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post #41 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post


Agreed. I think that this book (and many other parenting books) assume that if a parent does X, the child will turn out Y. It just ain't so. Every body gets free will. Our children have free will. What we do *may* impact how they turn out, but ultimately they make the real choices about what sort of people they become. Any parent who really believes otherwise is just living in denial.

 

I parent the way I do because I am following my own moral compass. I'm not under a delusion that raising a human being is like baking a batch of cookie -- if you start with a good recipe and follow all the directions just right, they turn out fine.

 

It's definitely not a recipe. I know that things that worked beautifully with ds1 have needed some shifting with dd1, and ds2 is a whole other person, with little in common with either of his older siblings. I'm still working on getting a handle on what makes him tick, and I have no idea if I'm doing anything right with him. I know that what we do impacts them, but I think it's very difficult, if not impossible, to see how it will impact them, until it happens.

 

 

I'm 45 and agree with you. I think there is a VERY strong trend of being more connected to kids now, and staying connected as they move into the teen years. I see it all over the place.

 

I also think that there are HUGE variances in how different families do things, so anytime I read something like "The gap opening up between children and parents can seem unbridgeable at times" I immediately start thinking of all the exceptions I know.

 

I'm almost 43, and I both agree and disagree (and I did love the book). I see a lot more parents who are more involved with their kids, in many ways, than many parents seemed to be when I was a kid. But, I don't think that's the same thing that Neufeld is talking about, and I don't think it has much to do with being a compass point. (I'm with my kids more than my mom was - she was also a SAHM, and very involved, but we were in school all day by dd1 and ds2's ages, and I'm homeschooling.) I don't think I'm any more of a compass point than my my mom was. I do know several families where the parents are connected to their kids, but more like I remember being with my peers than in a more parental role. There's not a lot of guidance, and a lot more concern with being buddy-buddy than with being parents. I don't think  parents have to be particularly authoritarian, but I do see parents (I know a couple quite well) who seem content to pass off the guidance/wisdom/life learning part of parenting to their children's friends or the tv. That was the kind of thing that I felt Neufeld was addressing, more than how much time we spend with them, exactly.

 

Mind you, I honestly see media influence as a bigger factor than peer orientation, as such. I think a lot of the kids/teens in question are taking their cues from tv, movies, etc. and then they're being reinforced within the peer group.

 

I just got back from a gardening work day at my kids' school -- parents and teens working together on what really is a community garden. I'm sure that what the book says is true about some families, but it just isn't what I see around me.

 

That sounds cool.

post #42 of 75


 

 I must confess I also read the book about 7 years ago, so I don’t remember everything.  I  guess  it was only the south of France  that was the other culture mentioned.  At the time I found it strange since the majority of French (meaning in France NOT French Canadian) are not definitely not into attachment parenting.

I do believe in the idea of the book, that attachment parenting is the right thing.      


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elisheva View Post

  Re: Europe - the only example he give, AFAIK, is of families in a village in Provence where he observed older generations picking the schoolchildren up at the school gate in the afternoon...he says that most Western industrialized nations have the problem of peer orientation but it seems less in some smaller villages.

 

   

post #43 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post




IMO, nothing guarantees moral behaviour. The rest of your questions I'll have to think about. I have opinions on them, but they're hard for me to articulate. So far, things have worked well for us. My oldest son is highly extraverted (which has been interesting for us, as dh and I are both introverted), very social, and places very high importance on peer relationships. He eats dinner with us only about 2-3 times a week now, due to his various activities, social engagements (hanging out at his best friend's house, spending time with his girlfriend, and just generally spending time with his friends), and work. I woudl still say that his orientation has been to his parents, not his peers. I'm just not sure how to descibe the "vibe" in words.

Thanks. This answers my question. Sounds like it doesnt have to be an issue, which is why Neufeld probably didnt address it.
 

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post

 

 

I parent the way I do because I am following my own moral compass. I'm not under a delusion that raising a human being is like baking a batch of cookie -- if you start with a good recipe and follow all the directions just right, they turn out fine.

 

 

 I agree with this too. I do attachment parenting because its seems the ethical thing to do. Im following my  internal moral compass.  Im not doing it because i want my kids to turn out a certain way. Im just doing the best i can. I think the book goes deeper than this though. Its  not advocating a type of parenting so much, as providing an explanation for how families can come apart, even if parents, like me, are doing the best they can.  Its explaining ways to circumvent this. 


 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by journeymom View Post

OP, could you explain what the negative consequence of peer orientation is as Neufeld defines it? What bad things happen when kids are peer oriented, and not parent oriented?
 

 

Im not the OP, but for me the reason the book was so interesting, is that it provides a solid explanation for how and why so much can go wrong, and for me, even goes so far as to explain the root of evil itself.

 

Among teenagers-bullying, going as  far as murder,  casual sex going as far as rape and rampant exploitation of those lower in the peer group heirarchy, drug use and addiction among minors, total disregard and lack of respect for family members especially parents (the whole rebellion thing gone to an extreme). He made the astute observation that the very definition of 'cool' was to be  out of touch with one's emotions, needs and vulnerabilities and its amoral consequences. Anything that goes wrong in the 'youth' category,  has its roots in peer orientation.

 

You really have to read the book.  

post #44 of 75

I haven't read that book, but I am currently reading another with a theme that is similar called Parenting Without Power Struggles and the author does a really good job of explaining why we should be trying to keep our connection to our children strong and why we shouldn't just accept that they are going to be totally peer-oriented.  She basically says that childrens' peers tend to be flighty and relying on them isn't a good idea because they aren't a solid and secure presence.  She also seems to distinguish between spending time with peers, even a lot of time, and being peer-oriented.  She has strategies for re-building the connection as well as other advice.  I haven't finished the book, but it makes more sense now and I am planning on picking up Hold Onto Your Kids now also because I do see how total peer-orientation can be a problem.  My dd has always loved her friends and spending time with them but also is mostly family oriented and I would like to keep it that way as much as possible.

post #45 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by contactmaya View Post



 


 
 

 

Im not the OP, but for me the reason the book was so interesting, is that it provides a solid explanation for how and why so much can go wrong, and for me, even goes so far as to explain the root of evil itself.

 

Among teenagers-bullying, going as  far as murder,  casual sex going as far as rape and rampant exploitation of those lower in the peer group heirarchy, drug use and addiction among minors, total disregard and lack of respect for family members especially parents (the whole rebellion thing gone to an extreme). He made the astute observation that the very definition of 'cool' was to be  out of touch with one's emotions, needs and vulnerabilities and its amoral consequences. Anything that goes wrong in the 'youth' category,  has its roots in peer orientation.

 

You really have to read the book.  



I think that this is an unrealistic picture of what I know of young people.  It would be reductionist and simplistic to attribute the above issues to peer orientation.  I'm sorry, but rape doesn't have anything to do with peer orientation, neither does murder, nor does being out of touch with emotions, or being "amoral".  This is fear mongering, and frankly I think it is disrespectful to young people.  If you are dealing with the above issues related to your children, there's more going on than kids relating to their peers.  

 

Respect, consistency, empathy, understanding of developmental needs, flexibility......these are the attributes that I have found to promote and maintain solid attachment during the preteen/teen years, not fear and resistance to change.

post #46 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by karne View Post





I think that this is an unrealistic picture of what I know of young people.  It would be reductionist and simplistic to attribute the above issues to peer orientation.  I'm sorry, but rape doesn't have anything to do with peer orientation, neither does murder, nor does being out of touch with emotions, or being "amoral".  This is fear mongering, and frankly I think it is disrespectful to young people.  If you are dealing with the above issues related to your children, there's more going on than kids relating to their peers.  

 

Respect, consistency, empathy, understanding of developmental needs, flexibility......these are the attributes that I have found to promote and maintain solid attachment during the preteen/teen years, not fear and resistance to change.


I agree with this.

 

Also, I believe that no peerage in your life is terrible thing. That's one thing that makes me worry about some of the more isolated homeschoolers.

post #47 of 75

I loved the book...the author spoke at a seminar I attended and brought it all home even more.  He made a lot of sense to me in regards to my own adolescence, and there were a lot of things that I found to be true, in my case.  Looking back, I think I was a fairly "troubled" teen...I had trouble finding my space, and never felt like I truly fit in, and in an effort to do so, did some things that I wished I could undo!  Nothing really crazy, just stuff I was not comfortable with, but lacked the "guts" to say "no."  My own parents were fairly detached...my mother had MS, and struggled with depression, sort of was trying to deal with her own demons, and I'm almost sure (now that I have some experience with it) that my Dad has an ASD.  I think I was eventually able to find my way because my best friend was part of a family where her (single) mom was very much the "compass."  I looked for someone to "attach" myself to, and my best friend was there, and because she was "attached" to her mother, her mother sort of became my "other" mother, if that makes any sense?  When I look back, it was there, in that house, where I can say I felt unconditionally loved.  I spent the majority of my days there, and you'd think they would have gotten sick of me and told me to go home, but I was always welcome, as were other "unattached" people!  My parents did the best they could, given what they were dealing with at the time, but I believe that, had my friend's family not been where I turned, I may not have come out of it relatively unscathed!

 

After having read the book, making sure that I am my son's "compass" is something I think about.  DS is 9, and there have been times where it seems like his friends (and what his friends think) becomes the driving force in his decisions.  I don't know, I just get a feeling sometimes that his peers are starting to have a little too much influence over him, and that I have somehow become secondary.  When this happens, I start to think of ways to re-connect.  I don't limit his time with others, which only creates resentment, but I find ways to insert myself into their group.  To this point, that has included such things as inviting them all to paint pictures, or make pinatas...creating something usually works nicely...and I don't just hand out instructions and supplies, I get right in there and participate.  Sometimes we'll play ball with them, or something...just play.  All of a sudden, DS and his friends are looking towards me and I have become the compass for the whole group!  I'm not sure what will work as DS gets older, but we'll figure it out as we go...I imagine sports will play a big part.  I try hard to make this house a place where they always feel comfortable and welcome, just as my "other" mother did for me.  In my mind, it's not so much about keeping the other influences out, but rather inviting the other influences in, and having them all realize that I, as a person, have value, and deserve respect, and that they will also be respected here.              

post #48 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by karne View Post





I think that this is an unrealistic picture of what I know of young people.  It would be reductionist and simplistic to attribute the above issues to peer orientation.  I'm sorry, but rape doesn't have anything to do with peer orientation, neither does murder, nor does being out of touch with emotions, or being "amoral".  This is fear mongering, and frankly I think it is disrespectful to young people.  If you are dealing with the above issues related to your children, there's more going on than kids relating to their peers.  

 

Respect, consistency, empathy, understanding of developmental needs, flexibility......these are the attributes that I have found to promote and maintain solid attachment during the preteen/teen years, not fear and resistance to change.


Have you read the book? 

 

It isn't a blanket "peer orientation=murder" statement.  It's a general idea that pop culture (and peer orientation) doesn't foster empathy, respect, consistency, understanding of developmental needs, flexibility, etc. 

 

I agree with your points, and the book does too, so I don't really understand why you seem to disagree with it so strongly.  Maybe I am misunderstanding something.

 

Tjej

post #49 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by karne View Post





I think that this is an unrealistic picture of what I know of young people.  It would be reductionist and simplistic to attribute the above issues to peer orientation.  I'm sorry, but rape doesn't have anything to do with peer orientation, neither does murder, nor does being out of touch with emotions, or being "amoral".  This is fear mongering, and frankly I think it is disrespectful to young people.  If you are dealing with the above issues related to your children, there's more going on than kids relating to their peers.  

 

Respect, consistency, empathy, understanding of developmental needs, flexibility......these are the attributes that I have found to promote and maintain solid attachment during the preteen/teen years, not fear and resistance to change.


 

As i said, you have to read the book to see the connections. People almost always criticize the book before reading it.

 

I agree that all of these things cannot t be reduced to one simple explanation, but i think the book does a good job of explaining how peer orientation can lead to amoral behaviour. 

I dont  think the book is about resisting change. I also dont think it is fear mongering.  It provides a solid explanation for particular social phenonemon that begs an explanation. Bullying is a phenonmenon in all schools. How do you explain that?

 

As someone who has read the book, and liked it,  I  am not fearful of 'peers' or 'young people'.  For me, Neufeld provides an explanation of something that requires it. Because my son is an extravert, i paid closer attention, but now i see that doesnt have to be a problem from Neufeld's perspective.

 

Providing an explanation is not fear mongering.

(I can see how someone could see this book as fear mongering, but i think its a misunderstanding.)

 

 

post #50 of 75

Thanks for posting this. I was moved by how you attached to your friends single mother. And your explanation of how  you interact with your sons peers helps me

better understand things too.
My 5yo is very easily influenced by his peers, and i figure that is a developmentally normal thing. Its knowing where to draw the line, or when his orientation has

actually moved away from me, thats the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trac View Post

I loved the book...the author spoke at a seminar I attended and brought it all home even more.  He made a lot of sense to me in regards to my own adolescence, and there were a lot of things that I found to be true, in my case.  Looking back, I think I was a fairly "troubled" teen...I had trouble finding my space, and never felt like I truly fit in, and in an effort to do so, did some things that I wished I could undo!  Nothing really crazy, just stuff I was not comfortable with, but lacked the "guts" to say "no."  My own parents were fairly detached...my mother had MS, and struggled with depression, sort of was trying to deal with her own demons, and I'm almost sure (now that I have some experience with it) that my Dad has an ASD.  I think I was eventually able to find my way because my best friend was part of a family where her (single) mom was very much the "compass."  I looked for someone to "attach" myself to, and my best friend was there, and because she was "attached" to her mother, her mother sort of became my "other" mother, if that makes any sense?  When I look back, it was there, in that house, where I can say I felt unconditionally loved.  I spent the majority of my days there, and you'd think they would have gotten sick of me and told me to go home, but I was always welcome, as were other "unattached" people!  My parents did the best they could, given what they were dealing with at the time, but I believe that, had my friend's family not been where I turned, I may not have come out of it relatively unscathed!

 

After having read the book, making sure that I am my son's "compass" is something I think about.  DS is 9, and there have been times where it seems like his friends (and what his friends think) becomes the driving force in his decisions.  I don't know, I just get a feeling sometimes that his peers are starting to have a little too much influence over him, and that I have somehow become secondary.  When this happens, I start to think of ways to re-connect.  I don't limit his time with others, which only creates resentment, but I find ways to insert myself into their group.  To this point, that has included such things as inviting them all to paint pictures, or make pinatas...creating something usually works nicely...and I don't just hand out instructions and supplies, I get right in there and participate.  Sometimes we'll play ball with them, or something...just play.  All of a sudden, DS and his friends are looking towards me and I have become the compass for the whole group!  I'm not sure what will work as DS gets older, but we'll figure it out as we go...I imagine sports will play a big part.  I try hard to make this house a place where they always feel comfortable and welcome, just as my "other" mother did for me.  In my mind, it's not so much about keeping the other influences out, but rather inviting the other influences in, and having them all realize that I, as a person, have value, and deserve respect, and that they will also be respected here.              

post #51 of 75

 

Quote:
-bullying, going as  far as murder,  casual sex going as far as rape and rampant exploitation of those lower in the peer group hierarchy, drug use and addiction among minors, total disregard and lack of respect for family members especially parents (the whole rebellion thing gone to an extreme).

 

 

Thanks, that makes sense to me, and I completely agree that those are dire consequences.  And I get how this can be the result of peer orientation versus parent orientation.  It all needs to be considered within context.

post #52 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by contactmaya View Post

 

My 5yo is very easily influenced by his peers, and i figure that is a developmentally normal thing. Its knowing where to draw the line, or when his orientation has

actually moved away from me, thats the question.


 


I think Neufeld offers some very helpful suggestions in this regard (in the last section of the book) - "connect before you correct" is one I really try to work on with my kids. I try to connect with them first in the morning (remember his example about spending 10 min just snuggling and chatting with his kids and how much easier the morning would go?) and again throughout the day when we're transitioning or if I feel they need it. I'm not perfect and I often forget to do this then wonder why I'm having problems...but I do try to keep it in mind. I think making sure you connect with your son cements your position as his compass and it frees him to pursue his friendships. 

post #53 of 75

Bump

 

(this thread has been really helpful to me-so great to hear from more experienced moms/mums out there too.

I hope its been as helpful to the OP, and others)

post #54 of 75

I have been resisting this book as the title really turned me off. However, I have overcome my disliking the title, and bought myself a copy (still to arrive). I think I will really enjoy it. I like the sound of reconnecting in the mornings, after naps or other separations. I really am not comfortable with the idea of controlling my children's friends (they are 3years and 3 months respectively lol.gif so, yeah, not a big issue yet). But I get that that is not what the book is about. The title just comes off like that.

post #55 of 75

I see a lot of parents thinking they are of little value to their children, other than to give money. I can really see the damage in this these days. Parents don't know their children. They feel it is none of their business what their children are up to. They are shocked when their children end up on drugs or pregnant or sexually transmitted diseases or with drinking problems...etc. They tolerate the children being nasty to them because they figure that is just how kids are. I am unsure why people even have children when they are like this. 

 

Kids need a good solid family foundation to carry them through life. Children should learn their values and such from their parents. That is my definite opinion.

post #56 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by ema-adama View Post

I have been resisting this book as the title really turned me off. However, I have overcome my disliking the title, and bought myself a copy (still to arrive). I think I will really enjoy it. I like the sound of reconnecting in the mornings, after naps or other separations. I really am not comfortable with the idea of controlling my children's friends (they are 3years and 3 months respectively lol.gif so, yeah, not a big issue yet). But I get that that is not what the book is about. The title just comes off like that.

the book for me was redundant. in fact because of this thread i am reading it again right now.

 

and i feel it is not telling me anything new. if you follow AP then you are pretty much doing this. 

 

i can see it being a treasure for those not invested in their children. 

 

or a reminder to why it is important to connect with ur kids. 

 

 

post #57 of 75

It's interesting to read that some people have really connected with the message of HOTYK and others not-so-much...I'm just curious: if you really connected with/like this book, were you disconnected from your parents in adolescence? I was definitely peer-oriented - would sneak around behind my mother's back, not listen to her advice on ANYTHING, would get REALLY upset if I was being given the cold-shoulder by my "friends" and it would feel like my world was falling apart...I know it's considered the cultural norm to think your parents are idiots when you're a teenager, but I agree with Neufeld that it hasn't always been like that historically and it's NOT desirable.

post #58 of 75

In my case no, i never went through the parent-rebellious stage as a teenager, because i felt i could do what i wanted anyway. I was in a band with my brothers and we played in night clubs although underaged. For some reason i  was never tempted by the alcohol/drugs/cigarettes that were readily available, probably because i was oriented more to my siblings, probably parents too...

 

The book resonated with me because i find its explanation of  certain things compelling. Also because my son is such an extravert and showed signs of peer orientation from a young age. I realize now that its not really orientation per se.

 

I dont know why more people dont find this book compelling.  Maybe i see things more from an anthropological perspective...

post #59 of 75

I started it, but I couldn't get very far.  I found it fear mongering, and didn't think that it was all that based in reality, or history.  Particularly history.

 

It seemed like a book written for parents with young children who themselves had poor relationships with their parents.  I think it's interesting on this thread that most of the people who liked the book admit to this, and most of the people saying they didn't like the book have older kids or say that had a good relationship with their parents.  I agree with whoever said it was like the Continuum Concept: nice in theory, not so realistic in practice.

post #60 of 75
Thread Starter 

OP here...I've really enjoyed reading all the responses.

 

I enjoyed the book and I had a very good relationship with my parents - my family was very close and we did a lot of family things together - vacations, game nights, going out to eat, etc.  Even when I was a teenager, there were some weekend nights when I preferred to stay home and hang out with my family instead of my friends.

 

I have two sisters and none of us really became peer oriented or rebelled,. we all maintained a good relationship with my parents which continues today....we all went to public school and had many friends and were involved in tons of activities (probably too many!)

 

I think that's one reason the book struck a chord for me - my mom stayed home with us and slowly went back to work (as a nurse) as we got older, only going to back to work full time when my youngest sister was in college.  She really focused on building a strong family relationship and my sisters and I avoided a lot of the typical teen age drama and r/ship breakdown with parents.

 

It also struck a chord because I work with college students now and i am amazed at many of their inabilities ot hold a conversation with anyone outside of their peer group.  It's like they have grown up just learning how to communicate with each other and struggle to talk with anyone who is older, or even younger (I have a 2 year old and some college students are great with her but it's clear many of them have no idea what to do with a baby or a toddler)

 

They also see no value in asking older people for advice.  They go to one another for help in solving problems and many of them don't see much value in mentorship or getting to know older adults.  In my job, there is the possibility for a lot of mentorship and I was really surprised with how many students just aren't interested in getting to know myself or my colleagues.  I was talking with a colleague from Hungary and one from Kenya and they both expressed the same surprise that young people don't want to get to know them, and they both commented how different it is in their countries and how young people have many relationships with older people and often value insight and wisdom from those who are older.

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