps re-identify myself?

Or what about if I am a second generation immigrant? Should my cultural ties to my family no longer hold water because I happen to live in another country?

Or perhaps I should change my prrofile picture so I can show you if I am or am not a part of a visible "other" and then maybe my culture could "fly" with you?

And this comment really bothers me, b/c it assumes that we are racist if we disagree.  There are many things that our culture does not tolerate, that other cultures do, and when people come to this country, there are things that need to be gotten used to.  Sexism is one, my mother works at a public library in an immigrant community.  The culture of that community shifts when the immigration patterns shift, and there was a period of time when most of the immigrants were Somali, and the men would.not.listen.to.a.word.she.said.Period.Ever.At.All.  Well, when they did things against the rules whats she supposed to do?  Let them?  Call a man over to deal with them?  Let them be sexist and bring their culture over here and make her authority not count when directed towards them?  No.  They had to learn that here women are respected and listened to.  That meant she called the police alot to deal with it, b/c they WOULD listen to the police - and then she usually had no further problems with that individual. 

FGM is OK in other cultures - should those cultures be able to bring that to our country too just b/c they are of a different culture?

What about "honor killings"?  Are those OK just b/c they are from another culture?  No, they aren't.

It's not inherently racist to think that what is OK in other cultures is not OK in ours.

ETA - Just like when I visit another culture I do my best to be respectful of it, there are certain aspects of the US culture that people need to be respectful of when in the US.

[Ldavis24]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Some things, like food and exercise, are good to borrow and experience.  I would be SERIOUSLY uncomfortable if I traveled to a foreign country, and while staying in someones one room house was exposed to people having sex.  That would SERIOUSLY bother me, and I probably wouldn't leave with very good feelings about that culture.

There is also a huge difference between not going along with the cultural expectation that babies CIO or become independent on day one, and having sex right next to them.  Really, thats not OK in my book.  And at what age is it not OK?  When they start to have memories?  When they no longer sleep through it?

I mean, I'm all for parents getting their needs met - sex is an important part of a healthy relationship I believe - I just don't believe it should include the kiddos.  Now, baby in a pack n play, on the other side of the room, dead asleep - maybe.  Why?  Because even if they woke up, they probably wouldn't see anything (unless they can pull to stand, then they would be too old - but an infant who isn't capable of moving around on their own yet maybe, IF I could get into the mood).

And, there are many things about our culture that I don't accept (circ for example), but that doesn't mean that I have to accept everything that another culture does. 

Ok I see this is where the disagreement for me personally is. I don't see it as involving the kiddos in any way to have sex in the same room as a sleeping baby/toddler. It sounds perverted when you say it like that frankly.

I'm not saying accept everything from another culture either. I am saying that you shouldn't blow something off because another culture finds it normal. Honestly if I was visiting a one room house and the owners of that house were having sex while everyone was sleeping and I was awake, I would be trying really really hard not to laugh out loud because I don't see sex in general as something to be hidden (please don't think this means I think people should be having sex in the street) or super secretive. We are all sexual beings from the day we are born. I am reminded of what movie, Dances with Wolves maybe where they are in a communal teepee and a couple is DTD and someone wakes up and just rolls back over like "whatever they aren't bothering anyone or including them"...Ok maybe not the same thing but I think it is as big a deal as you make out of it.

I would also be way more mortified by my teenage kid walking in on me and DH DTD than my baby waking up while I was having sex and seeing mommy and daddy on top of each other. 

[Sfcmama]

Originally Posted by matthia 

I have to say that this comment REALLY bothers me. This is completely irregardless of the original topic of this thread but is it because Mothering is an American publication that you also assume that I define my identity as "American" or Canadian or British? Or would it be alright if I was one of those "American" blacks, or "american" latinos? But if I happen to be an immigrant, from Africa, from South America, from Asia living in America does that negate the value of my "other" culture? Should I prehaps re-identify myself?

Or what about if I am a second generation immigrant? Should my cultural ties to my family no longer hold water because I happen to live in another country?

Or perhaps I should change my prrofile picture so I can show you if I am or am not a part of a visible "other" and then maybe my culture could "fly" with you?

Wow - I don't know you but I love you!

I'm starting to realize that many times when I becomee uncomfortable with an MDC discussion its because it takes on the tone of dominant white, middle class US/Canadian America. What if I don't have the money or cultural expectations to have a space to make more children that is separate from my child's sleeping space?! Can there be room for that to be different and not sickening? Sorry to pull thread further off topic but a lot of cultural assumptions have been made.

[Ldavis24]

wish I was as eloquent as this when I try to make my points.

Originally Posted by Sfcmama 

Originally Posted by matthia 

I have to say that this comment REALLY bothers me. This is completely irregardless of the original topic of this thread but is it because Mothering is an American publication that you also assume that I define my identity as "American" or Canadian or British? Or would it be alright if I was one of those "American" blacks, or "american" latinos? But if I happen to be an immigrant, from Africa, from South America, from Asia living in America does that negate the value of my "other" culture? Should I prehaps re-identify myself?

Or what about if I am a second generation immigrant? Should my cultural ties to my family no longer hold water because I happen to live in another country?

Or perhaps I should change my prrofile picture so I can show you if I am or am not a part of a visible "other" and then maybe my culture could "fly" with you?

Wow - I don't know you but I love you!

I'm starting to realize that many times when I becomee uncomfortable with an MDC discussion its because it takes on the tone of dominant white, middle class US/Canadian America. What if I don't have the money or cultural expectations to have a space to make more children that is separate from my child's sleeping space?! Can there be room for that to be different and not sickening? Sorry to pull thread further off topic but a lot of cultural assumptions have been made.

[Pirogi]

I guess I don't really see how any cultural expectations have anything to do with it (other than to be aware of possible CPS involvement of course).  I certainly don't embrace much of mainstream western culture in how I live or raise my child.  For me, I would have to look at it this way:  is it morally or ethically wrong for the parents of a child to have sex while they are in the room or nearby?  If so, why?  Is it the threat of hearing something (I heard my parents quietly having sex from the opposite end of the house for years ... should they have abstained until I was out of their home?)?  Is it the idea that the children are somehow part of the sexual activity?  I can assure you that in our home that is not the case.  Is it that the child may wake up and see something?  We are careful not to "look" like anything is out of the ordinary just in case our DD were to ever wake ... we use side-lying most often, and there is really nothing to see or hear.  I really am open to hearing WHY others think it is wrong, and I may change my opinion.

Of course, I fully believe that there will come an age when DD will be too old to be in the same room.  Right now, she has no idea what sex is or what it would mean for her parents to be intimate.  She just doesn't get it.  

I appreciate everyone's honesty, and I hope others are able to keep their judgments at bay.  It really is unnecessary.  We are all different, and there is a different dynamic to every household.

[matthia]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

And this comment really bothers me, b/c it assumes that we are racist if we disagree.  There are many things that our culture does not tolerate, that other cultures do, and when people come to this country, there are things that need to be gotten used to.  Sexism is one, my mother works at a public library in an immigrant community.  The culture of that community shifts when the immigration patterns shift, and there was a period of time when most of the immigrants were Somali, and the men would.not.listen.to.a.word.she.said.Period.Ever.At.All.  Well, when they did things against the rules whats she supposed to do?  Let them?  Call a man over to deal with them?  Let them be sexist and bring their culture over here and make her authority not count when directed towards them?  No.  They had to learn that here women are respected and listened to.  That meant she called the police alot to deal with it, b/c they WOULD listen to the police - and then she usually had no further problems with that individual. 

FGM is OK in other cultures - should those cultures be able to bring that to our country too just b/c they are of a different culture?

What about "honor killings"?  Are those OK just b/c they are from another culture?  No, they aren't.

It's not inherently racist to think that what is OK in other cultures is not OK in ours.

ETA - Just like when I visit another culture I do my best to be respectful of it, there are certain aspects of the US culture that people need to be respectful of when in the US.

Perhaps my response was too...reactive. I have dealt with situations where being "other" made me out right WRONG. It is something that gets my hackles up and I, obviosuly, react strongly.

I think what I have a hard time with is WHERE the lines of this arguement lie. And I don't think that is easy to pinpoint for anyone. FOR MY PERSONAL OPINION equating FGM (which is inflicting serious personal harm on another human being) with having sex in the same room as a sleeping infant is crossing a line when discussing what is acceptable in one culture as opposed to another.

I guess I should have spent more time considering my post before simply posting it. However, If I am Japanese and slept in the same room with my parents until I was a pre-teen and now sleep with my child because I feel that is right, from an emotional and cultural standpoint, and am trying to discover the practicalities of that choice, it is hard to hear that my culture is wrong, simply because of where I choose to live. and that people I know and love are wrong.

I do think that culture matters and identifying your culture with your place of residence isn't as simple as that. I am sure that American's living in Korea don't suddenly stop celebrating their American culture because they live somewhere else.

It was absolutely the intention of starting this thread to get a broader perspective from many different people and many different backgrounds. It wasn't my intention to start debating whose culture is more or less vaild because of this difference in perspective. I, obviously, failed to maintain my own intended impartiality.

I would like to suggest that if anyone needs to get another word in on why having sex in a room with an infant is a CULTURAL matter, they can pm if they need to or perhaps start another thread. Otherwise I would like to suggest that we re-direct the thread back to it's intended start point. I absolutely think the opinions of everybody are important in this discussion, but I would rather leave out the "baggage" if we can. And I do include myself in this.

 If not, perhaps one of the mods can just close the thread.

[treeoflife3]

Re: My original comment that started this

My concern isn't the child in the same room.  Although that icks me out personally so I won't do it, that seems to be a more personal decision based on multiple factors.  My issue is the baby IN the bed with the parents having sex.  What I said is true.. if you are having sex with a baby in bed with you, no you can't tell anyone.  You would be very hard pressed to prove the baby was only there  because that is where the baby sleeps.  Most people are going to jump to some awful conclusions and want to know why you couldn't put baby in a crib/bassinet/pnp/swing/etc or have sex on the floor/couch/shower/etc.  Having sex with a baby in bed with you, regardless of their being a newborn or 5, is going to raise some pretty heavy questions if anyone finds out, at least in America/Canada which is the area I'm in.

The onus would be on you to prove that the baby was only there because that is the only place they have to sleep and you couldn't dtd elsewhere and I can't imagine most people would believe anyone saying that.  People have gotten in trouble just for having bathtub pictures of toddlers in the past, and that isn't even sex.  Many people will hear 'sex with a baby' not 'sex near where the baby is sleeping' if you say you have sex while the baby is in the same bed.

[matthia]

FWIW, havig our baby on the crib mattress next to our bed didn't work AT ALL. We never even bothered trying to DTD but it was the worse night's sleep we've ever had, including his newborn period. He's definitely back in our bed. As for sex, I don't know, I guess we're still figuring that out.

@Ldavis24:  no, I don't imagine I would ever really discuss this with anyone IRL I wasn't cklose to, and then I know it wouldn't be an issue.... I tend to be a tad wary of even bringing up cosleeping sometimes. always being on the defensive can be so tiring.

[Ldavis24]

Ok back to original topic. That was me just commenting about the idea of someone freaking out if you mentioned that you DTD while LO was sleeping in the bed. I totally agree people would freak out. I think maybe some people just wouldn't want to move their kid or DTD on the floor instead of the bed, to the bolded part, playing devil's advocate. Why should someone have to move their already sleeping LO off the (king size) bed in order to DTD on the bed? Thats all I'm saying or curious to hear responses about. Some people think it is really messed up, others not so much. I lean to the not caring so much because we PERSONALLY have a crib sidecarred to the bed and when DD was very small and sleeping in the side carred crib, yes DH and I DTD a couple of times on the actual bed while she slept in the crib portion. Would I do it now that she is older, no but I am not going to knock a couple who is still comfortable with it. I don't find it perverted or disturbing at all. It isn't like the kid is involved in any way at all. 

Now if my dog is on the bed while I am DTD with DH, I have a serious problem with that but only because my dog has a charming habit of trying to lick feet when we are DTDQuote:

Originally Posted by treeoflife3 

Re: My original comment that started this

My concern isn't the child in the same room.  Although that icks me out personally so I won't do it, that seems to be a more personal decision based on multiple factors.  My issue is the baby IN the bed with the parents having sex.  What I said is true.. if you are having sex with a baby in bed with you, no you can't tell anyone.  You would be very hard pressed to prove the baby was only there  because that is where the baby sleeps.  Most people are going to jump to some awful conclusions and want to know why you couldn't put baby in a crib/bassinet/pnp/swing/etc or have sex on the floor/couch/shower/etc.  Having sex with a baby in bed with you, regardless of their being a newborn or 5, is going to raise some pretty heavy questions if anyone finds out, at least in America/Canada which is the area I'm in.

The onus would be on you to prove that the baby was only there because that is the only place they have to sleep and you couldn't dtd elsewhere and I can't imagine most people would believe anyone saying that.  People have gotten in trouble just for having bathtub pictures of toddlers in the past, and that isn't even sex.  Many people will hear 'sex with a baby' not 'sex near where the baby is sleeping' if you say you have sex while the baby is in the same bed.

[sosurreal09]

I know my 3 y/o nephew shared a room with his dad and step mom. He was in his own bed on the other side of the room.

So he was at his moms one night and she shut off the light to put him to bed and he started moaning and she said "Why are you doing that?" He said "That's what Daddy does when the lights go out."

I personally feel weird about it.

[Adaline'sMama]

There seems to be a lot of talk amongst the mamas who dont think people should be DTD in the same room or bed with their kiddos about culture or what is okay in "our" culture. What about people who live in one room apartments, rvs, tents, school busses, yurts, basements at their parents house, ect.? There are lots and lots of "American" families that live that kind of lifestyle. SO, they should never have sex in their own space? If you live in an RV you should only have sex when you go out into the woods and find a hidden place? If you live in a one room apartment you have to let your child go and stay with someone else for a few hours just so you can DTD in your own space? Jeeze, in my circle of friends sex is something that is not to be hidden away and treated like its dirty.

As for the PP who said they would be so so offended if they went to another country and were exposed to people having sex:

Have you ever been to the park in San Fransisco?

Have you ever lived in a communal house?

Have you ever lived in a dorm room?

There are tons and tons of places right here in this country where people are exposed to sex all.the.time. Ill bet just in my youth Ive seen at least 5 couples having sex (and not because I was there to watch). For some people, its really not that abnormal to go on a camping trip and realize that people are doing it in the tent you are sharing.

Honestly, Id be a lot more worried about my kid watching a tv commercial that implies all the bad things about sex than I would about them waking up and seeing me on top of their father.

[Ldavis24]

Ok off topic a little bit but I remember a music festival I was at a few years ago where there was a lovely young couple completely buck naked DTD under a tree with literally thousands of people milling around them...It was hilarious.

My point, I too don't understand why people are petrified of the idea of their kid hearing them have sex or accidently seeing it or whatever. Like I said before we are all sexual beings from day 1. There is nothing shameful about it, it doesn't need to be something whispered about and spoken about in hushed tones as if you did something wrong. I'll also say again I would be far far more displeased if I had a teen (which I will eventually) who walked in on DH and I DTD...

[oneearthmama]

We had this exact same problem and we also have a queen mattress and box spring on the floor. Our solution has been to side car his crib turned into a toddler bed. At first he noticed the change so we put an egg crate on top of his crib mattress to make it more comfortable like ours. He has no problem sleeping in the side car bed and if he wakes up in the night and wants to snuggle he can crawl right on over! Good luck with the sex life! I, too, was and still am a new mama with an active libido! :)

[treeoflife3]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24 

Ok back to original topic. That was me just commenting about the idea of someone freaking out if you mentioned that you DTD while LO was sleeping in the bed. I totally agree people would freak out. I think maybe some people just wouldn't want to move their kid or DTD on the floor instead of the bed, to the bolded part, playing devil's advocate. Why should someone have to move their already sleeping LO off the (king size) bed in order to DTD on the bed? Thats all I'm saying or curious to hear responses about. Some people think it is really messed up, others not so much. I lean to the not caring so much because we PERSONALLY have a crib sidecarred to the bed and when DD was very small and sleeping in the side carred crib, yes DH and I DTD a couple of times on the actual bed while she slept in the crib portion. Would I do it now that she is older, no but I am not going to knock a couple who is still comfortable with it. I don't find it perverted or disturbing at all. It isn't like the kid is involved in any way at all. 

Now if my dog is on the bed while I am DTD with DH, I have a serious problem with that but only because my dog has a charming habit of trying to lick feet when we are DTDQuote:

If you were reported for sex with a baby in bed with you, the question you'd be asked as an answer to the bolded is 'why, if you didn't want to move your baby off the bed, couldn't you move to the floor/couch/bathroom/wherever instead'

People are very sensitive to child abuse/sexual abuse.  Its one thing to have a sound asleep baby in the room but on a separate sleeping surface while you quietly have sex but people will find it a completely different thing to have sex with baby practically sharing the same pillow.  Whether or not the baby was involved with the sex or was sound asleep and had zero clue (and wasn't even old enough to understand were they wide awake anyway) people would struggle to believe you really were just having sex as if baby wasn't there even though baby was.

People struggle to understand co sleeping as it is.  I'm all for it personally but we all know how people sometimes have to hide that they co sleep at all because people think it is really dangerous or will screw a kid up by not being 'independent.'  Sex is always the first thing I ever see asked when co sleeping comes up.  Every single time.  and every single time the argument is 'you don't have to have sex in bed.'  People against co sleeping or not even so sure about it are going to assume co sleeping and sex are not mixed.  When they hear it has been by having sex with a baby next to the couple in bed, they are going to jump to conclusions... because people are very sensitive about child abuse/sexual abuse.

I'm sure the people in this thread who say they have or have had sex with their child in bed with them were doing so quietly so as not to wake baby because I'm going to assume anyone doing something wrong wouldn't say so so publicly however I am alternative enough to recognize that.  Most people are not going to be.  Ask on a more mainstream forum the same question of co sleeping and sex... in the same bed at the same time... and I can almost guarantee people will flip.  I personally can't blame them.. I don't see a single reason why I would ever need to have sex with my child able to roll right into me during.  People will want to know why baby couldn't be placed elsewhere when they went to sleep or why the parents couldn't have planned for sex at a better time or why the parents couldn't have had sex elsewhere.  People will assume that purposely not choosing another route is highly questionable because very few people don't have other options.  Even in the one room apartment I used to live in, I still had a separate bathroom... and had sex in it too.  That is how most people will think.

[Sfcmama]

Just curious... To the mamas who are grossed out by DTD with a young one in the room, did/do you feel the same way about having sex toward the end of your pregnancy? Just trying to understand where the line is from your perspective. What about orgasmic birth or nipple stimulation during labor? Perhaps for some, a young baby isn't yet a separate entity from the mama/couple during the fourth trimester (as in little difference between sex while 9 mo pregnant and sex with a sleeping 2 mo old in the room).