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Traditional Catholic Moms Spring/Summer 2011 - Page 12

post #221 of 293

Beth, children have a way of bringing our baggage out and forcing us to deal with it.  I guess I would start with examining your beliefs.  Is kissing on the lips something that you believe should only be a romantic gesture between husband and wife, or do you believe that it can be a loving gesture between parent/child, siblings, engaged couples, or friends?  If it is the former, then this is where you lay the foundation for teaching her your beliefs about chastity by telling her that you love her very much and you want to allow her to save kisses on the lips for the very special man who will be her husband, so you will kiss her on her cheek, on her head, on her hand, etc, but you'll save her lips for her husband.  If it is the latter, then you may have to work to define what kissing means better for her.

 

Another way to consider the question is do you feel uncomfortable with kissing her on the lips because you feel that it is wrong, or are you uncomfortable of it only because of your own baggage?  If it is the latter, your situation is more complicated because you're trying to hold your daughter to a boundary that is a personal but not a moral boundary.  You can still address it by talking about personal boundaries, but it's hard for a child to comprehend.  This does leave open the possibility that your personal boundary could change someday.  Either way, this is an opportunity for you to seek healing from your past.

post #222 of 293

I would not see kissing on the lips as sexual at all, but I am not American. There are many countries in which kids are kissed on the lips, just the same as on the cheeks. Of course it can be that she sees mama and daddy do that and wonders because of it. It can also simply seem like what people who love each other do. Since you are uncomfortable kissing her on the lips, maybe you would like the book The Princess kiss, which talks about saving your first kiss. 

 

PatienceAndLove, would love to hear how you are doing.

 

We just heard that our changes of getting a regular TLM are all of a sudden much better than ever, due to a priest moving. Very exciting!

 

We got our first call last week for a short term fostering placement. It was not what we had agreed to and the circumstances were not right at all, so we had to say no. Our 6 yo was upset about it, asking how it was possible that I turned down an opportunity to help someone in need. :) It wa simply, because we were not the right people to help in that particular situation. I do love it, though, how seriously she is tatking the needs of others. Meanwhile, her great sadness about not having a sibling has changed or disappeared. She still talks about "if we have a baby one day" but it not as emotional and she is very excited about fostering.

 

God is good... even in the middle of all the sufferings and whatever!

post #223 of 293
I kiss my kids, parents, relatives, etc on the lips all of the time - and I'm American, so I think this must either be a personal moral belief or a personal belief due to her history. I did have a period with my DD where she wanted to do long kisses on the mouth and I had to explain (over and over) that it was inappropriate because I was her mother and also not a male.

Anyway, I think JMJ's idea of examining exactly what your reasons for being uncomfortable with this are is a good one. Hope you get past this soon. I know how awkward this type of thing can be.

LTB - I'm glad your daughter is so excited about your new adventure. Been thinking about you.
post #224 of 293

Thanks everyone for the quick replies. I hesitated to post this here because it's not really about faith, but I also worry sometimes about posting things in the larger age-groups forum because I imagine just suggesting that kisses on the mouth may be inappropriate outside of marriage would be laughed at! I really want her to grow up understanding the beauty of the Church's teaching about our bodies, especially since it took me so long to get there (and I'm still working on it every day, actually.)

 

You all raise good points. My concerns are two-fold: I worry about normalizing what (to my mind) is a prelude for romantic kissing a child and how that might make her unable to understand her own boundaries, and yes, I was kissed inappropriately under various circumstances as a child and young teenager, and it makes *me* feel VERY WEIRD when she kisses me on the lips, especially because she holds my face in her hands and plants one on me. (I don't even like DH to do that!) 

 

Of course, she has seen non-married folks kiss on the lips all the time, and now that I'm thinking of it, is going through a fairy tale phase that probably feeds into this. Maybe it's time to work on a more nuanced approach. Sigh.

 

Thanks for helping me think this through! Going to think and pray about this some more. It's such an awesome responsibility to think about -- trying to raise a child not only to be wise, faithful, honest, etc. but also to have a healthy perspective on sexuality. So glad I'm not doing it alone!

 

post #225 of 293
Quote:

Originally Posted by sarahsmiles View Post

You all raise good points. My concerns are two-fold: I worry about normalizing what (to my mind) is a prelude for romantic kissing a child and how that might make her unable to understand her own boundaries, and yes, I was kissed inappropriately under various circumstances as a child and young teenager, and it makes *me* feel VERY WEIRD when she kisses me on the lips, especially because she holds my face in her hands and plants one on me. (I don't even like DH to do that!) 


It sounds like it's a good time to talk about boundaries.  It is absolutely NOT OK to kiss someone who does not want a kiss or in a way that they do not like.  This is a very important part of respecting other people's bodies and a part of chastity that she should be ready to learn at 5 years old.  A kiss should always be an act of love, not something that is forced on another person.  Teaching her how to offer a kiss respectfully (being willing to take "no" as an answer) and requiring her to respect your boundaries will give her some great tools to help herunderstand her own boundaries and know when somebody is not respecting them, and your example of standing up for yourself will help her to have the strength and the confidence to stand up for herself when the time comes.

post #226 of 293

i have been following but haven't posted in a while.

I hope everyone is doing well...

my kids kiss me on the lips, always have (my oldest is 9) and actually I still kiss my dad on the lips on ocassion. It is not the same as when I kiss dh. It is very quick and non sexual. I agree with the boundaries I never feel forced into it with my children and don't believe they do either. Also, they don't kiss others outside of our family on the lips. I never set that limit as I haven't had to. We are very open with eachother. If it is something that makes you uncomfortable than it is ok to say I would rather you kiss me on the cheek. It is ok to set boundaries with our kids.

 

I wanted to let all of you know that around mothers day I started to cover during mass!!! It is something I have felt called to do (thanks for the encouragement from this thread) for several years now and I finally did it. I do not go to a tlm and my parish is not very concervative so I am the only one that covers. I do it in a very non-discrete way and feel very good about my decision to do so.

I did want to address earlier in this thread there was some conversation about traditional catholics verses catholics. We do not attend a tlm but have discussed that possibility. I do feel very strongly about the teachings of the church and try to follow those daily. This thread has helped me a lot to realize that catholocisim is more than my parish offers and I have been able to enhance my spirituality in other ways. I just felt like the earlier conversation was a little exclusive and might make some who don't (for whatever reason) attend a tlm even though they follow all of the teachings of the church.

 

I am 34 wks and the pg is progressing well. I am finally starting to get excited about this lo. It has been so hard to not live in fear since we lost emeric last year.

I hope everyone is doing well.

 

post #227 of 293

It's good to hear from you, Nicole!  I've been praying that everything is going well with the baby and with your husband.  We do not attend a TLM either, and in fact, our parish is quite liberal with a decent number of Catholics who seek to follow all of the Church's teachings.  I pray that we can be a support to our new clergy who are working hard to make some changes, especially coinciding with the beginning of the use of the new translation of the Mass.  I think many people on this forum would be horrified to see where I go to Mass, but if all the people who follow the Church leave, who will be left?  I also appreciate the other Catholic mamas on this forum who are doing their best to walk the walk, and I'm glad to have a place to sort out my thoughts sometimes, knowing that I will be treated with respect and receive advice that is firmly grounded in obedience to the Magisterium.

post #228 of 293

Just had to share that I made it to Mass yesterday by myself, and had a chance to reflect about how I model womanhood to my DD. The Gospel and homily on confession really hit home. Father told of an acquaintance he had in Rome who was an exorcist. Apparently this exorcist credited weekly confession with that fact that he was never called out by demons during the ritual. The demons couldn't embarrass or shame him because he had confessed his sins and therefore the demon didn't even KNOW about them -- they were gone! Not just forgiven, but gone. This was very powerful to me, and not a way I had ever heard the sacrament explained to me before. It was also amazing to look around at all the young people (this was the Sunday evening Mass at the campus center) who heard this message. There was no snickering or anything! I find this so amazing since I'm so used to people treating any religion, let alone mention of demons and exorcism with snide contempt.

 

It just made me hopeful, and helped confirm that this is what I pray for for my kids. Sure, they can question and doubt, and probably will. But I would like to spare them the mocking self-loathing that has colored (and continues to threaten) my faith my entire life.

 

Prayers for you all, sisters!

post #229 of 293

Hi Everyone, its been a long time since I have followed this thread, since before I moved.

 

My MIL is terminally ill, with a rare form of cancer, and she has been given days to weeks to live.  DH is trying to help her right now, but is really hindered by the rest of the family.  There are a lot of anger issues, starting long before this.

 

So I ask for your prayers, to keep my husband safe, to ease MIL's passing and to comfort the family. 

 

Thank you.

 

 

post #230 of 293

Praying, Ofwait!

post #231 of 293

ok ladies I have a question for you.

Dh and I are trying to come up with names. He has a name he really loves and I like it enough but then the baby would not have a saints name. I would like her to have one so here is my question.

Dh loves the name Arya (pronounced are-ee-uh) I found the saint name Aurea. Based on websites I think it is pronounced ow-ree-uh. Do you thin we could get away with spelling it aurea but pronouncing it are-ee-uh? Does that change the whole purpose of the naming her after a saint in the first place?

Just an idea, I would love some imput.

 

post #232 of 293

I think you're taking a big risk with constant mispronounciation.  I see that name and think "OR ree uh".

 

Why not use a saint's name for the middle name?

post #233 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger View Post

I think you're taking a big risk with constant mispronounciation.  I see that name and think "OR ree uh".

 

Why not use a saint's name for the middle name?


I think that's a good idea.
post #234 of 293

Thats a very pretty name, and I think that you could always have a saints name for the middle name.   Misspronunciation is always going to be a problem unless you have a super simple name.  One of my daughters is Isabel.... the number of people who insist on calling here Isabella or Bella, dispite both my and now her correction is astounding.

post #235 of 293

Hi Ladies!

I had subbed to one of these threads, but somehow lost track.  Twins'll do that to you.  Congratulations to Imprint on their twins, and the other expecting Mommies.  My prayers are offered for those who need them.

 

countryangels, I live in the GB diocese but not close to the TLM.  It is my experience within this diocese that you will find the whole gamut from faithful to liberal priests.  We have 24 seminarians in our entire diocese.  This seems like a pitiful few, but I don't know how it compares to the rest of the country.  We have had three different Bishops since my conversion 7 years ago.  I believe our current Bishop may be the most conservative of his immediate predecessors.  Because we have such a high percentage of Catholics in this area (anywhere from 30-60% of the population is Catholic), we have a LOT of cultural Catholicism.  We have one parish (NO) in my town and are currently being served by a liberal priest.  I am the only parishioner who receives on the tongue.  We usually travel into GB to participate in Reconciliation because my parish only offers it twice a month and often those times are actually cancelled on the day due to scheduling issues.  It's been very difficult for me as a convert.  I've struggled to find any sort of community and we are preparing to move into the city within a year or two.  I'm excited to finally be able to be involved in an active parish.  It would also be nice to assist at a TLM, but I don't know if I am prepared to choose that as our primary parish.  It is totally unfamiliar to me.  There is a large homeschooling association in GB, but I do not know if there is a Catholic homeschooling group.  Appleton boasts an independent birth center.  The midwives there also do home birth.  Appleton and the Fox Valley areas definitely have a larger "crunchy" community than GB, but there is also a holistic moms network in GB.  

 

It was really interesting to read some of the discussion on head covering early in the thread.  I have had an urge to head cover, but I did it once and felt so conspicuous.  Maybe when we transition to a new parish.  It's really difficult to be so out of the norm.  We are by far and away the largest family in the parish school.  A huge percentage are divorced and/or remarried.  I feel like the last thing I want to do is call more attention to myself.  I do not feel wholly welcome in my parish as it is.  I really, really can't wait to move.

post #236 of 293

Nicole, I also see no problem with naming your child after a saint and using a different spelling and/or pronunciation.  This is actually pretty common practice as names are transferred between cultures.  Personally, I am named after a male saint with a feminized version of his name.  My middle name is also a modification of a saint's name, and my daughter's middle name is the Irish translation of the name of an Italian saint.

post #237 of 293

Hi Mamas,

 

I don't think I have posted to this thread before, but here is my background: Cradle Catholic who fell away in my teens, reverted on Divine Mercy Sunday 2010, daughter baptised 8/1/10, marriage convalidated 3/16/11, and my husband is currently attending RCIA classes!

 

I just found out I'm expecting again. We were using NFP (sympto-thermal) to avoid, and the cycle I conceived we had relations 6 days before I ovulated. I still got pregnant. I don't know if DH has super-sperm or what, but it was totally a surprise. We are not upset by any means, but I am on some meds that I didn't want to be on when I next got pregnant (anti-depressants). And I'm still about 15 lbs above pre-pregnancy weight from DD. It's not ideal, but I feel that God wants this baby to be here.

 

Has anyone only used phase three to avoid? Has anyone used Creighton or any other methods? DH is totally unsure about more than two kids, and has made jokes about getting the big V...I don't think he will, but it still scares me and I'd like to be more certain next time we are avoiding that NFP "works". What charting methods have you had success with for avoiding?

post #238 of 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicewyf View Post

Hi Mamas,

 

I don't think I have posted to this thread before, but here is my background: Cradle Catholic who fell away in my teens, reverted on Divine Mercy Sunday 2010, daughter baptised 8/1/10, marriage convalidated 3/16/11, and my husband is currently attending RCIA classes!

 

I just found out I'm expecting again. We were using NFP (sympto-thermal) to avoid, and the cycle I conceived we had relations 6 days before I ovulated. I still got pregnant. I don't know if DH has super-sperm or what, but it was totally a surprise. We are not upset by any means, but I am on some meds that I didn't want to be on when I next got pregnant (anti-depressants). And I'm still about 15 lbs above pre-pregnancy weight from DD. It's not ideal, but I feel that God wants this baby to be here.

 

Has anyone only used phase three to avoid? Has anyone used Creighton or any other methods? DH is totally unsure about more than two kids, and has made jokes about getting the big V...I don't think he will, but it still scares me and I'd like to be more certain next time we are avoiding that NFP "works". What charting methods have you had success with for avoiding?


Congrats!  Welcome to the Church!  We conceived our twins on a cycle like yours.  I blame my dh for super sperm, too!  Dr. Fehring at Marquette has been doing extensive research on postpartum NFP, and dh and I are looking into it.  I have very difficult cycles and we have run the gamut from Creighton to Sympto-thermal.  Everything leads to too much abstinence which leads to taking risks and leads to babies. :)  At the moment we are on complete abstinence stemming from a (false?)positive pregnancy test/early loss a few weeks ago.  We're not ready for more babies with the twins so young yet, but I'm also not certain I have the mental faculties to learn a new method either right now.  I'm just suffering from extreme exhaustion and dh is being very patient as I evaluate our current mucus patch.  But I wanted to mention Marquette because the research is looking extremely good.

 

post #239 of 293

Yes, I've heard the Marquette method is best for breastfeeding, too. I haven't used it (yet), but I believe there is a device you buy for somewhere between $100-200 that will analyze your saliva for signs of fertility? So it is possibly a bit more reliable/better at limiting the times of abstinence. And yes, some people do wait until phase III if they want to be really careful. I think I saw a thread in the fertiity forum about that recently--questioning the first 5 days rule--if you want to look for that.

 

I'm a convert myself--welcome (back) to the Church! And how exciting that your husband is going through RCIA! It's smart that you are thinking about alternative methods of NFP, but it's early in your pregnancy, so hopefully it will be a long time before you need to be concerned again. And God could change your husband's heart before then!

post #240 of 293

Congratulations on your little miracle, alicewyf!  Babies are always miracles, but God must have big plans to create a baby with 6 day old sperm!

 

I haven't used it myself, but the Marquette method is quite simple to learn and seems to be quite effective while breastfeeding.  It can reduce the amount of abstinence needed, especially during breastfeeding amenorrhea.  It involves using the Clear Blue Fertility Monitor that requires regular urine samples.  Before your first period, it requires a urine test every other day.  The monitor itself is reusable and will keep track of your data.  The urine test strips are non-reusable and can get pretty spendy.  I would not recommend any of the saliva monitors available for charting to avoid.

 

DH and I personally use the sympto-thermal method, and we haven't had any surprise pregnancies, but we only chart to avoid when we've got pretty serious reasons to do so, so we tend to be very conservative.  Knowing that I have long cycles, we don't go past CD 6 until I have at least 6 cycles of history (and erase that history after having a new baby), and then we use the Doering rule +1 extra day to be conservative.  (If you have shorter cycles, I would look at the other clinical experience rules and consider adding an extra day to the Phase I rules.)  When determining phase III, if anything is confusing, we add an extra day.

 

Phase III only is very, very effective if you are careful about your data and watching for disturbances, but it can be a lot of abstinence if you have long or confusing cycles (such as you're likely to have while breastfeeding).  What we do when we chart to avoid for serious reasons involves a lot of abstinence, and really, the more sure you want to be about not getting pregnant, the more abstinence it will involve.  NFP to avoid pregnancy can be anything from a method of reducing your chances of getting pregnant by abstaining on the few days that you are most likely to get pregnant to giving a couple with very serious reasons to avoid pregnancy a few days that they can be almost 100% sure that they won't get pregnant so that they can still have a sexual relationship.  It's a balance.

 

You didn't mention whether or not your child was conceived on a dry day or if you were careful about following the "not in the morning" and "not on consecutive days" rules.  If so, you may need to be careful about apparent dry days to raise your effectiveness.  This could involve doing internal checks, taking a Creighton class to get a better understanding of how to check for and evaluate mucus, or choosing more conservative phase I rules (including complete abstinence if needed).  If you fudged on any of the standard phase I rules, all you may need for the effectiveness you desire would be to be more careful about following all the rules.

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