Those who do not tolerate lying, are there ever exceptions?

[amcal]

We have a zero tolerance policy for lying.

Since my children were very young, they've alway known that if they tell me the truth, I will never get angry and will always help them deal with the situation in a calm manner, however, they know if they lie to me, there will be serious consequences.

So far, my children are very honest.

So, a few days ago, my 9 yo told me that a girl at her table in school was teaching the other 4 children at their able about the "F" word. My DD had never heard the word but her gut told her it wasn't ok so, she came home and we talked about it.

It just so happened that I had a conference scheduled with her teacher today and told DD that I planned to bring this up with the teacher.

DD was fine with this but was worried that if the teacher talks to this girl that she's going to go back to the table and ask who told. DD doesn't want to look like a rat.

So, what to do? Let her deny she said anything? But, that would be advocating a lie.

We did talk about standing up for what she believes, not worrying about what others think but, in 3rd grade, that's hard. She doesn't want to be seen as a snitch. And really, I'm the one who talked to the teacher, not her.

So, how would you handle it?

[meemee]

dunno amcal.

for me personally F word is not worth bringing up to teacher in 3rd grade. its about the age when the kids start whispering about these words.

however this is the beginning of realising the dilema. welcome to real life.

and unfortunately if dd sees this as something important enough to bring up with the teacher she has to also accept the consequences. its something even the adults struggle with. 

i have no clue if there is an acceptable answer. 

[Polliwog]

I've read the OP three times and can't see what the lie is.

[omelette]

IIf you feel you need to tell the teacher then you should.  You could talk to the teacher about your daughter feeling uncomfortable about the girl coming to the table and asking who told and ask the teacher how she will deal with the situation.

As a teacher myself, I wouldn't talk to the girl unless this was something ongoing and the teacher probably already knows if it is a problem with this child or not.  I would have a class chat about appropriate language (not pointing fingers at the one who informed the teacher or the one who used the language), going over what is ok, what is not and what to do if you hear language that makes you uncomfortable.  It's worth reviewing those expectations from time to time b/c as the previous poster said some of them are hearing new words for the first time, they know they're not ok but are experimenting with them or trying to figure out why they're not ok

eta:  If the girl is spoken to by the teacher and does come back to the table of girls asking who told I don't think you should tell your daughter to deny it.  She should just tell the girl it made her uncomfortable and she talked to her mom about it.  Stuff like this happens often in classroom; the other girl (and your daughter too) will likely forget about it by the end of the day and it's not likely she's going to hold anything against your daughter.

[HollyBearsMom]

I don't see the need to bring it up with the teacher.  Can I ask why you feel it is so important? It is completely age appropriate to explore the power of "swear" words.  

Instead of focusing on the fact your daughter might "lie" why not focus on teaching your daughter to speak for herself.  She was comfortable enough to come and talk to you about the fact the conversation/word bothered her.  Why not role play how to handle it if the girl(s) bring it up again. Empower her to say "I really don't like that word.  Can we not talk about and/or please don't use it".

If the teacher does talk to the individual girl (which would surprise me as it a he said/she said situation) then role play with your daughter how to stand up for her beliefs if that girl does confront the group.

Honestly- this is just the beginning of your daughter finding herself in situations with her peers that make her uncomfortable. She may or may not continue talking to you about them so it is in your best interest to give her the words and confidence to protect herself. 

[beanma]

I have a first grader and a fourth grader and I agree with the PPs that I wouldn't have brought this up to the teacher at all. I think it's great that your dd brought it to you, but I think then your job is to help her deal with her feelings about it, not for you to go tattling to the teacher on her behalf. At some point in the future she's going to hear the F word and all the other words, too. Different kids hear different things in their home and on TV, movies, etc. There's a good possibility that the girl who was "teaching" the other girls really doesn't know what it means. I know I got some wrong information about the middle finger that stuck with me way too long. (I was told it meant "go to H"). It was years and years before I figured that one out!

[meemee]

ooooh mamas i so agree.

empowering the child. 

yes. yes. yes. at that age standing up is a GREAT idea. 

middle school is the time when statistically school performance drops in school and by high school the gap between boys and girls performance widen because of the focus on the image of girls amongst other reasons. 

so i think its really important to get girls to stand up for themselves. 

[BellinghamCrunchie]

I agree with the PPs who said it wasn't your responsibility to bring it to the teacher because it isn't an issue of enough significance, and that the focus should probably be how can you help your daughter negotiate what is just the beginning of unwanted behavior from others (swearing is just the first. Later there will be information given about sex, drugs, etc). But anyway, that wasn't really the question, was it?

You wanted to know if there are exceptions when you have a zero tolerance policy for lying.

No - if you have a zero tolerance policy for lying, there are no exceptions. That is what zero tolerance means.

Its also why you might re-think if you really want to have a zero tolerance policy. It will put your daughter in very difficult positions at times, if you maintain a zero tolerance policy.

She will have to choose between being loyal to and respecting her friends, even when they say or do something that's inappropriate, vs. being loyal to her family's zero tolerance values. That can be a very conflicted and difficult place to be. While other children can easily put things into the category of "that's wrong but its also no big deal" your daughter is being taught all things are of equal value.

Instead of learning to negotiate the gray areas of the world, and learning the difference between not telling when your friend says she copied her homework from another kid vs. not telling when your friend says "I'm going to kill myself please don't tell anyone" your daughter has everything written out for her in black and white. Everything is of equal consideration when you have a zero tolerance policy.

And just trying to negotiate social conventions when your policy is NO LYING WHATSOEVER - I can imagine how that would go - "do you like my new haircut?"

[Rani]

This is why "zero tolerance" never works. Are you truly saying that you tell the truth 100%?  No gramma I think your soup tastes like mud.  That hat is a disaster, etc.  There are times and places for white lies that grease the wheels of civilization.  As to your daughter. I agree..I would not have brought it to the teacher. I would have also discussed as you did the possibilities and let my dd decide what she would do.  If she was not comfortable standing up to it, if accosted by the other girl, I would have supported that decision. Not everyone is in a place where they can face such pressure in that moment at that time.

I teach my daughter that truth is always best but to err on the side of kindness in some situations.  Nothing is black and white in this world so I teach her how to handle the grey spaces.

[prothyraia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rani 

This is why "zero tolerance" never works. Are you truly saying that you tell the truth 100%?  No gramma I think your soup tastes like mud.  That hat is a disaster, etc.  There are times and places for white lies that grease the wheels of civilization.  As to your daughter. I agree..I would not have brought it to the teacher. I would have also discussed as you did the possibilities and let my dd decide what she would do.  If she was not comfortable standing up to it, if accosted by the other girl, I would have supported that decision. Not everyone is in a place where they can face such pressure in that moment at that time.

I teach my daughter that truth is always best but to err on the side of kindness in some situations.  Nothing is black and white in this world so I teach her how to handle the grey spaces.

In defense of not lying, there are ways to be polite without saying something that's not true.  "How's the soup?"   "I can really taste the garlic- it's one of my favorite spices"    "What do you think of my hat?" "It's a gorgeous color!"    White lies are generally completely unnecessary, and if someone is really pressing an issue because they're insecure about something it's better to get to the root of the insecurity than just toss off "no, the jeans don't make your butt look big".

Now, for this particular situation- I wouldn't bring it up to the teacher, personally.  And if you did, your daughter can say with perfect accuracy that she didn't tell the teacher. 

My kids aren't at an age where we really have to deal with this yet, but I wonder about how realistic it is to enforce a complete no lying policy on someone else.  I mean, say she swears to her friends that she didn't tell ANYone about the cursing, and then you ask her about what she told her friends, and she either lies again or owns up to a previous lie and gets in trouble....    I think this may be an area where modeling your own values and supporting her in making difficult decisions by actually letting her make "poor" decisions sometimes and talking through them without consequences might be the best way to go.

I think the benefits of honesty (even when it's more difficult) and the disadvantages of lying in social situations are pretty clear when you've tried both, but I also think it's something that people have to figure out for themselves. 

[MusicianDad]

Gonna have to agree with Rani, zero tolerance doesn't work in the real world. What happens if a friend asks you if another friend is planning a surprise party for them, and they are? The only way to keep it a surprise is to say "no". Anything else implies "yes"... Tell the truth and you just ruined something nice someone was putting a whole lot of effort into. Lie, and no one gets hurt.

[amcal]

It's hard to define family dynamics on a message board but, as far as the zero tolerance policy for lying - it works in our family.  We talk about each situation as it comes up, but, our children understand how it works in our family and it's not something that can really be explained via a message board.  They know the difference between a lie and keeping a surprise.  The know the difference between cushioning the truth to spare feelings and outright lying about something important.  But, it's an ongoing process so there are times they'll check things out with me first for guidance on how to deal with a sticky situation.  This is one of those situations.

And, I told the teacher because it was an ongoing problem.  DD did try to tell this girl that she felt it was inappropriate.  My DD is a very confident and empowered.  She stands up for what she believes in but, this girl continued on and on.  She kept going on about all the words her mom "lets" her say including other off color words.  And, this wasn't playground talk, it was happening during class time which I felt the teacher needed to know.  DD was the only one of 5 other students who said anything to her about it being inappropriate but, after a while, it's tough to continue to stand on your own.  So, she did try to deal with it on her own. 

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts. 

[meemee]

aaaaaaah mama. so how was this handled? did the teacher talk in incognito and give a general lecture to the class?

i am sure the teacher herself has to make a decision. 

[amcal]

I have no idea how it will handed.

I didn't make a huge deal out of it, more just brought it to her attention that this was going on during class and DD tried to handle it but it continued. I didn't try to make the other girl out to be terrible or even abnormal. I told the teacher that I understand kids are curious, they talk, they use inappropriate words without maybe really understanding them etc.... But, I just thought she should know because it does affect my DD during class time.

The nice thing about our school is that the parents have an 80 hour volunteer requirement so, parents are in the classroom a lot which results in getting to know teachers on a deeper level and, teachers getting to know parents. I'm guessing the teacher will have a casual conversation with the mom on one of her volunteer days. But, that's just a guess.

[Annie Mac]

Originally Posted by beanma 

. There's a good possibility that the girl who was "teaching" the other girls really doesn't know what it means. I know I got some wrong information about the middle finger that stuck with me way too long. (I was told it meant "go to H"). It was years and years before I figured that one out!

I was told it was a greeting, like saying hello. Yup. I remember one trip into the town (about 40 mins on the highway), 3 little girls stuffed into the back seat of a station wagon facing backwards (back in the days where buckling up was uncommon),. There we were, saying "hello" to all the cars around us, my friend's mom totally oblivious to the whole thing!

OP, I know it's been resolved, but I had couple thoughts. One, I agree with the other PPs who couldn't see the lie. You don't need full discloser 100% of the time to everyone to be honest. Two, I wonder if this was a way to discuss with you what the f-word really means? Maybe she wasn't really upset about it, but didn't know how she should feel, so she thought she'd bring up the scenario to mom and see how she reacted. It sounds like you have a good, open relationship with your child. Nice :)