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post #141 of 281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnysandiegan View Post

Ah, that makes more sense now. hug2.gif

 

 

Does one NEED to take probiotics along with clay?



most don't.  I'm suggesting that after you get up to a decent amount of clay then introducing the pbx will lead to more rapid and efficient healing-but it does appear the numbers need to be super high to even bother.

post #142 of 281

It sounds like this is a great milestone, except for the needing-to-find-a-new-comfort-drink aspect, so yay!  Not to dismiss the difficulty in changing routines... yeah, that's not very fun.

 

Earlier in the thread, you said that you thought that people with underlying issues like lyme and metals would likely not see the same lasting benefits from doing this.


I wanted to flesh that out a bit.  The things I can think of that seem possible if there's something big/ongoing that's messing with the gut:

 

-maybe really difficult tapering up with either the clay or the probiotics

-maybe not seeing significant/complete improvement, digestion-wise, even at high levels of clay and probiotics

-maybe not able to drop back to a more reasonable amount of probiotics without resumption of digestive issues

 

And, what's a reasonable range of clay that someone may want to continue taking long-term?  And I guess one other question... some clays seem to have a fair amount of iron.  Is that absorbed well?  It's one reason I've not suggested DH try our pascalite (not that his iron is high, just being a guy).

post #143 of 281
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanyalynn View Post

It sounds like this is a great milestone, except for the needing-to-find-a-new-comfort-drink aspect, so yay!  Not to dismiss the difficulty in changing routines... yeah, that's not very fun.

 

Earlier in the thread, you said that you thought that people with underlying issues like lyme and metals would likely not see the same lasting benefits from doing this.

yes and no. they'll see lasting benefits and their body should be stronger in general.  however if someone is in an acute lyme flare then I'm not suggesting this is the correct path.  So chronic disease should improve, it's just that there may need to be additional support while the healing occurs.  Does that make more sense.


I wanted to flesh that out a bit.  The things I can think of that seem possible if there's something big/ongoing that's messing with the gut:

 

-maybe really difficult tapering up with either the clay or the probiotics

yes, what you have going on will affect how fast you can go up.

-maybe not seeing significant/complete improvement, digestion-wise, even at high levels of clay and probiotics

possibly-we don't really know this at this point.

-maybe not able to drop back to a more reasonable amount of probiotics without resumption of digestive issues

I don't know.  In theory once you've recolonized you should be fine barring illness/intervention at which point you may need to recolonize again.

 

And, what's a reasonable range of clay that someone may want to continue taking long-term?  And I guess one other question... some clays seem to have a fair amount of iron.  Is that absorbed well?  It's one reason I've not suggested DH try our pascalite (not that his iron is high, just being a guy).

I'd say let's not exceed 4 T. a day.  That seems to be the "common" recommendation.  The idea is though that it's not long term.  It may be 6 months and it may be 2 years....but as healing happens and you've mobilized and excreted the junk, your tolerance for clay will decrease.  I can't imagine taking more than a T. long term.  Even that might be high.  It's going to amount to listening to your body.

 

The iron *could* be absorbed if there's a requirement in your body.  What has been shown with the few studies that have been done (and here I fall to ancestral/traditional wisdom) is that clay is homeostatic.  You don't create deficiences with clay.  It is inert unless there is a requirement for a specific nutrient at which point the cation exchange is initiated.  That said, I don't think I'd count on clay for nutrition (other than removal of toxins/parasites so that nutrition is increased.)  I'm not viewing it as a supplement.  I'm not convinced that the clay has as big a capacity for exchange as some think.  I suspect that it really is more like salts where it's priming the pump.  For me, I don't think I'm getting mag from clay.  I think that my body is better able to use what's present.  This is what it felt like when I was using salts.  But again, this is theory, not proof.  I'm still speculating.
 

 

post #144 of 281
Personally the clay is helping so much but I do feel weird skin sensations at the end of the day and then I take sarsparilla tincture (for the lyme) and the sensations go away. So this is where an extra something is needed for lyme but the tincture isn't what everyone else would need. If I didn't have lyme, I may just be fine with clay alone.
post #145 of 281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebirdmama1 View Post

Personally the clay is helping so much but I do feel weird skin sensations at the end of the day and then I take sarsparilla tincture (for the lyme) and the sensations go away. So this is where an extra something is needed for lyme but the tincture isn't what everyone else would need. If I didn't have lyme, I may just be fine with clay alone.


OT, but did you ever rule out erlichia, babesia & bartonella?  What kind of sensations?  Formication is generally not lyme specific....just curious. 

post #146 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panserbjorne View Post





OT, but did you ever rule out erlichia, babesia & bartonella?  What kind of sensations?  Formication is generally not lyme specific....just curious. 


English please, lol!
I use lyme word to cover all the extra bugs that could be in me that I don't know about. The sensations are tingly and itchy sometimes they drive me crazy. I feel like I am crawling with bugs sometimes. I would get them alot in the past and now I get them often after clay and I know it is time to up the clay tomorrow to the tablespoon dose. I have been on it for almost 2 weeks now. It is getting worse as if the clay is pulling or pushing something out.
post #147 of 281
Thread Starter 

lol!  formication=sensation of bugs crawling on you.  sorry.  dorky medical lingo.  lyme co-infections are generally more to blame for that kind of neurological involvement.  either way, nothing you're doing would change.  I was just curious if you had been tested.

post #148 of 281
Bluets had a bunch of links on how gut dysbiosis increases your need for mag, did you see those?

I'm curious, though, if you still need the mag, just in a different form, like transdermally? Since there's clay bowel tolerance and mag bowel tolerance, are they additive? Too much of the combo means you draw too much water in. Not that you are full up on mag? Ooh, if mag tolerance has to do with bile levels and bile has toxins, and clay is binding those toxins/bile, then now there's not as much bile to help absorb the mag? But what would that imply about bile for fat absorption? And cholesterol levels? Or is that why I'm seeing greasy poop as one of my going too fast symptoms and getting my weird low energy stuff yesterday? (the same low energy as right before Jonah was born that turned out to be too much biotin/not enough pantothenic acid meaning I couldn't make enough ATP. I'm thinking of the acetyl coA/cholesterol/cortisol connection). Actually I think I'm just way over thinking, but its fun smile.gif

I wish we could just have a little atomic camera to watch what's going on in there!
post #149 of 281


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panserbjorne View Post


 

I'd say let's not exceed 4 T. a day.  That seems to be the "common" recommendation.  The idea is though that it's not long term.  It may be 6 months and it may be 2 years....but as healing happens and you've mobilized and excreted the junk, your tolerance for clay will decrease.  I can't imagine taking more than a T. long term.  Even that might be high.  It's going to amount to listening to your body.

 

The iron *could* be absorbed if there's a requirement in your body.  What has been shown with the few studies that have been done (and here I fall to ancestral/traditional wisdom) is that clay is homeostatic.  You don't create deficiences with clay.  It is inert unless there is a requirement for a specific nutrient at which point the cation exchange is initiated.  That said, I don't think I'd count on clay for nutrition (other than removal of toxins/parasites so that nutrition is increased.)  I'm not viewing it as a supplement.  I'm not convinced that the clay has as big a capacity for exchange as some think.  I suspect that it really is more like salts where it's priming the pump.  For me, I don't think I'm getting mag from clay.  I think that my body is better able to use what's present.  This is what it felt like when I was using salts.  But again, this is theory, not proof.  I'm still speculating.
 

 

It won't quote the stuff above!

 

Anyway... I think that makes sense.  Though... at least for my kids, it seems like a lot of stuff easily moves stuff around (assuming metals), and I'd think that could be the thing to throw the gut back out of whack.  Though I don't think I've ever had either kid's gut in really good shape, so the tenuous good shape we used to have probably wasn't very resilient. 

 

I am experimenting on myself for a while longer before trying to get this into the kids.  Wondering if it may be really helpful for DD, I can list 80-zillion things that affect her stomach aches, but clearly not enough because they are still non-zero.  Going to email you about this..
 

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebirdmama1 View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by Panserbjorne View Post





OT, but did you ever rule out erlichia, babesia & bartonella?  What kind of sensations?  Formication is generally not lyme specific....just curious. 




English please, lol!
 


Lol, I was wondering what that answer meant. 

 

post #150 of 281
Tanya, are you noticing anything (good or bad) in yourself yet? Aren't you up to a decent dose now?
post #151 of 281
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theloose View Post

Bluets had a bunch of links on how gut dysbiosis increases your need for mag, did you see those?

I'm curious, though, if you still need the mag, just in a different form, like transdermally? Since there's clay bowel tolerance and mag bowel tolerance, are they additive? Too much of the combo means you draw too much water in. Not that you are full up on mag? Ooh, if mag tolerance has to do with bile levels and bile has toxins, and clay is binding those toxins/bile, then now there's not as much bile to help absorb the mag? But what would that imply about bile for fat absorption? And cholesterol levels? Or is that why I'm seeing greasy poop as one of my going too fast symptoms and getting my weird low energy stuff yesterday? (the same low energy as right before Jonah was born that turned out to be too much biotin/not enough pantothenic acid meaning I couldn't make enough ATP. I'm thinking of the acetyl coA/cholesterol/cortisol connection). Actually I think I'm just way over thinking, but its fun smile.gif

I wish we could just have a little atomic camera to watch what's going on in there!


in theory clay stimulates the gall bladder to release more bile.  I would love a camera.

 

post #152 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theloose View Post

Tanya, are you noticing anything (good or bad) in yourself yet? Aren't you up to a decent dose now?


 

I ramped up pretty quickly, 1 tsp one night, next day 1 tsp AM and another 1 tsp PM, then I think the next day was 2 tsp AM and 2 tsp PM and I've stayed steady there for a few days. 

 

I have enough fluctuations in my energy level that I'm not ready to say that's a factor in my better motivation/energy of the last 2 days (it's always confounded by variations in amount of sleep).  My poop is not loose anymore (it was variable but often too loose, I'm guessing yeasty), it seems closer to normal, maybe a bit firm--not right, but distinctly better.  I've felt like I really should be taking mag more regularly for a while, so I can't tell if this is actually increasing my need (my jaw has been feeling tight/achy, I used to grind my teeth and this is a similar feeling), or if this is part of the general trend I already had going. 

 

I'm going to stay at this amount of clay for a bit more, see how things change or don't, before deciding whether to go higher.  Though at a practical level--I only have 1 pound of pascalite, so I need to make a plan to procure more.  I'm guessing the basic green desert clay from greenclays.com will be fine for me. 

post #153 of 281

Would you try the clay regimine while nursing?

 

My gut and both DDs guts(3 months and 3 years) are out of whack.  I wonder if we caught a bug that messed us up.  We are all sooooo gassy.

post #154 of 281
I am nursing a 20 month old and am taking the clay everyday, but we are taking it slow.
post #155 of 281

I trashed my gut flora completely on the weekend.  I dunno how either... started craving butter (deficient in butyric acid, I suspect in hindsight)... then *bam* on sunday, I started having cramping and then gut transit time that was ... rapid.  in it goes, out it comes.  2 doses of clay didn't help (as it normally does).  ACV didn't help.  sauerkraut juice didn't help.  the only thing keeping me out of the bathroom right now is activated charcoal (yuck).  and i've also had this off-and-on headache (so not normal but obviously related).  30C pulsatilla had no effect.  200C pulsatilla helped for the cramping but i don't want to repeat.  Ars album 30C helped a little but it doesn't seem appropriate now to repeat...  doing a whole bunch of cell salts, ACV in my water bottle at work.  applesauce for meals.  (and i'm up in weight - how is that?!)  (all this makes day-job "emergencies" seem so... well, not emergencies)

 

and i know some minerals are way off -- i've got an infusion blend with oatstraw, nettles, horsetail and a few other things and all of a sudden, it is tasting very metallic.

 

so......

 

i've been waffling between VSL#3 and clay and had been leaning towards clay before this mess happened.  but now... well, i'm back to the same ol' indecision.  repopulate gut flora?  or clean out the junk that is now in there?

 

post #156 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panserbjorne View Post


 


in theory clay stimulates the gall bladder to release more bile.  I would love a camera.

 



so you'd need one of these: http://www.gihealth.com/html/test/given.html

 

and here's the product page: http://www.givenimaging.com/en-us/HealthCareProfessionals/Pages/CapsuleEndoscopy.aspx

 

 

post #157 of 281

To recap, someone who doesn't *know* exactly what is going on in her body like so many of you seem to could just start taking a small amount of clay and see what happens?

 

I had quite a few amalgams in my mouth until Mar 2005 (5 or 7?). They were removed and replaced with composites in two visits (left side, right side). The main motivation was because they were showing signs of aging (cracks, sensitivities, etc). I didn't know anything about "proper protocol", but I was seeing an energy chiropractor at the time and he gave me a bottle of chelating liquid with instructions for before/after each dental visit and I saw him more frequently during that timeframe. I think there were other things we did, too, but I do not recall the details at the moment.

 

I don't know anything about lyme disease other than the name.

 

I've been told by several natural healer-types (various technical professions) that my body is full of toxins. Are we all to a certain degree? At least those living in average modern society?

 

How does magnesium play into all this? What does that do for you?

 

I read a magnesium book a few years ago (The Miracle of Magnesium or is it called The Magnesium Miracle?) and it didn't seem to fit for me, but I noticed a few of issues it might help in my older relatives and certain friends. Around that same time I began to wonder if my very healthy, but very slender DD (age 9 now) might not be utilizing all the food she eats. Slightly different topic than toxins, but wondering if clay would help her, too. She will be ten in two weeks and she weighs 58 pounds and is 4'6". (She may even be a little taller now.) She eats every two hours while awake on average (5-6 times a day) and gets REALLY cranky and has emotional outbursts, etc when she doesn't get plenty of food. She eats pretty healthy (far healthier than her peers) and drinks plenty of water daily. Everyone has always said, "She's blessed with a high metabolism," and I have left it at that. However, my mom instincts say it is deeper than that. Her body type is just like my dad's side of the family, though, so sometimes I wonder if my intuition is off...

post #158 of 281
OK... just a warning about chaga that I recommended a page back- great stuff, but after many trials, we (dh and I) have decided that is has the same effect as Viagra. My dh has had so much energy lately drinking it, but for the last week he can't even sleep if you know what I mean. So PB, if you are looking for that relaxing night beverage, DO NOT DRINK CHAGA! (and especially don't give it to your man)
post #159 of 281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebirdmama1 View Post

OK... just a warning about chaga that I recommended a page back- great stuff, but after many trials, we (dh and I) have decided that is has the same effect as Viagra. My dh has had so much energy lately drinking it, but for the last week he can't even sleep if you know what I mean. So PB, if you are looking for that relaxing night beverage, DO NOT DRINK CHAGA! (and especially don't give it to your man)


with that warning he won't let me near it!   LOL!  But I might be slipping it to him!

post #160 of 281

I was at the health food store today and I purchased the only edible clay they carry. It is in a liquid form. I mixed 1/4 teaspoon in a small glass of orange juice and drank it all down. Now, I am drinking a big glass of water more slowly. How does the liquid form compare to the dry form in terms of dosing? How slowly should I ramp up the quantity of clay?

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