Oh snap, dh is talking abt school next year!

[craft_media_hero]

My hub is disillusioned with homeschooling, primarily because we are in a major slump, dd never "does" any "school" (though she is on grade level), she really does not have frequent socialization with kids her age, her behavior has been shall we say challenging (which is pretty regular here), and we're really not getting out for much physical activity. All valid points, yes, many of which would be solved by a second vehicle.

He thinks that since she is back on track academically that it would be a good idea to start warming her up to the idea of going to public school next year . . . I disagree!

I have philosophical reasons for homeschooling that have nothing to do with education---I think that families should be together and that the institution of school is really divisive to families. I also don't want her learning negative social skills that I believe she will inevitably pick up. I believe our current institution of school creates a society that is non-inclusive of children (like it creeps me out that the children are just absent from our world for the bulk of the week). I have been leaning toward unschooling--it's true that we're in hs turmoil of how to proceed at this point, and I'm really torn; that's beside the point, though. Plus, she doesn't want to go to school! And I really want to proceed in a way that respects what she wants for herself; she really is a special kid, and I want her to have the room she needs to really be herself and come to fruition. <<I'm not saying any of this to incite a debate, PLEASE, I just am giving background so readers understand where my and dh's difference of opinions come from>>

I am hurt because I feel like dh wants the "free daycare" option, and I just disagree with that on principle. Right now, we're both home during the day, yay!! But he and dd really clash, and I guess it makes me sad 'coz it seems like he just kinda wants to dump her on the school "to free up more time for us" (his words). He says that she doesn't do anything all day (true that she has been doing zero schoolwork) but lay around and gripe at us and be uncooperative--okay, she is uncooperative, but that's still going to be there, it will just be invisible to us because we won't be the ones dealing with it for the bulk of the day. I feel like he wants to send her to school so that he doesn't want to deal with her :(

How do I talk to him about this? How do I help him "get" the "Hold on to Your Kids" idea? How can we fix the underlying issues so that we are all happy at home together?

FWIW, our current academic slump and them clashing so much didn't really start until he had the work schedule change so that he is home during the day. I find it nearly impossible for us to get into a good routine with him here during the days, eek! As far as her not doing as much academics, I think that if he sees that as an issue, then he should step up and do some of the guidance; not me as I feel fine with where she's at.

Ugh, please talk to me about this. I need to think this out with some mommas. Part of me does question as to whether some parts of school could be good for her, but my heart just pushes against it!

[AAK]

Wow!  This might be challenging.  But, if it were me, I would stive to find a middle ground.  

Unschooling wouldn't work for my dh either, but he doesn't mind if some schooling is unschooling.  For us, that is science and social studies.  However, (and maybe I am wrong) but to me, unschooling doesn't mean "abandon all teaching".  The best "unschooling" families that I know have wonderfully organized parents who help find the opportunities, make the opportunities, and encourage the children to take advantage of the opportunities to learn.  The mom might pick up on her child's interest in dinosaurs.  She will make sure books/videos/etc about dinosaurs are easily accessible.  She will learn about them herself so that she can have intelligent conversations about them.  She will notice that a local museum is having an exhibit on dinosaurs and make sure that they go to it, she might suggest an "excavation" in the backyard for a fun way to learn about how people really find the remains, etc.  I think "unschooling" is a lot of work!  It really is fun though.  

Perhaps, you and your dh could write down separately "what homeschooling means to you" and "what are the educational goals" you have for your dd.  It might also help to have a planning session on Sundays.  This would include both of you.  You might say, this week I hope to encourage learning by x, y, z.  If you work as a team, you can probably address his real concerns (not just "daycare"),  and still keep your dd at home.  

But, I must ask, what IS your dd doing all day?  Is she engaged in imaginative play or something else.  You mention that she isn't doing schoolwork, doesn't have a ton of social opportunities, and isn't incredibly active.  If she is simply laying around and pestering you two, change would probably be beneficial.  I would also let your dd in on the planning.  It may be that she gets excited about having a say, and you can go crazy having fun.  I would also let her know that her attitude needs to meet expectations if she wants to have the privilege of staying at home.  I agree with you that being at home is generally great for the family--but not if it is creating a rift between you and your spouse.  

Compromise seems inevitable.  The current situation isn't working for your dh and public school won't work for you.  If you plan out the week together, maybe he can "teach" on Tues/Thurs and you get Mon/Wed.  Friday can be a family fun day.  Your school days can end by noon.  I would have options for her afternoons as well.  Find a homeschool group or a class.  At our YMCA, there is a homeschool PE class that is lots of fun.  It is held in the afternoons 2x/week.  I wouldn't plan all her afternoons.  I would tell her that in the afternoon you expect her to do something productive.  She can do chores, puzzles, play by herself, paint, etc.  But, whining and pestering aren't allowed.  Plan out one afternoon for "couple time".  Find a homeschooler to swap childcare with.  You take hers for one afternoon and she takes yours for one afternoon.

Tell dd what the expectations will be.  If you decide that she needs to "do" math, let her know that she will have 1 page of math each day.  If she gets done in 10 minutes, great.  I would also let her know that public school would mean 6 hours at a desk and that you and dh are working as a team to educate her at home, but that if she doesn't cooperate that the possiblity of public school will be revisited.  

I am sorry this is so long winded.  I get where you are coming from (really, I do).  But, your dh probably feels that he has valid points too.  If you manage to work this out, that will be an awesome lesson for your dd.  She will see her parents compromise and work as a team to make a solution work that truly will be best for the family.  

Good luck to you!

Amy

[seashells]

You've said you need a vehicle, so you need a vehicle.

If you put DD on a bus every day, you still need a vehicle. Because otherwise you're just staying at home and waiting. Right?

(I don't think everyone needs a vehicle... just clarifying... but I think this mama can legitimately need one)

I'd be tempted to talk vehicle every time he talked school. "She should go to school so she has friends." "Oh, a vehicle would solve that." "She isn't doing any work." "If we had a vehicle, I could take her to a lot of places, get learning materials, go to the library, etc." "She's lazing around and not being productive." "Oh, yes, a vehicle would get us active and involved and out of the house!" "She needs to go to PE." "They have a program down at the YMCA but we need a vehicle for that."

One thing to think about, though - WOULD a vehicle solve it all? I believe you if you say it would, but if it were me, I would hate to be in the position of having nagged for a car but not having changed anything for the better if I finally got one.

BTW I know a SAHM, and a homeschooler, married to a narcissist, whose husband didn't think she needed a car. She is not terribly assertive, but she made the car her hill to die on. Her husband said no to tons of things, but she made a huge stink about the car. She got a car :)

[craft_media_hero]

Originally Posted by AAK 

But, I must ask, what IS your dd doing all day?  Is she engaged in imaginative play or something else.  You mention that she isn't doing schoolwork, doesn't have a ton of social opportunities, and isn't incredibly active.  If she is simply laying around and pestering you two, change would probably be beneficial.  I would also let your dd in on the planning.  It may be that she gets excited about having a say, and you can go crazy having fun.  I would also let her know that her attitude needs to meet expectations if she wants to have the privilege of staying at home.  I agree with you that being at home is generally great for the family--but not if it is creating a rift between you and your spouse.  

.............

I am sorry this is so long winded.  I get where you are coming from (really, I do).  But, your dh probably feels that he has valid points too.  If you manage to work this out, that will be an awesome lesson for your dd.  She will see her parents compromise and work as a team to make a solution work that truly will be best for the family.  

Good luck to you!

Amy

Thank you for long-winded! I need that.

What she does all day---she mostly plays imaginatively building fantastic scenes with miniature furniture, colored gemstones and rocks, and little figures. She really can do that for hours and hours. She does do chores---she spent at least an hour or more picking up her room and giving the bathroom a deep clean. She likes to help cook and will help do dishes. She makes herself snacks; she plays outside climbing our trees and digging in the dirt or helping me get started on the garden (not enough outside time, but outside time nonetheless). She spends a lot of time playing with her baby brother--she likes carrying him around, pushing him in the stroller, and now that he likes food, she shares pretty much every snack with him. She watches movies, but lately my stance has been "no screens til zones (our chore areas) and school work is done" so she hasn't been watching movies 'coz of that. Now that she's an independent reader, she will spend about a half hr or more in bed at night reading to herself (Peter Pan!).

So she does do stuff other than lay around and gripe, but her attitude really has been pretty sour and uncooperative when it comes time to get out of the house--she doesn't want to be disturbed from whatever she's doing and gets cranky about leaving her rock play for instance.

I think that he will come around (I hope). He only has the pattern of thinking with which he was raised, and that's a lot . . . less progressive perspective on parenting than I have. We have till Fall, and I really hope that he sees the value of keeping dd home before then. Last night we had a really good discussion about parenting, and I think that with the right influences he could come around to a more consensual approach (right now he's kind of in the "obey" mindset). Any ideas how I can get any of the "unschooling" (for lack of a better word) or radical parenting values across to him? As that's a big part of why hs is important to me (just letting her develop into her own person and giving her as much freedom as is healthy and possible to do that).

We do need to sit down and have an expectations discussion with dd. I talked to her about it yesterday, and she says that she wants to be graded--is that a big mistake? Or would giving her an assignment sheet and marking "0" next to the ones she skips really help? I also want to get dh on board with being the other teacher, like a M/W and T/Th arrangement.

The car is a big deal. I am going to get a car. It's not that he won't "let" me have one, but we haven't had a budget for anything for the last couple years, and I've got by without a vehicle for a long time, even before he and I were together. Now that I'm making enough money to pay extra insurance, etc., I am getting my own car--I think that we will be buying it with our tax return, yes! I am not letting up until it's in our driveway.

Gosh, thanks so much for this forum and a place to discuss!

[Keeta]

Originally Posted by craft_media_hero 

Any ideas how I can get any of the "unschooling" (for lack of a better word) or radical parenting values across to him? As that's a big part of why hs is important to me (just letting her develop into her own person and giving her as much freedom as is healthy and possible to do that).

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Nak and typing on iPhone...

The video by Alfie Kohn of "unconditional parenting" might be an idea for your DH. I know a lot of mamas have a hard time getting their DH's to read parenting books, and Kohn is an engaging speaker. Our library has it - you should check to see if you can get it there.

[moominmamma]

I feel like I offer this up as a suggestion for every issue on this forum, but ... how about Family Meetings? 

Coming together as a threesome to discuss whatever worries, issues or concerns you all have would be a great way to collaboratively address things -- and doing so openly with your child involved really helps keep the emotions and judgements to a minimum. (For example I would think your hubby would be less likely to frame it as "freeing up time for us by putting her in school" if she's part of the discussion.) 

You'll all learn diplomacy, I would think. You might have to step in to reframe things: "It sounds to me like daddy is worried about your learning because it doesn't look at all like what he experienced in school. Can you think of any ideas that would help him with that worry?" Or "Hon, she probably didn't realize that's annoying to you. Maybe she understands better now. Could you two come up with a signal or something to warn each other when your buttons are getting pushed?" Or "Some people would say that if we had more structure to our days, maybe a bit of a routine or a schedule, we would get along better. Do you guys think there's anything to that?"

And I think it would give you a chance to speak clearly and honestly to your dh and your dd about the things you value about homeschooling. Draw their attention to the stuff that's easy to miss because they're staring you in the face .... her closeness to her little brother, the fact that for better of worse there's no sweeping family relationship issues under the carpet -- they have to be addressed, the amazing creativity you see in her play, the opportunities she gets to follow things (like the garden and the growing and preparation of a meal) through many stages over the long term rather than needing everything to fit into classroom blocks, the learning through genuine conversation, and through involvement in the community. Sometimes we moms take these things for granted, assume they're self-evident. But I think some people (esp. dads) need to hear them explicitly articulated.

Family Meetings are best executed with warm drinks and yummy treats, warm hearts and open minds. Starting with the right emotional tone, rather than a laundry list of complaints, is crucial. You don't have to solve everything in one meeting. Often it's enough just to realize that you're all really on the same side, wanting productive lives and loving family relationships, and to hear each other out and understand each other's perspectives better. One or two adjustments collaboratively agreed to for a trial period, and a promise to re-assess in a week or two and consider other alternatives or further steps as warranted, are usually what we accomplish. And it's enough! Things get better!

Good luck!

Miranda

(who is off to take her own advice this week ... it's time for a Family Meeting chez moominfamiliy)

[AAK]

Originally Posted by craft_media_hero 
 Any ideas how I can get any of the "unschooling" (for lack of a better word) or radical parenting values across to him? As that's a big part of why hs is important to me (just letting her develop into her own person and giving her as much freedom as is healthy and possible to do that).

I didn't quote the part about "what she does all day"--but it sounds like she has a wonderful imagination!

As for the "unschooling" and radical values. . . with my dh, I refrained from that term.  With our "unschooly" subjects, I talk about learning science through life OR "sneaking" in some learning when we bake.  Sometimes the verbage has baggage; simply by changing terms you can go pretty far.  

Amy

[craft_media_hero]

Ah, you all are so eloquent and insightful. I hope that I can really internalize your advice and share it with dh naturally and positively ;) 

Today dd "did school"; she made herself a list of the goals that she wanted to accomplish today, and she accomplished them all with plenty of free play time. If she can keep that up, I think dh will feel better about her homeschooling.

I do feel bad for her, though, about not having a lot of friends her age. Today she said since we moved she doesn't have friends, and it's true! Our neighborhood seems pretty "closed"--there are even some hs-ers that live on the same street, and she does go ask if they can play, but the answer's always no :( I guess I need to accompany her and bring hot bread, lol, but she always wants to walk over when the baby is half-naked and nurse-y and I'm in sweats doing something cruddy, you know?

There is a homeschool art class and swim group during the day, and we have been attending swim, but last time dd said that the girls said she was "annoying" and a "meanie", and I was watching the whole time--she was just being friendly and kind of hovering around trying to join in but they were in a clique of 3 and didn't want another :( We will try out the hs art group when I have a car and we don't have to schedule everything around dh's work time.

I have other friends who are more unschool-y but their kids are barely 3-4yo. It's a really sucky situation for her right now. I hope that she can make some neighborhood friends this summer, but how does an "only" girl bust in when all the other kids already know each other from the bus and such?

I will look into the unconditional parenting video--dh is open to video or even audio, but he totally will not commit to reading a parenting book; I read them and try to summarize, but it doesn't come across quite as well.

[stormborn]

Not much time but wanted to sub; we have some of the same issues.

How old is your dd?

[mattemma04]

I never liked schooling the kids when dh was around. Could you do it in a room/place where dh did not enter? Perhaps consider an online school if you are not able to keep dd on track with lessons each day. Sign her up for a gym/swim class so your are obligated to get her out to exercise.In the least maybe make it mandatory that you take a weekly walk through the park or local garden center.

[mattemma04]

My kids did not like the homeschool gym/swim or art classes. They just liked to swim. Even though my kids are in school now I will tell you the hardship of making friends is not any less. They have *school* friends,but no one ever calls or comes over after class.Keep trying and tell dd not to give up.Tell her to try various approaches to get included into a group of kids,and hopefully one will work.

[craft_media_hero]

Dd is 7.

Yeah, schooling with dh around is really difficult---he has these high expectations that are really "schooly" like she should either be sitting at a desk doing sheet work or outside at "recess" umm, we live here . . . she's not in school. As long as she's on grade level or thereabouts and happy, then I don't feel the need to micromanage her time. What irritates me is that he wants her to be really academic but he doesn't want to do any of the "teaching" so it's like he wants me to follow through on his expectations for hs even though those are not my goals or her goals, they are his goals. Grrr.

So . . . today we all had a big family discussion, and it came out from dh that what he really wants is not for dd to necessarily be in school, but that he wants her to be happy and have all her needs met and sees school as an easy solution for those things to happen. That made me feel a lot softer toward where he's coming from, but the big point to me is that dd doesn't want to go to school, and I don't want her to either. He believes that she is not fundamentally happy, and that's why she's so grumpy toward us, that she needs time away from us and to be around kids. True, but it's not my fault that there are no day time activities here for kids her age outside of school!

I'm not into forcing my kids (or anyone else for that matter) into doing smth they don't want to do, but dh believes that kids should unquestioningly obey their parents and authority figures (which I think is a really dangerous quality to instill in someone)---I know that is a parenting/family values difference, not a homeschool issue, but it's affecting our homeschool because I think dd should pretty much be able to choose what she wants to work on when and in what order, and he thinks it's really important for her to be able to do what she's told whether she wants to do it or not....he thinks that going to school is going to teach her that whereas I just foresee behavioral contracts and lots of heavy discussions and meeting with principles when dd figuratively gives them all the finger in favor of doing what she wants because she does not want to be there.

I agree that she needs to be capable of complying when it's not necessarily what she wants to do at that moment, like being able to work at a job or do wash your laundry when you'd rather be going to a movie or whatever, yes that is a necessary skill in our society. But I see her picking this up a little at a time, and I think that the crash course in conformity and submission is going to cause a lot more headaches and maybe even some long term damage . . . 

Ugh. Thanks for the opportunity to think this out and the feedback.

mattem, thanks for the chin-up about her finding friends. That's the biggest area where I feel like we're failing, though we do try, it just seems like there aren't a lot of opportunities for us right now :(

[lmonter]

The other gals have great points and advice. 

But your dd is 7yo.  Of course she's going to be challenging.  Of course she's going to be grumpy if she's sharing mom/toys/whatever with a sibling.  I have a 7yo boy, 4.5yo boy, 2.5yo girl and 1yo boy.  My 7yo has been testing his limits, been challenging me and hubby, been snappy to his siblings on and off, etc.  We also have that interesting dynamic of hubby working from home now, so keeping them out of the basement so hubby can work is also a big part of our day (they love daddy and have a tendency to gravitate towards him).  We haven't had a chance to get into any hs'ing kids activities (like a local one-day-a-week co-op, swim lessons, gymnastic lessons, etc.) because before we just flat out couldn't afford them.  This year or next we may have the extra in the budget to be able to do something like swim lessons and the co-op so we can try to make more friends in the same age brackets and get out of the house.  But in the meantime...  it's a wild ride.  Just wanted to let you know you're not alone in that boat, and like you, I don't see the public school atmosphere actually helping the situation (with my 7yo, things would get worse - and can you even drag 3 young children with you to the principal's office when you've been summoned?).

[Treece]

Originally Posted by craft_media_hero 

I'm not into forcing my kids (or anyone else for that matter) into doing smth they don't want to do, but dh believes that kids should unquestioningly obey their parents and authority figures (which I think is a really dangerous quality to instill in someone)---I know that is a parenting/family values difference, not a homeschool issue, but it's affecting our homeschool

I whole heartedly agree with this statement: Children should not unquestionably follow adults and authority. My 3 yo told one of his aunts no and she chastised him. I told her he should be able to choose not to do something because someone could tell him to do something bad or whatever and he needs to know he can say no with no retribution. She understood and since then no one has said anything if he is "disagreeable." I like that he has that freedom.

I am also one that feels uncomfortable schooling around dh. We are only preschool level and I think he just doesn't get that being a kid is a learning experience. I am lucky, he's a WOHD. I am SAHM, PTWAHM, and an online student. But still, manage to strew stuff for my 3 yo, and the 1 yo follows.

[craft_media_hero]

Originally Posted by Treece 

I whole heartedly agree with this statement: Children should not unquestionably follow adults and authority. My 3 yo told one of his aunts no and she chastised him. I told her he should be able to choose not to do something because someone could tell him to do something bad or whatever and he needs to know he can say no with no retribution. She understood and since then no one has said anything if he is "disagreeable." I like that he has that freedom.

Yeah, it's weird, on principle dh is all about personal freedom and consensual living, but when it comes to practice, he falls back to old (ineffective) patterns from his relationship with his parents (that totally didn't work for him). I think he is really starting to see that dd does best when we just get out of her way while providing the support she needs to fall back on . . .

Another update---dd has decided that she might actually like to try school in the fall! What? So now I am dealing with my own mommy emotions about that . . . she is so spontaneous and has not gotten that self-consciousness of being "cool" or accepted or whatever that happens so often in this age group. And all her ps'd cousins have bf/gf's at school! I soooo do not approve! So we'll see how it goes. I told her that she has the choice to go in the fall and that if she changes her mind, she can always come back to hs.

gtg, baby waking up!