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post #81 of 129
I work with CPS (family therapist) in California, not for them and they are to consider if practices are of cultural norm for the family. For example, the Chinese medicine technique of cupping leave marks on a child (a big no no by general standards) but is completely within normal limits for the culture. HOWEVER, rules are enforced by imperfect people within the systems of power and oppression so personal values often prevent objective decisions from being made.

This is a large reason why I'm so triggered by this topic. It's really hard to see families judged so harshly by people of authority when they are just living within their economic means or cultural traditions or even just what is the best they can do. Arguments for removal are often made for "overcrowding" which is often just ridiculous when compared to the living conditions of other countries!

Back to the topic, I'm still wondering what the harm is of a very young child sleeping in the same room...?

Two cents from a social worker.
post #82 of 129

I see an assumption in this thread that sex either involves "sex noises" or "there is a specific effort to be quiet" for some people, "noisy" sex doesn't come naturally. Honestly dh and I are more likely to chit chat/crack jokes! Thats just our style ;) We don't moan or make any noises that we'd feel uncomfortable making in polite company! So a king size bed, baby on their side, parents on their side, being quiet to not wake the baby, in a dark room, possibly under covers, and ready to end (or pause, haha) the activity if the baby (or, *gasp* toddler) starts stirring? I don't see the big deal. I think I would draw an "age" line, however. Not a black and white age, but little ones will start fussing to nurse before they even realize they're awake, but preschoolers would be more inclined to open their eyes and look around quietly without making a sound. So I do think the "sleep style" of the child makes a difference. No way would I dtd in the same room as sleeping dd! She could wake up and see something she needn't see before we even realize she's awake. 

post #83 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by treeoflife3 View Post


I am under the impression that the majority of the people on MDC are American/Canadian or within a similar culture.  Yes, I'm sure there are people from all over the world but the majority of people on this website are going to be from a place where telling the wrong person they have sex with a baby in their bed could lead to government involvement and a hard time trying to explain why the baby was there.  I'm not going to speak to every single person instead of the general... that would be thoroughly too difficult.  My point still stands; if you have sex with a baby in your bed and you don't have the benefit of living in a place where that is the norm, then yes you should be very careful about who you share that information with.


 

I think its pretty presumptious for you to assume that, even though we live in the same country, we are of the same culture. I have considered myself part of a subculture since I was about 13 years old. The subculture Ive considered myself a part of has changed over the years, including and up to the subculture that something similar to  "natural living."

 

We can agree to disagree about the opinions about sex in the family bed, but I will not agree that we all live in the same culture just because we reside in the same country.  


 

post #84 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post




 

I think its pretty presumptious for you to assume that, even though we live in the same country, we are of the same culture. I have considered myself part of a subculture since I was about 13 years old. The subculture Ive considered myself a part of has changed over the years, including and up to the subculture that something similar to  "natural living."

 

We can agree to disagree about the opinions about sex in the family bed, but I will not agree that we all live in the same culture just because we reside in the same country.  


 


But, the poster you're quoting was talking about the culture from the perspective of potential government interference in people's lives. Being part of a subculture doesn't create a CPS free zone.

post #85 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

I for one am completely freaked out by orgasmic birth!



I had an orgasmic birth *and* I've had plenty of sex with a baby nursing at the same time. 

 

Sex is a normal part of life.  Anyone who finds certain, normal behaviors indecent shouldn't participate in those normal behaviors. 

 

OP, I hope you and your dh have figured out a way to enjoy sex with a child around.  I had 4 babies in 5 years, so my dh learned to take it where and when he could get it. LOL

post #86 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by princesstutu View Post





I had an orgasmic birth *and* I've had plenty of sex with a baby nursing at the same time. 

 

Sex is a normal part of life.  Anyone who finds certain, normal behaviors indecent shouldn't participate in those normal behaviors. 

 

OP, I hope you and your dh have figured out a way to enjoy sex with a child around.  I had 4 babies in 5 years, so my dh learned to take it where and when he could get it. LOL


Now THAT'S what I call multi-tasking! Lol.
My sense is that making love with baby near (cosleeping or not) is the global norm but a western taboo. Thanks for your honesty!
post #87 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by princesstutu View Post





I had an orgasmic birth *and* I've had plenty of sex with a baby nursing at the same time

 

Sex is a normal part of life.  Anyone who finds certain, normal behaviors indecent shouldn't participate in those normal behaviors. 

 

OP, I hope you and your dh have figured out a way to enjoy sex with a child around.  I had 4 babies in 5 years, so my dh learned to take it where and when he could get it. LOL



I've seen people say this in threads of this nature in the past and it kind of blows my mind how some mamas can fulfill two roles at the same time like that. I can fully appreciate the dual roles of my breasts to be both nuturing to my child and sexual to my husband, but I don't think I am capable of both happening at the same time. Personally, I automatically detach (literally and figuratively) from being a nursing mother to enjoy my breasts in a sexual way, and my breasts become completely nonsexual when I am feeding a baby. I just could not cross the two and it surprises me when I hear of women who can.

post #88 of 129

we use our spare guest room, which has a bed. Takes a bit more planning (as we have to heat the room :) But DH (and I too for that matter) are uncomfortable with sex in the family bed.

post #89 of 129


More power to you mama!

 

 my breasts/nipples have become so desensitized due to DD nursing and pulling on them that I can literally twist my nipple around 3 or 4 times without feeling a thing, sorry TMI....DH is sad that they aren't really sensitive to anything anymore, maybe when I am done nursing DD they will regain some of their former sensitivity.

 

:DH and I have tried the fooling around thing while DD was nursing but it always startled me if she would open her eyes and suddenly be staring at us. Poor DH was thoroughly freaked out the couple of times that happened so now we generally stick to her being asleep to enjoy each other.

 

I have to wonder how much people's personal religion plays into their discomfort with even DTD in the same room as their LO. If your religion is generally teaching you that sex is not such a great thing (I'm thinking of my Catholic upbringing here, just my own personal experience) then how could one possibly be comfortable with any sexual expression in front of their LO even if the LO is sleeping? We are all Atheists in this household so it doesn't factor in but I imagine it must for a lot of people here on MDC.

Originally Posted by princesstutu View Post





I had an orgasmic birth *and* I've had plenty of sex with a baby nursing at the same time. 

 

Sex is a normal part of life.  Anyone who finds certain, normal behaviors indecent shouldn't participate in those normal behaviors. 

 

OP, I hope you and your dh have figured out a way to enjoy sex with a child around.  I had 4 babies in 5 years, so my dh learned to take it where and when he could get it. LOL

post #90 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by princesstutu View Post





I had an orgasmic birth *and* I've had plenty of sex with a baby nursing at the same time. 

 

Sex is a normal part of life.  Anyone who finds certain, normal behaviors indecent shouldn't participate in those normal behaviors. 

 

OP, I hope you and your dh have figured out a way to enjoy sex with a child around.  I had 4 babies in 5 years, so my dh learned to take it where and when he could get it. LOL



Trying to picture the logistics of this. nak

post #91 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post


More power to you mama!

 

 my breasts/nipples have become so desensitized due to DD nursing and pulling on them that I can literally twist my nipple around 3 or 4 times without feeling a thing, sorry TMI....DH is sad that they aren't really sensitive to anything anymore, maybe when I am done nursing DD they will regain some of their former sensitivity.

 

:DH and I have tried the fooling around thing while DD was nursing but it always startled me if she would open her eyes and suddenly be staring at us. Poor DH was thoroughly freaked out the couple of times that happened so now we generally stick to her being asleep to enjoy each other.

 

I have to wonder how much people's personal religion plays into their discomfort with even DTD in the same room as their LO. If your religion is generally teaching you that sex is not such a great thing (I'm thinking of my Catholic upbringing here, just my own personal experience) then how could one possibly be comfortable with any sexual expression in front of their LO even if the LO is sleeping? We are all Atheists in this household so it doesn't factor in but I imagine it must for a lot of people here on MDC.


I wonder if the term "doing the deed" has something to do with that - like it's some sort of unenjoyable chore. Lordess knows I'd rather make love with dh than wash the dishes most any day!
post #92 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by princesstutu View Post





I had an orgasmic birth *and* I've had plenty of sex with a baby nursing at the same time. 

 

Sex is a normal part of life.  Anyone who finds certain, normal behaviors indecent shouldn't participate in those normal behaviors. 

 

OP, I hope you and your dh have figured out a way to enjoy sex with a child around.  I had 4 babies in 5 years, so my dh learned to take it where and when he could get it. LOL

 

Orgasmic birth is fine, but I happen to think that having sex while nursing is highly inappropriate, and would be IMPOSSIBLE to explain to CPS.

 

Yes, sex is a normal part of life.  It's also a very intimate part of life that does not need to be public, or involve our children.  And yes, I do believe that having sex while nursing (with a baby literally attached to your boob) is involving an infant in your sex life in an inappropriate way.  I find it very disturbing that people actually DO this, and then admit to it.
 

post #93 of 129

Yeah.. I definitely draw the line at nursing. If we're interrupted by a baby, and said baby needs to be nursed back to sleep, dh is more than welcome to give me a back/foot rub  if he can't keep his hands to himself, but nothing more sexual than that is allowed until baby is done, asleep, and I've managed to put some distance between us!

post #94 of 129

Never mind.

post #95 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sfcmama View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post


More power to you mama!

 

 my breasts/nipples have become so desensitized due to DD nursing and pulling on them that I can literally twist my nipple around 3 or 4 times without feeling a thing, sorry TMI....DH is sad that they aren't really sensitive to anything anymore, maybe when I am done nursing DD they will regain some of their former sensitivity.

 

:DH and I have tried the fooling around thing while DD was nursing but it always startled me if she would open her eyes and suddenly be staring at us. Poor DH was thoroughly freaked out the couple of times that happened so now we generally stick to her being asleep to enjoy each other.

 

I have to wonder how much people's personal religion plays into their discomfort with even DTD in the same room as their LO. If your religion is generally teaching you that sex is not such a great thing (I'm thinking of my Catholic upbringing here, just my own personal experience) then how could one possibly be comfortable with any sexual expression in front of their LO even if the LO is sleeping? We are all Atheists in this household so it doesn't factor in but I imagine it must for a lot of people here on MDC.




I wonder if the term "doing the deed" has something to do with that - like it's some sort of unenjoyable chore. Lordess knows I'd rather make love with dh than wash the dishes most any day!


hmm never thought about it actually. I just always type it myself as I find it is short and easy and everyone knows what it means.

At this point I just don't want to judge anyone for what they do or don't do. I seriously doubt if a mama is willing to say what she and her DH are comfortable with in regard to this whole topic do any of you really think someone is doing something wrong to their baby? I seriously doubt it. I find that if anything the mamas on here are generally far more concerned with trying to be the best parent they can be than just your average joe on the street. In fact I'd say we all tend to get a bit obsessive about trying to parent as best as we possibly can! I feel like it is something most mamas have in common here and within this particular thread I just know that we all have our kids best interests at heart...Hmm this isn't as clear as I want it to be but maybe someone gets my point.

 

edited to add that I will admit to sleeping naked as well. Although DH doesn't and DD almost always sleeps in between us so the chances of nighttime canoodling of any kind are zero. I also don't like to be coddled in my sleep, an issue that stems from childhood and DH knows this so the only one who gets cuddles is DD!

post #96 of 129

I tend to agree with this.  I have a very positive, earth-based spirituality where sex is called The Gift of Pleasure and is considered one of the most sacred acts, one of the most important gifts from the Divine, and very life-affirming.

 

I used to be a smoker back in college and after the kids were born there were a couple of weeks when I was really stressed and reverted back to smoking a couple of cigarettes.  (Didn't last long!)  Anyway, even though the kids were really too young to "get it" I felt SO guilty doing it in front of them, totally ashamed and dirty!  I guess if I had any guilty hangups about sexual expression perhaps that would factor into not wanting to do it around a baby, sleeping or not.  But marital affection does not strike me as something to have to hide from kids.  I'm not saying to just put it all out there and break it out on the living room couch after dessert - privacy is still important and I wouldn't want to expose them to anything that made them uncomfortable - but I don't think it's anything that should be, I dunno.  Segregated to the bathroom floor just because an infant might be exposed to it while he is sleeping.  That's bizarre to me.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post

I have to wonder how much people's personal religion plays into their discomfort with even DTD in the same room as their LO. If your religion is generally teaching you that sex is not such a great thing (I'm thinking of my Catholic upbringing here, just my own personal experience) then how could one possibly be comfortable with any sexual expression in front of their LO even if the LO is sleeping? We are all Atheists in this household so it doesn't factor in but I imagine it must for a lot of people here on MDC.

post #97 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnoliaDragon View Post


FWIW not everyone's love making involves boobs.  I for one have VERY sensitive breasts and esp. nipples, much to DH's dismay.  The poor man is never allowed to touch or play with them - it hurts.  Nursing babies are fine, and (TMI) even DH's mouth is alright, but hands, no.  (Kids have the same rule, they can't twiddle, etc.)  So for ME personally breasts aren't sexual.  There's never a moment of "oh gosh I have to shut down my mommy mode to become wife mode" or vice versa.  Granted if I hear a kiddo fussing in another room I get turned off in a second until I make sure everything is OK with them - it's not like I'm this sex crazed lady who would rather have sex than be mommy.  But if the baby or child's needs are being met, whether they're two feet or two rooms away, it's all the same to me.  (Obviously this only goes if they're asleep - there's no way I could have sex with a wakeful baby nearby.  I can barely even have a quickie if there's awake kids happily occuppied elsewhere in the house.)


I didn't mean to imply that breasts are always sexual.  I was saying that when a child is physically attached to a person, after being born, sex should wait until the child is no longer physically attached.  When a child is nursing, they are physically attached to the womans boob, and I don't think its in the least bit appropriate for a couple to have sex while a child is nursing.  Just like a woman who was bottle feeding her baby wouldn't be feeding her kid while having sex, a nursing mother shouldn't be multi-tasking to that degree either.  I find it pretty disturbing that people are actually OK with that.

post #98 of 129

I think this is a very interesting post that raises questions both practical and philosophical. I already addressed the practical aspects, but now (and forgive me that this is a bit tangential to the discussion at hand!) I'd like to talk a bit about one of the philosophical aspects.

 

Which is, I wanted to say that one thing that irks me is what I feel is an over-reliance on the whole West/non-West argument. That is, when people (especially within the natural family community because we tend to be especially defensive of our at-times unconventional choices) say something along the lines of, "Oh, that's just how we do it in the WEST (or the U.S., as is sometimes similarly invoked), but no one else is the world does that!"

 

The problem I have with this argument is that:

 

a) I think it's a bit offensive because it implies that a basic short-sightenedness on the part of the person who follows whatever "Western" or "American" norm is under question, and ignores the possibility that they are making a decision every bit as conscientious as the person who is doing it the "non-Western" way. (ie, just because I don't feel comfortable making love whilst nursing doesn't necessarily mean that I'm close-minded or bound up in my own repressive cultural norms)

 

b) It is really reductive because there is SOMETIMES (not in all the cases that this argument is invoked!) the patronizing (even racist) implication that "non-Western" people somehow have a better grasp of what it is to live a close to our human instincts as possible--this is offensive because it either implies that certain people ("Westerners") don't have access to that kind of intuition naturally OR (worse) is embedded with a sort of camouflaged racism not even perceived by the person repeating this trope--because what is the implication? That non-Westerners are somehow closer to their animal instincts because they aren't saddled with all of the knowledge and science and modernity that "Westerners" are?

 

and finally:

 

c) it depends on binaries that are in themselves problematic and in many of the cases that they are raised, not very well understood. That is, what do we mean when we say, "Well, that's just how we do it in THE WEST. No one does it like that outside of the west." Because I must ask in all earnestness, What are we referring to, exactly, when we say The West? Are we referring to specific instances of cultural differences that we understand well (in Russia they do this, in Azerbaijan they do that, and I know that because of X), or are we simply invoking a vague notion of cultural differences that we think must exist and which serve our argument?

 

To the last point I will say that I have traveled a lot throughout Europe and Asia (and the US and Canada!) and I have been fascinated by cultural practices different from my own. But I have also been surprised at some of the similarities. I spent a lot of time in Europe, I lived for several years in Asia and traveled extensively throughout SE Asia and I have been married to men of two different European countries. I also study languages and culture full-time (Spanish and Chinese). And I am naturally skeptical when people sort of casually toss off this whole "West," "non-West" argument. I believe that a point can be made without relying on this argument--and oftentimes a point that is more elegant and carefully considered.
 

I guess, ultimately, my point is that I would love to see us in this community continue to probe these kinds of questions, but perhaps being more thoughtful and careful in some of our responses!

post #99 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sfcmama View Post

I work with CPS (family therapist) in California, not for them and they are to consider if practices are of cultural norm for the family. For example, the Chinese medicine technique of cupping leave marks on a child (a big no no by general standards) but is completely within normal limits for the culture. HOWEVER, rules are enforced by imperfect people within the systems of power and oppression so personal values often prevent objective decisions from being made.

This is a large reason why I'm so triggered by this topic. It's really hard to see families judged so harshly by people of authority when they are just living within their economic means or cultural traditions or even just what is the best they can do. Arguments for removal are often made for "overcrowding" which is often just ridiculous when compared to the living conditions of other countries!

Back to the topic, I'm still wondering what the harm is of a very young child sleeping in the same room...?

Two cents from a social worker.

I just wanted to say, in light of my comment above, that I find your post very thoughtful and specific and you address cultural differences in a way that opens up the discussion and introduces nuances for us to think about!

 

Having said that, do you think that the debate *here* about feeling comfortable dtd with babies/toddlers in the room (or indeed whilst nursing them) or not is divided along cultural lines? I haven't so far gotten that impression myself...
 

post #100 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ldavis24 View Post


I have to wonder how much people's personal religion plays into their discomfort with even DTD in the same room as their LO. If your religion is generally teaching you that sex is not such a great thing (I'm thinking of my Catholic upbringing here, just my own personal experience) then how could one possibly be comfortable with any sexual expression in front of their LO even if the LO is sleeping? We are all Atheists in this household so it doesn't factor in but I imagine it must for a lot of people here on MDC.



I'm not religious.  And my parents were affectionate towards each other around me and my brothers growing up - I don't think all marital affection should be hidden.  I do think though, that sex is an intimate act between 2 consenting adults, with a reasonable amount of privacy.  If baby is in a crib on the other side of the room, fine.  Baby being in bed (or attached to mama nursing) thats not OK with me.

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