Traditional Catholic Moms Spring/Summer 2011 - Page 15

[AnkaJones]

That's a good way to think of it.  I kind of lost focus with the pamphlet handed out at my parish last weekend.  It was really poorly put together, and kept characterizing people who were uncomfortable with the new translation were ignorant Americans who were "suspicious of people who know Latin."  I wish the Mass was in Latin!   Anyway, thanks for your help and prayers to get back on track.  I'm going to confession and to spend some time in front of the Blessed Sacrament today, which I think will help.  There is a beautiful Franciscan parish downtown with some wonderful confessors, and they have Adoration all day.

JMJ, I like your point about obedience.  I had a confessor when I lived on the other side of the country who used to remind me that God rewards obedience (in everything but sin), and it is one of the most beneficial forms of ascetisism. 

The other thing I'm thinking about doing is... there is a Latin Novo Ordo mass said once a month here.  I think I might go, because that way when I go and hear the new English, I'll have the Latin in the back of my mind.  It should also help me process what you have all said -- that this is really a translation and the new translation strengthens the connection with the single Mass said in the vernacular of many nations.  I guess with mass in the vernacular, it's easy to lose sight of the connection to a single "Mass".

Thanks for your help and prayers!

Anka

[happyblessedmama]

I don't really see it as an opening for debate... personally I like all of the new changes, as we used to attend a Latin Mass (extraordinary form) and I find the changes to be much closer to what was said there, and I like that.

However, my feelings are irrelevant... lol... I'm sorry you're having trouble with the changes. It seems like a lot of responses (mine included) are on autopilot at times and it's hard to change familiar things!

[Home4good]

Hello ladies,

I'm new here, too. I found this thread in an amazing way and am hoping that I don't lose my place. I think that I can bookmark this and still keep track of it. Maybe the daily digest will help me here.

I've been reading through this thread and being new here don't know what AP means. We used what we understood of ecological breastfeeding, homeopathy, homebirth for most of ours, and even homeschool. I'm a bit past nursing now, though, since "baby" is 7 and I am 51, but I really wanted to second mylilmonkeys' encouragement with some advice that my own mother gave me early in my marriage:

Originally Posted by mylilmonkeys 

JennP - I think having three was probably the most stressful for me.  If your kids are closely spaced (mine are about every 2 years, more or less), then you are still doing so much for each of your children and they can't do much for themselves.  But, it won't be long before that oldest child will be big enough to start taking on little tasks on a regular basis.  I really encourage you to train your children to do household chores up to their capability.  

Having 3 and 4 was the most stressful for me, too, especially since #3 didn't walk or talk basically till #4 did. Mom had said that "the marginal increase in work quits after the fourth child" - AND she had had 5 under 5! She wound up with 8 under 11. We had 8 under 15. She was so right! As a matter of fact raising all eight (the oldest is 22) has been much easier than when we only had 2 (for about 8 years).

Do take advantage of encouraging the children's natural desire to help as much as you can. I can really identify with my Mom's words on so many days, "Oh! I could do this myself so much faster..." But not really when you realize how much help those older children are over time, we should always keep the future in mind. I was the oldest in my family, so I can say from my brothers and sisters' experience and the experience of my own children that the younger ones actually wind up learning to do more at a younger age than the older children, but frequently it's the older children who helped the younger children. I can remember thinking of my younger brother when I was in college, "Hey, I couldn't do that at his age!"

Our younger children are playing more music and creating more crafts than my older children had at their ages, so I really think that things even out over time. If I'd only had the two children we might never have done as much as we have together as a family, especially music since I did not learn to read music. We'd have been way likely to be out following other pursuits not home and cozy with them and the new arrivals. We all treasure these last 20 years and marvel that it really does not seem "hard" like some would think. Now we have one playing oboe in a Orchestra and another playing flute with several concerts. They and several others have learned to play many instruments: piano, penny whistle, recorder, violin....

We were astonished to be married over 8 years, traditional Catholic and only 2 children! I can really identify with several scenarios, including the moment when our first boy showed up as #3 and people said, "Finally got your boy, eh?" and with the moment when we had our fifth child and no longer looked so mainstream.

We had thought about the NFP bit before we got married, and had taken the course and learned the charting. The main thing I benefited from was the due date surety; but I am so glad that we did not pursue NFP. We never had any really grave situations. Yes, we had a major job loss, but we were already expecting #4... There's a great freedom in depending on God's providence.

God's been good to us since we are a very happy family, and I know that it's because we're faithful to going to Mass and saying our daily Rosary. 

Another piece of encouraging news my mother shared was that after each child, she and Dad were always in a better position money wise, whether it was money or a better job, etc. We live that same life and hope that this news is an encouragement to you, too.

I'm glad I found this thread, but "gotta go" now. We have a flute choir tonight.

:-)

Mary

[mylilmonkeys]

I'm glad you chimed in, Mary!  

[JMJ]

Yes, thank you for sharing your experience, Mary.  It is really helpful for those of us just starting to build our (potentially large) families to hear from those who are further along.  AP is an abbreviation for attachment parenthood.  It encompasses things such as breastfeeding, cosleeping, baby wearing, gentle discipline, etc.

I have another kids in Mass question.  My 2.5 year old has been making amazing strides in being able to pay attention and participate in Mass.  We are now asking her to use the same posture as the adults (or she can sit on a lap or be carried), and she is getting most of the responses really well.  I do think she developed these skills at an extraordinarily early age, but she needs to channel her energy somewhere, and she has done quite well cooperating with us directing it toward participation in Mass.  However, she is very easily distracted, and most people at my parish don't realize that she can participate, but not if they're making faces at her and playing games with her when they sit behind her.  When they do, I have a harder time being strict with her about facing forward, and it's almost impossible for me to get her to participate in the responses that I know she knows.  I kinda feel like it's not really her fault that some adult is purposely leading her astray, and she's 2 and doesn't have the self-control to resist the temptation.  Yesterday, I had somebody sitting behind me making faces, playing peek-a-boo, etc, throughout the whole homily, and I wasn't able to get her to regain her own self-control for the rest of Mass.  (The time change putting Mass closer to nap time didn't help either, so it wasn't just that.)  How do you other mamas deal with adults setting a poor example for your children in Mass?

[mt_gooseberry]

Ironically, JMJ, I was just getting on here to despair of my 21mo DD ever sitting nicely and participating in the Mass, so I'm afraid I will be absolutely no help.  Between DD and 2mo DS, I don't get much out of Mass right now, and I'm so worried about how my kids are disrupting everyone else's experience.  I'm tempted to regress to sitting in the last pew in hopes that we would at least be less disruptive.  :(  Further, I think people tend to disapprove when I nurse during the service.  I'm really having to force myself to attend Mass right now.  :(

The other thing I wanted to get some input on is family planning.  I have always wanted a large family (8 would be my ideal).  DH said he would also love to have a lot of kids--IF we were financially stable.  The thing is, we will never be financially stable unless I become a career mom.  DH is an immigrant with a set of skills that limits his employment options to agricultural work (although he has a Bachelor's in accounting from Mexico, that degree is totally unapplicable here).  If I am going to stay home and care for my own children, we will always be very low income.  If I have all the children I want, I will have to put them in daycare for up to 9+ hours a day, which, IMHO, kind of negates the reason for having a large family.  So what to do?  Care for my own children and spend the rest of my life avoiding pregnancy like the plague and always yearning for more, or have more children but work so much that I miss out on them (and they miss their mother's care)?  I'm a teacher, and I know from my subbing experience that I will not be able to continue breastfeeding or even pumping (you just don't get an opportunity with a teacher's schedule to pump).  Do I really want to have more children just to have them formula-fed and raised in daycare?  Do I really want to avoid my husband's embrace for fear of another child that we cannot afford for the next 20 years?  I'm so conflicted!

[PatienceAndLove]

gooseberry-

Is it possible for your DH to go to a US school and earn his US accounting degree?  He may be able to CLEP (http://clep.collegeboard.org/) many of the classes, and if the college is willing- take exams to test out of actual classes.  This would allow him to earn the US degree cheaper and easier.

[PatienceAndLove]

Originally Posted by JMJ 

Yes, thank you for sharing your experience, Mary.  It is really helpful for those of us just starting to build our (potentially large) families to hear from those who are further along.  AP is an abbreviation for attachment parenthood.  It encompasses things such as breastfeeding, cosleeping, baby wearing, gentle discipline, etc.

I have another kids in Mass question.  My 2.5 year old has been making amazing strides in being able to pay attention and participate in Mass.  We are now asking her to use the same posture as the adults (or she can sit on a lap or be carried), and she is getting most of the responses really well.  I do think she developed these skills at an extraordinarily early age, but she needs to channel her energy somewhere, and she has done quite well cooperating with us directing it toward participation in Mass.  However, she is very easily distracted, and most people at my parish don't realize that she can participate, but not if they're making faces at her and playing games with her when they sit behind her.  When they do, I have a harder time being strict with her about facing forward, and it's almost impossible for me to get her to participate in the responses that I know she knows.  I kinda feel like it's not really her fault that some adult is purposely leading her astray, and she's 2 and doesn't have the self-control to resist the temptation.  Yesterday, I had somebody sitting behind me making faces, playing peek-a-boo, etc, throughout the whole homily, and I wasn't able to get her to regain her own self-control for the rest of Mass.  (The time change putting Mass closer to nap time didn't help either, so it wasn't just that.)  How do you other mamas deal with adults setting a poor example for your children in Mass?

I STILL have this problem with the people behind me and DD- and she's 7!!

If I am not all over making sure she is facing forward, I have people completely undermining me.  *sigh* it is very frustrating!

When DD was smaller, I had her sit in my lap, that way I knew she wasn't looking behind at the people behind us.  If she insisted on sitting on the pew, I put my arm around her and used that to keep her facing forward.

Several times, though, I have had to turn around and ask people to cease their activites, as they are distracting my child- and themselves- from the Holy Sacrifice.
 

[theboysmama]

mt_gooseberry- my kids are more like yours in mass. I struggle so hard with them. The older 2 are finally doing really really well. Ds1 is 9 1/2 and he has been serving regularly and this has helped him a lot. Ds2 is 7 1/2 and is trying really hard (but has sensory issues, adhd, and a few other issues that make it challenging), ds3 is almost 5 and some days are good and some are awful. Dd1 stays in the nursery for the most part if it is available as she is very very active.

We sit in the front row (usually bcs we get there just as mass is starting and it is available) and find that this really helps my kids to focus better bcs they can see what is going on. I usually just ask adults that are distracting them to please not and it works.

dh and I are not "financially stable" and have had 5 kiddos. We struggle with having more because of this issue. What I have learned is that if we follow the will of God he will provide for us. We have had to change how we view money, wants vs needs, etc. Also, I have come to appreciate the time that both dh and I spend with the kids and am grateful for that. We have also gone through periods of juggling schedules so that at least 1 parent is home with the kids (eliminating the need for day care).

Mary- Welcome!!! We just had our 5th and the transition has been amazingly easy!!! The easiest yet by far. People are amazed that I just had a baby bcs I look so rested, etc. Dh has got it down now and is extremely helpful and my older 2 will get up w/ the younger ones on the weekend (we don't even ask) and I am getting caught up on my sleep. I can imagine that adding anymore kids at this point wouldn't be as exhuasting as the first 3.

I have a question about baptism. I converted to catholocism about 9 yrs ago and find that although I know and understand a lot of things when someone asks me to explain I fall short. My best friend is Mormon and she had a friend whose friends infant died (the family was catholic) before she was baptised. She said the family was upset because there baby wouldn't be going to heaven... I told her that wasn't the case but was having difficulty explaining it. Can some of you ladies help me out?

[JMJ]

mt_gooseberry, my DD is 31 months, and it's amazing what a difference those past 10 months have made.  At 21 months, I couldn't have dreamed that DD would be handling things so well.  I'm sure that we'll go through some more ups and downs.  We do have good days and bad days, but it's neat to see DD starting to join in a lot of the time.  I'm really amazed that it's happening already, but DD really is an amazing kid.  I think it's really helped that she goes to Mass on Sundays and sometimes to daily Mass, Adoration almost every week, etc.  She knows that there's a time to run and play and a time to sit quietly, and her self-control to be able to do it is increasing.  I think we go in waves.  Things have gotten really difficult with her at Mass, and it seems like the times just after things get really bad (It was just about a month ago that she was spitting on the people in front of us every chance she got, and between DH and me, we spent almost the whole Mass outside the Sanctuary.), then she makes amazing strides toward her ability to pay attention and participate.  I'm sorry to hear things are so difficult right now, though.

P&L, it's good to know that I have many more years of this to prepare for.

Theboysmama, we believe that the Sacrament of Baptism IS necessary for salvation, but there are two things to consider when a child dies before Baptism.  First, the Church acknowledges a "Baptism of Desire," that if it a person intends to be baptized (for example going through RCIA) or if a child's parents intend to have them baptized, then God acknowledges this, though this is not an excuse to delay baptism.  Second, we do not know the depth of God's mercy, and we would never judge that a person is not going to be in heaven.  We always entrust them to God's mercy.

Actually, in that vein, I would love to hear some thoughts and get some prayers for something that I am struggling with a lot in this month of prayers for the dead.  DH and I track NFP very carefully.  We conceived our daughter and this baby that I am currently carrying, both on our first try to get pregnant.  There was only one other time that we TTCed.  Because of ecological breastfeeding, last December was my first ovulation since having DD.  The signs that I was fertile were all there, and we were charting carefully, though we weren't sure I would actually ovulate since I still hadn't had a PPAF yet.  We tried for that baby whole-heartedly, hoping that God would bless us with a child as soon as He was ready.  We got all the right days to catch that ovulation.  My luteal phase was 8 days, not long enough to sustain a pregnancy.  I took a pregnancy test on the day I started to bleed, the second day of Christmas, and I could see the line where a line was supposed to be, but not really any color.  3 days later, we just really wanted to know, and we got a blood HCG test, and the level was 2, at the high end of the range for someone who is not pregnant, but definitely too low for somebody to be pregnant.  It was exactly in the range where I would guess my HCG would be for an 8 day old baby who was miscarried 3 days before.

In my heart, I believe that I lost a child then.  DH is more practical and doesn't want to jump to conclusions, though he knows it's a possibility.  I'm just really struggling with how to mourn, how to pray.  My church has had Masses before for couples who have miscarried, but I don't know if I'm included.  We added the names of other family members who have died in the past year to our Church's book of remembrance, and I wish I could add our (possibly?) child, but I wouldn't know what to put for the entry.  If I had a miscarriage that I knew about, we would ask for the support of our clergy.  We would have Masses said for the child, we would probably name the child, and we would know how to pray.  It's just so much more difficult for me to not know.  It seems rediculous to pray for/to someone who may not even exist and terrible to ignore someone who might be there with such a close connection to me.  I go back and forth between thinking I'm crazy for even being concerned about it because there are so many children who die without anybody ever knowing they were there, and we did nothing wrong by seeking to get pregnant when we did, and then I mourn for all the children who never had anyone to love them and pray for them to get into heaven.  And yes, theboysmama, one of the things that hurts the most is that we never got a chance to baptize that little one, though it is a great comfort to us that we stayed up late the night before I started bleeding, having a discussion about Baptism.

I guess I'd just like to hear anyone who wants to share their thoughts on this and invite any and all of you to pray for (possibly?) my baby and all the other children who we can't know that they are there until we get to heaven, in this month of November.

[theboysmama]

JMJ- thank you! That is how I understand baptism as well but just wasn't able to explain it. This is perfect. Short and to the point. Thank you.

As far as morning/honoring the possiblity of a lost child, if you feel like you could have been pg then it is more than ok to do. A child is a child from the moment of conception not from the time you get a bfp.

Most likely this was a "chemical pregnancy" (although I hate the term) but since you don't know for sure maybe you could light a candle for all babies that died in utero before it was to early for their mamas to know. Have a mass said in this regard as well. This way you will not only be covering your possible lost child but many others as well.

[mylilmonkeys]

Originally Posted by theboysmama 

As far as morning/honoring the possiblity of a lost child, if you feel like you could have been pg then it is more than ok to do. A child is a child from the moment of conception not from the time you get a bfp.

Most likely this was a "chemical pregnancy" (although I hate the term) but since you don't know for sure maybe you could light a candle for all babies that died in utero before it was to early for their mamas to know. Have a mass said in this regard as well. This way you will not only be covering your possible lost child but many others as well.

I like the idea of saying an encompassing prayer like this!  I have had two similar experiences.  With my third pregnancy, I had many dreams that we were pregnant with twins.  I measured large and I bled every 4 weeks until I was 4 months along.  While we had a healthy term pregnancy, I believe that I may have lost a twin.  Indeed, when we did conceive twins, that pregnancy most reminded me of my third pregnancy.  Also, my third child is a lefty and was very large at term  (10 lb 14 oz, 23 in), which could be related to an extra large placenta originally supporting twins.  Sadly, I never got an US, and my home birth ended a transport and I never got to see the placenta or whether it might have shown indications of a lost twin.  This pregnancy was before my Catholic conversion.

More recently, a few months back I had intense symptoms of early pregnancy.  I have not had a pp period and had only dry days so I waited for a couple of weeks of symptoms and then tested. I got a very light positive, definitely not an evap line.  About 10 days later symptoms disappeared.  When I retested, it was negative.  I waited to miscarry and nothing...  A week or so later, I was having a spastic pain in my lower back on one side.  Nervous about a possible ectopic, I went to be examined and no one could find any signs of a conception anywhere.  Still have no idea what all that was about and I have still had no signs of fertility or period.  I think perhaps a bad test, but what of the symptoms?  So strange.  And it is very disconcerting when you don't know if you should mourn.  Even though the timing was very inconvenient, I had accepted that we would have a child a year after our twins and was happy and eager for his/her arrival into our family.  I did have to mourn the idea of him/her!

[mum4boys]

I started a new thread for us. http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1336970/the-traditional-catholic-fall-winter-2011-2012#post_16758592