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Questioning or Former Veg*n Support/Chat - Page 5

post #81 of 89


  So I did it! I cruised around the bacon aisle at the grocery store for a while, but I chickened out every time, like I was buying condoms or nudey mags :) Then I had a plan to buy a chicken from this great place at the farmer's market, Riverdog farms. I buy eggs from them and they have pasture raised chickens with mobile coops and it sounded so perfect. That is until I discovered they sold them with the heads and feet still on. That was one giant leap for ex-veggie-kind. A bit too much too fast. So I opted instead to take things slower and get some fish. 

    I cooked it tonight and it was AMAZING! I was so surprised: nothing felt wrong about it. I felt like the pp who was talking about making yummy noises when she ate. In fact, afterwords me and DH talked about how we both felt "high" and sure enough, both our pupils were dilated. 

   DS was curious and helped me make the fish, touching it and asking questions (like "how do you think the fish feels?" as in the animal not the texture) and seemed curious in a positive way about the whole process, but didn't want to eat any. But he's a picky guy, so that's no surprise. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodhitree View Post

 

erratum, like you I am very sensitive and have a hard time killing insects in my house. The other day I tried to rescue a spider who had gotten stuck on some double-sided tape, but I couldn't figure out how to do it without having to pull the poor thing's legs off. So I know where you're coming from. I guess for me, I am having to make my peace with the fact that we are animals and we cannot eat without taking life. Sure, you can eat only plants, but animals and insects are killed in order to produce those plants, no matter what. I used to think I was minimizing that by being mostly vegan, and I was, when you compare a vegan diet to eating animals who are fed grains. But when you compare a vegan diet to one that includes grassfed organic meat, it's not so clear. When I eat beef, I'm eating a very small part of a large animal, and the collateral damage to other animals and insects that comes along with that is minimal. In fact, eating grassfed beef from the ranch by my town is actually a good thing, since that ranch works hard to improve the ecology on their grazing land, which improves the habitat for all the animals who live there, not just the cattle. I guess what I'm saying is that I used to think it was really simple: if I didn't want to kill, I needed to live off of plants. But now I think that there isn't any way to avoid the karmic burden of killing in order to live, so you might as well take an honest look at the complexity of the situation and make the best choices you can. For me, those choices turned out to be pretty different from what I had imagined, but I feel that my personal integrity is better off for having gone through this process and having moved toward a different (more honest, more "real") dietary pattern. I also believe that taking life in a spirit of gratitude and reverence is very different from doing so in a spirit of denial and unconcern. I am so, so grateful every time I eat meat, and to me eating meat with that awareness is better than eating wheat or beans or whatever with no awareness of everything that has been sacrificed to put food on my plate. Your mileage may vary, of course. I'm just sharing what my experience has been.

 

jkg, I liked how you put it: "I have learned that I have been oh so judgmental and now that it is me weighing my ethics against what my body needs/wants, I am singing a different tune." That's a humbling realization, isn't it? I don't think I would have ever gone down this path if health issues hadn't pretty much forced me to, but actually I'm glad that they did. I think it's good for the soul to have to confront the idea that we might be fundamentally mistaken in our beliefs. Once in a while, at least. I wouldn't want to have to do it too often! lol

 

 

I don't kill spiders, but for an entirely different reason. Some very small part of my brain is convinced, however ridiculous, that if you smash a spider it will release some sort of pheromone that will tell all the other spiders in the world to come and kill you. lol.gif

You've made some really great points here. Another point that I've heard that resonated with me, was that if you care about humane treatment of animals, buying beans does nothing to support that. A better way to strike a blow at factory farms would be putting your money/consumer weight into supporting farms/business with humane and sustainable practices.

     And I think questing your beliefs is a great (albeit difficult) thing. If something is worth believing in, if should stand up to scrutiny. And sometimes beliefs are appropriate for their time, and sometimes they need updating. And admitting that you are wrong/mistaken/in need of change is really something modern people should do more. Personal growth is a great and humbling force and hardheadedness is it's enemy. For instance, in politics,  someone is seen to be "waffling(Sp?) on the issues" if they ever, in the history of their career, change their stance on a subject.  Shouldn't we be glad that a politician saw his mistake and corrected it, or grew with the times and circumstances instead of folding his hands, holding his breath, and stubbornly going down with the ship just because he once voted x on y?

At least is what I'm telling myself to psych myself up for dropping the bomb on my family about the whole "meat thing." ;)


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by craft_media_hero View Post



 


erratum-welcome to our little thread! Like you and bodhitree, I have a problem killing insects, too. I totally let the ants live in my house for a while by postponing spraying them and eventually they just went away, weird, huh? 

 

I craved the bone broth first, I think I wanted the bone broth even more than the meat--my body was telling me that I needed that! The good news is that you don't have to crack the bones, you can just throw them in a pot with a little vinegar or lemon juice, spices, etc. and simmer simmer simmer. The jello-consistency I have yet to achieve with chicken broth--I think it is like the holy grail of bone broth and if you do finally get it, by then you'd probably be pretty psyched about it!

 

I don't know about the dis-membering issue. I kinda forced myself to procure the meat and go through every step of cooking it rather than rely on de-boned chicken or asking my dh to handle it raw--I just really wanted this decision to be MINE, you know? I wanted to own my meat consumption. I felt the same way, that people should be willing to kill it if they want to eat it--I don't know if I could really do that, intellectually, but I always used to tell friends (like you said) 'if I was starving in the woods, I'd definitely kill an animal to eat it' but justifying my vegetarianism that I wasn't in a life or death situation--but maybe we are? I am eating this meat to sustain my own life. For me right now, I am understanding that it is life or death. I don't know if you dig Susun Weed, and this article is primarily about goat-keeping, but if you read through it, she has some really, really awesome insights about "giving death" that I have been pondering since reading it: http://www.susunweed.com/herbal_ezine/July10/healingwise.htm I am still thinking about it . . .

 

I think if I knew how, I would totally go quail-hunting or something to sustain our poultry consumption. We have been cooking a chicken about every other week (for 3-4 meals from each bird)--that's 24 chickens a year! Wow. Would I personally kill two chickens a month to feed my family? I don't know. But I think if dh or I could hunt geese or duck or quail or smth and stock up the freezer once a year, I would feel really good about it. I have friends that do that, and I've got mad respect for them. Plus, it's much cheaper than buying it at the store! 

 

I took dh to a ribs place today and had my first ribs, non-organic and all. The freedom I have to eat where/what I want is so rich, I really am luxuriating in it--not just ordering sides at a restaurant, kwim?

 

joy.gif to you all!


That was a great article. It made me tear up reading it. Thanks.

 

post #82 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by erratum View Post

  And I think questing your beliefs is a great (albeit difficult) thing. If something is worth believing in, if should stand up to scrutiny. And sometimes beliefs are appropriate for their time, and sometimes they need updating. And admitting that you are wrong/mistaken/in need of change is really something modern people should do more. Personal growth is a great and humbling force and hardheadedness is it's enemy. For instance, in politics,  someone is seen to be "waffling(Sp?) on the issues" if they ever, in the history of their career, change their stance on a subject.  Shouldn't we be glad that a politician saw his mistake and corrected it, or grew with the times and circumstances instead of folding his hands, holding his breath, and stubbornly going down with the ship just because he once voted x on y?

nod.gif So true. Very nicely put.
post #83 of 89

Yay erratum! Welcome back to omnivorism. I'm so glad your fish was a good experience for you. eat.gif Yeah, I wouldn't be able to deal with the chicken with head and feet still attached. Maybe sometime in the future, but I'm not quite ready for that yet!

post #84 of 89
Thread Starter 

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by erratum View Post


  So I did it! I cruised around the bacon aisle at the grocery store for a while, but I chickened out every time, like I was buying condoms or nudey mags :) 

 I am ROTFLMAO.gifat this! I totally agree. I felt like that when going into our local natural meats store--like I was going into an "adult bookstore" or something. I still feel kinda weird when checking out of the hfs with meat, like somehow the checkers know I "waffled" or smth.

Quote:

 

That was a great article. It made me tear up reading it. Thanks.

 

thumb.gif Right! I have been thinking about it ever since.

 

 

Oh, people, we have chickens! They are in my downstairs bathroom right now while we build their new home. We have been calling them chocobos ;) I hope that they are all female. I don't want to deal with either giving a rooster away or biting the metaphorical bullet--my mom says if one's a boy, just name him "Dumpling" eyesroll.gif but seriously I don't know if I'm ready to "give death" yet. Anyway, we should start getting some eggs late summer/early fall!

 

I am checking out that herd share--I'm actually excited to try cow milk again! A friend has a little farm and is doing a work trade for produce and may have goat milk available, too. So we will make feta or smth, I'm not sure I'd like straight goat milk, but maybe the kids will.

 

Dh and I are getting to the nitty gritty about how much meat we think we'll eat in the upcoming year and narrowing down farmers to go through--I've noticed that the cost for pastured vs. "natural" (being some amount of feed lot existence) is not prohibitive here for us to buy pastured--being like $30 or so for a bulk purchase. Gosh, meat is expensive! Sticking to $500 a year seems difficult if you eat meat frequently and buy quality. We have been eating meat maybe 2-3x/wk, and I have to say that I notice I feel hungry a lot more often and sooner after meals on veg days. So I would like to be comfortable in knowing that there's plenty in the freezer from one animal, kwim?

 

Anyway . . . .......I bought 3 squid steaks! They were like a dollar a piece. I figure we could slice them into whatsit, calamari strips or find a recipe online and grill them . . .Idk, I just want to be really open-minded and try new things, because formerly all meat was gross so now I'm trying to let go of pre-conceptions regarding food.

 

 

 

 

post #85 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkg View Post

I just recently found this thread and while I still haven't read through the whole thing, so many of you have so succinctly expressed what I have been thinking about the past couple months. I am so sad that my vegan diet dies not seem right for me any more. Part of me feels like perhaps I am not trying hard enough to make it work, but honestly, I no linger have the energy...and that is a big part of my problem. I am weak, tired, unmotivated, and my skin has felt like sandpaper. I just started letting some dairy and eggs back into my diet, and it seems to be helping with my skin (I'm guessing the fats?). I don't anticipate being ready to eat meat ever again, but in some way I wish I could. I have learned that I have been oh so judgmental and now that it is me weighing my ethics against what my body needs/wants, I am singing a different tune.


Hi Jen!!!  Just wanted to say hey, and isn't it funny that our food journeys have been so parallel?  Just wanted you to know that I'm cheering you on, no matter what path you choose.  Adding meat back to our diet has been a good choice for us, but in many ways it has been an identity crisis.  It's all change.  Change is hard, but good.  I'm still trying to harmonize all the different paths of wellness that I aspire to.  But we each have to make our own song, right?  Hugs!

post #86 of 89
Holy WOW, Chessa, YES!! This thread has been very comforting to me and I so wish we didn't live hundreds of miles apart so we could discuss this in person. I am having a really hard time with it. Have your kids gone non-veg too? I made chicken Parmesan one day (I still can't bring myself to eat it, baby steps I guess) and my oldest wanted to know why we were eating that, and then why did I decide I wasn't going to. I did not have a good answer and talked in circles. greensad.gif. Ugh. However, they LOVED it and they actually have color in their faces again. So I think I am on the right path. Now just to figure it out for myself...
post #87 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkg View Post

Holy WOW, Chessa, YES!! This thread has been very comforting to me and I so wish we didn't live hundreds of miles apart so we could discuss this in person. I am having a really hard time with it. Have your kids gone non-veg too? I made chicken Parmesan one day (I still can't bring myself to eat it, baby steps I guess) and my oldest wanted to know why we were eating that, and then why did I decide I wasn't going to. I did not have a good answer and talked in circles. greensad.gif. Ugh. However, they LOVED it and they actually have color in their faces again. So I think I am on the right path. Now just to figure it out for myself...


Yeah, we've all jumped on/off the respective bandwagons. redface.gif  It was some interesting conversation at first, to be sure.  We mainly did it to see if it would help my DH deal with food sensitivities (I think he has leaky gut basically).  The jury is still out whether it is helping, but it doesn't seem to be hurting him or making him worse, and he's no longer saying things like "I think the carrots set me off"  - it seemed like a new vegetarian item a week was making him react and I was starting to pull my hair out trying to meal plan! 

 

Ham is a big hit around here with everyone.  Everyone more or less tolerates chicken (the tofu of meat, IMHO).  I can really get into a good burger, my DH still has mental blocks on red meat but will tolerate it (just not relish it like I do!).  I'd say I've had the easiest transition back.  I just feel fuller, like I'm not hungry all the time or constantly eating dairy to fill me up (still eating dairy, just not as my main protein source).  We eat a LOT of eggs, too.  I'm rolling with it. We went pretty heavy on the meat the last two weeks - we tried grain free for DH for two weeks to see if it had any effect (it didn't - and it's a MAJOR pain and really expensive to do). I'm finding now that I'm craving some of my old veg standbys again.  It's like I had to go off the meat deep-end for a while, get satiated, and now I'm finding a happy medium.  It's been an adventure in meal planning, to be sure!

 

Silas says really funny stuff like, "Poor chicken....oh well, it had a good long life!" chomp chomp chomp lol.gif

 

post #88 of 89

It's so nice to talk to people who get it when i say I'm embarrassed to be seen shopping for meat or eating it in public... feels like driving past a synagogue on Saturday to me!

post #89 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by SandraMort View Post

It's so nice to talk to people who get it when i say I'm embarrassed to be seen shopping for meat or eating it in public... feels like driving past a synagogue on Saturday to me!


I know what you mean!! I feel like a "closeted" dairy consumer. I find myself buying eggs and dairy and hiding them under other items in case I see anyone I know. How do you go about explaining your change of heart?
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