working on some new thoughts - Page 2

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by deditus 

I have decided that I am worth the investment.

Boy, are you!

Dd, age 4.5, gluten, dairy, soy, egg, apple, coconut intolerant, main intolerance symptoms rash, poor feeding/growth, severe constipation, spd:

As of right now and for most of the last year- she takes Kirkman's bifidus, 1/day - the only thing that has helped and not caused wicked die-off such that she couldn't poop

Tried in the past, from most recent:

2010: MegaFoods MegaFlora, CP1, Pharmax Intensive, Pharmax Mindlinx, Klaire Infant Powder

2009: Klaire Infant Powder, CP1, Biogaia, Culturelle, Pharmax High Potency

2008: Natren Bifidus, PB8, UAS DDS Plus

2007: Natren Bifidus, Primadophilus something

The highest I have gone with dd would be the full dose of Kirkman bifidus - 15 billion cfus, and Klaire Labs infant powder full dose - 10 billion. These are the only 2 she has tolerated - or should I say these are the only 2 I could tolerate her taking. I saw no effect from anything pre-Klaire Labs which I started giving her in the spring of 2009 I think. The main problem has been dealing with die-off, she gets extremely constipated even with mag & SA, and gets a full body rash and then of course doesn't want to eat or sleep.

I have worked with a LOT of people who couldn't tolerate probiotics.  I have found ways around it for most of them, but then I started thinking that I was missing something obvious.  Unfortunately, this is not something that's taught anywhere.  So, I've been piecing things together and talking to various companies that run clinical trials on their products and trying to figure it out.  I don't think there's a complex answer.  I tend to always try and look to the earth for answers.  Something did click one day when I was working on a case with someone trying desperately to convince them that it the issue wasn't that what they were doing was incorrect, it was the quantity.  That got me thinking even more. 

I've also been taking note for some time of pH levels in people that are really sensitive.  This along with symptoms of bowel disruption have started making me question things that ARE taught and look for more answers.  The standard acid/alkaline balance stuff wasn't cutting it as I'd seen it disproven any number of times.

SO I started playing with probiotic strains and bowel nosodes in people who knew and were happy to experiment with me.  However the necessary amounts are high.  320 billion cfu's are a lot!  However, what I'm doing is shedding a lot of the other supplements in favor of high dose probiotics, the correct nosodes and clay (which is the best neutral adsorptive and absorptive medium I can come up with that is perfectly safe, fine in large quantities, widely available, cheap and fine for nursing/pregnant women.)

I figured I'd ask here and find what people had done.  The stumbling block seems to be die off which most people don't know how to handle (practitioners either.)  I have a few tricks, but again...there's an easier way.  I know there is.  This is something people should be able to do on their own. 

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by Theloose 

350,000 cfu... That's not all that much. Are you talking just a slow ramp up? Or...?

Good thing I just today put in an order for more clay!

350 billion cfu's.  lol.  not 350,000.  that makes a difference!

[FireWithin]

yes - I think that is a good suggestion. . . got to get some clay first

argh  just gave baby girl some probiotics - HLC neonate from pharmax -- there is milk lactose in it.  well I'll see how she does now that she is no longer reacting to seeds. 

[deditus]

Originally Posted by Panserbjorne 

I have worked with a LOT of people who couldn't tolerate probiotics.  I have found ways around it for most of them, but then I started thinking that I was missing something obvious.  Unfortunately, this is not something that's taught anywhere.  So, I've been piecing things together and talking to various companies that run clinical trials on their products and trying to figure it out.  I don't think there's a complex answer.  I tend to always try and look to the earth for answers.  Something did click one day when I was working on a case with someone trying desperately to convince them that it the issue wasn't that what they were doing was incorrect, it was the quantity.  That got me thinking even more. 

I've also been taking note for some time of pH levels in people that are really sensitive.  This along with symptoms of bowel disruption have started making me question things that ARE taught and look for more answers.  The standard acid/alkaline balance stuff wasn't cutting it as I'd seen it disproven any number of times.

SO I started playing with probiotic strains and bowel nosodes in people who knew and were happy to experiment with me.  However the necessary amounts are high.  320 billion cfu's are a lot!  However, what I'm doing is shedding a lot of the other supplements in favor of high dose probiotics, the correct nosodes and clay (which is the best neutral adsorptive and absorptive medium I can come up with that is perfectly safe, fine in large quantities, widely available, cheap and fine for nursing/pregnant women.)

I figured I'd ask here and find what people had done.  The stumbling block seems to be die off which most people don't know how to handle (practitioners either.)  I have a few tricks, but again...there's an easier way.  I know there is.  This is something people should be able to do on their own. 

It actually took me months, many months, to order the CP1 the first time (for myself, to help treat parasites). And I was SO scared to take it! It actually took me almost 2 years to finish the 2 bottles I ordered! But it helped so much for me, even at just 50 billion/day, and I have realized that it is a huge piece of the puzzle. I saw my nutrient needs go down DRASTICALLY when I was taking it, but only in hindsight did I realize that it was the probiotics that were helping so much. So I know dd needs it - big time. She is old enough now and more cooperative that I feel like I can push more. And every little thing has helped, but I can't be in this position of continuing to lose foods. I have said for a while that I am in a better place overall than dd because I have been able to push myself more because I know what the die-off means for me - if I am on the verge of a panic attack, I know I'm going too fast and I take some clay! Dd has been poor at communicating when she feels bad, probably because she has always felt bad! The trick is keeping her in a good spot because once she starts to feel bad then she refuses everything you try to do to help. Do I need to email you and work out a payment plan, lol!?!

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by deditus 

Do I need to email you and work out a payment plan, lol!?!

lady, it doesn't sound like you need me at all!

[FireWithin]

ok I have a question, and could use some opinions.

The probiotics I have, baby pharmax, contains lactose.  I gave baby girl some yesterday and I see a splotch on her face.  She was fussy last night, but also has a head cold.

I am trying to decide if I should continue with these great, powerful and already purchased probiotics, or find something else.

I have a brand new nephew who a great potential for allergies, and I could pass the probiotics on to him this weekend, so they wouldn't be going to waste.

Are there other baby probiotic brands that are lactose free and high quality?

I will try these for the next two days.

[FireWithin]

well baby girl doesn't seem too reactive today so I'm going to give more  tomorrow.

which clay product would you rec, Panser?

http://www.greenclays.com/clay-supplements.php

oh and Im interested in the bowel nosodes after we get our results back.

[Panserbjorne]

yup, that's a good clay!

[Theloose]

Does it matter which clay blend from that site? Or are any of the edible ones good?

What's a bowel nosode?

As for the die off... I've clearly got yeast issues (hello yeast remedy) AND bacterial ones (hello feeling better on abx). There have been a couple times that I've felt suddenly better, withOUT any die off or needing tons of clay - after the stomach flu/two day fast (I did have a little peppermint tea and plain white rice when I craved them) and after the mastitis/abx incident. And the times that I'm mobilizing stuff the worst are the yeast remedy and increasing pancreatin - our best guess on the pancreatin was that it was changing gut pH.

I wonder if, at least for me, most of the die off is coming from the yeast side rather than the bacterial side? Would there be a way to just target the bacteria and let the yeast slowly resolve itself on its own? Would a purposeful fast be beneficial, if you knew that the fat-burning toxins were a safer choice than the gut ones? Does the fever have to do with why I felt better? (I don't remember now if I had a fever with the flu...) how about inducing one with a sauna or something? (I seriously crave HEAT lately)

[Panserbjorne]

I'm sure that craving of heat is you trying to raise your body temp.  The people I've had the ability to see in person who report that same symptoms invariably have high cytokine levels, and no internal heat to manage them.

Each clay is unique, so you may find one that's "better" for you, but all edible clays will do a good job of mopping up toxins.

I would not deal with bacteria and allow yeast to normalize on it's own.  That's just prolonging things (IMO) and allowing the potential for more sensitivities.  However, talk to me.  Is there a reason you're thinking that? 

The changeability of the pH is indicative of overall gut health so I'd just start there and allow the clay to do it's work ONCE you've reached at least a T a day.  You in particular need that clay to prevent the alteration of the biochemistry.  If the junk is just ushered out there's no real increased work load for the body.  Other than waiting for the secIgA to respond....but most reactions you've shared here are lower.  I'm not saying that you're not circulating an interleukin response...but the bigger problems *seem to be* lower.

Bowel nosodes are a branch of homeopathy.  They're meant to innoculate the gut with correct bacteria, or rather help it rail against the bad stuff.  They're used quite a lot by people who understand gut function, pathology and flora (which is to say not many people.)  Problem is most people use them as remedies instead of as part of a gut healing program.

[Theloose]

How do you know if cytokines are high? It's odd, I've been *feeling* warmer lately, but I've always always craved heat and still do. I figured it was just all those years of morning water polo practice in outdoor pools and cold seasons Is it standard practice for a HOT shower to drop a fever temporarily?

Let's see, first I'm only barely keeping up with what you're talking about here, so I'm just throwing around ideas that seem halfway relevant. If I'm following right, you're saying that it's the bacteria in my gut that's throwing off the pH, and that's a big part of all the other stuff (reactions, intolerance to cell salts and die off, etc). And it's the pH being off that's allowing the yeast to thrive? And it feels to me like the die off is from killing the yeast more than about the bacteria. Addressing the yeast but not the bacteria is going way too fast and I can't handle it. (yesterday was a total of 1/2T clay, a bit more now in the last 24 hours.) If we did the bacteria first, then as it changed the pH, it would address the yeast on its own AND give my body a fighting chance of managing the die off - cause it's coming slower, and cause the gut pH issue is being addressed, and cause I'm not having to deal with a totally toxic gut on top of it all. Are you saying the clay will also change the pH, change the environment just by itself?

And where does yasko's b12 fit into all this? She wants people on high b12 before attempting to heal the gut, cause if the nerves that control the gut aren't happy, then the gut will just revert back to where it was before as soon as you slow the healing measures. FWIW, supping hydroxy b12 is what I think finally brought my dopamine levels up and swapped me to being lower in methyl groups rather than high, and it seems like round one of vit A (post flu) is what finally pushed my reactions from mostly moods to mostly GI.

What do you mean about waiting for secIgA to respond and the reactions being lower?

[Panserbjorne]

I'll come back to this, but I think doing 10,000 mcg of B 12 daily is a great crutch for many, many people.

cytokines can be assessed via blood testing and it's fairly expensive.  I'm not suggesting you do that.

a bacterial imbalance will throw off pH, and yeast qualifies as well.  NORMALIZING bacteria will restore pH.  And yes, that's affecting everything.  You can tell by what remedies do, how the body responds to them and the result what is going on-at least well enough to make a very educated guess if you know the trajectory of the remedy.

I wouldn't want you to go any faster until your clay intake is higher.

clay doesn't really change the pH in and of itself...it's allow you to change it faster with few side effects.  at least that's my belief.  It is possible that you could look at it and say it is changing the pH because it's removing the excess toxins, and that would be true...but it's not creating the toxic die off.  Are you following me?  It's not a correct way to think about it IMO.

secIgA should come up, preventing reactions directly into the bloodstream on ingestion when the bowel flora is correct.  Reactions aren't all through the gut.  However the gut, in a weird way, controls most of them.  When you feel hung over and crappy directly after eating a "bad" food the reaction wasn't because proteins leaked through the gut-it started higher up than that and is mediated in a different way.  It's complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Save the intestinal flora, save the world.  We can go around and around about it, but what all these reactive people have in common is bad gut flora.  Yes, it will manifest in, and affect different systems, different pathways etc. but the keystone is the intestinal flora which can be disrupted in a variety of ways (and in most cases was never intact to begin with.

I'm not saying I'm right.  I'm still playing, but it seems the deal is that instead of staying with potential fix, we go off and see what else is wrong and support that.  Instead perhaps we could be more aggressive about the initial fix.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by Panserbjorne 

I'll come back to this, but I think doing 10,000 mcg of B 12 daily is a great crutch for many, many people.

clay doesn't really change the pH in and of itself...it's allow you to change it faster with few side effects.  at least that's my belief.  It is possible that you could look at it and say it is changing the pH because it's removing the excess toxins, and that would be true...but it's not creating the toxic die off.  Are you following me?  It's not a correct way to think about it IMO.

I think it's Jason at Eyton's Earth?  who talks about clay drawing healing energy to wherever it's being applied.  So if it were focusing the body's healing on the gut, then it could be creating die off.  But I see what you're saying, too.

secIgA should come up, preventing reactions directly into the bloodstream on ingestion when the bowel flora is correct.  Reactions aren't all through the gut.  However the gut, in a weird way, controls most of them.  When you feel hung over and crappy directly after eating a "bad" food the reaction wasn't because proteins leaked through the gut-it started higher up than that and is mediated in a different way.  It's complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Save the intestinal flora, save the world.  We can go around and around about it, but what all these reactive people have in common is bad gut flora.  Yes, it will manifest in, and affect different systems, different pathways etc. but the keystone is the intestinal flora which can be disrupted in a variety of ways (and in most cases was never intact to begin with.

What effects secIgA?  What does it do, symptom-wise?

I'm not saying I'm right.  I'm still playing, but it seems the deal is that instead of staying with potential fix, we go off and see what else is wrong and support that.  Instead perhaps we could be more aggressive about the initial fix.

It's resonating with me.  I think a lot of the chasing after other stuff has been important, both for teaching me about how it all works, but also for patching up a bunch of weak spots so that I can handle the die off more reasonably.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by Theloose 

It's resonating with me.  I think a lot of the chasing after other stuff has been important, both for teaching me about how it all works, but also for patching up a bunch of weak spots so that I can handle the die off more reasonably.

I was definitely not talking about you when I was saying that!  I was talking about practitioners.  I agree the self discovery is also worth it...I'm more wondering why I don't ever ever ever hear about practitioners ramping up in the initial stages before moving on.  I've asked around and the answer is apparently that a multi layered approach is preferential.  Hmmm. 

Not entirely sure I'm understanding the question on sIgA.  You mean what would you see if it was low?  Could be many things, but chronic sinus/oral mucosa symptoms for sure.  Sometimes lung. 

[californiajenn]

2 packets (900 billion) of VSL#3 for me and my 10yo. Her eczema was gone in a week. As long as I keep up fermented foods for her, it mostly stays away now.

Edited by californiajenn - 4/18/11 at 6:52pm

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by Panserbjorne 

I was definitely not talking about you when I was saying that!  I was talking about practitioners.  I agree the self discovery is also worth it...I'm more wondering why I don't ever ever ever hear about practitioners ramping up in the initial stages before moving on.  I've asked around and the answer is apparently that a multi layered approach is preferential.  Hmmm. 

Not entirely sure I'm understanding the question on sIgA.  You mean what would you see if it was low?  Could be many things, but chronic sinus/oral mucosa symptoms for sure.  Sometimes lung. 

I mean, what would increase sIgA, and what signs would tell you that it's increasing?

And so many of us are our own practitioners here. (and some of us are wannabes ) When I've thought about pbx, and the logic of how to replace a gut ful of bugs, it seems like you'd need to basically drown out whats already there. You'd need to displace the current population, and do it for long enough that you replace the stuff living in the appendix, too. For people like me, it seems like using abx as a starting point might even be useful - clear the ground, then flood with good. But talk about gut healing and abx in the same sentence, and everyone who knows anything about it looks at me cross-eyed.

When you talk about nutrients, foods is usually preferable cause it's balanced and there's feedback (taste) so that you don't overdo it and create deficiencies where there weren't any. I bet it's a similar feeling with the multi-layered approach - it's scary to push hard on one thing, especially if there are other layers that are weak, and you don't have total confidence. it's easy to get caught up in the other layers and it seems hard to know which pbx are just the right strain(s) to give when there are supposed to be so many millions of different ones in there.

After doing enzymes for a while, the pbx seem much more super powerful for me. Maybe a magic trio of pancreatin, clay, pbx? But... If the pancreatin is so powerful, that implies that we're not making enough on our own, so would everything slide back to where it was as soon as you stop unless you up CCK somehow. And supping pancreatin just lowers CCK, doesn't it?

My head is spinning. Don't mind me. Keep thinking, I bet you'll figure it out soon!

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by californiajenn 

2 packets (900 billion) of VSL#3 for me and my 10yo. Her eczema was gone in a week. As long as I keep up fermented foods for her, it mostly stays away now.

thank you!  When you say two packets, was that per day?   How long did you stick to high doses?  Was there any discomfort in doing so?  Did you notice any other changes?

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by Theloose 





And so many of us are our own practitioners here. (and some of us are wannabes ) When I've thought about pbx, and the logic of how to replace a gut ful of bugs, it seems like you'd need to basically drown out whats already there. You'd need to displace the current population, and do it for long enough that you replace the stuff living in the appendix, too.

This was the thought for a long time and still is for most people.  This is where I'm veering.  I'm not sure we need to drown out what's there.  I don't think it's a quick process, but I'm wondering if our understanding about this is correct at all.  That's where my focus is right now.  I do know how the reactions are triggered, and where, and the accepted explanations of why, but things have to be in place for that to happen....that's where I'm looking.  Again, I have no idea if I'm right...but something is happening with the people who are experimenting that wasn't before and it's forward motion.  YOU were one of my reasons to start considering this, actually!  So I've only been playing for a few months and that's not enough time to tell much of anything.

 

For people like me, it seems like using abx as a starting point might even be useful - clear the ground, then flood with good. But talk about gut healing and abx in the same sentence, and everyone who knows anything about it looks at me cross-eyed.

it's a legitimate thought and many have done just that.  there are lots and lots of docs who put people on abx or antifungals to "clear" things..there's just not enough follow up because the studies that do indicate probiotics work use low doses for 2 weeks max.  You're not off base though.  The issue for me is that there are ramifications to using abx beyond gut flora decimation (which isn't fair...they don't kill everything.)

When you talk about nutrients, foods is usually preferable cause it's balanced and there's feedback (taste) so that you don't overdo it and create deficiencies where there weren't any. I bet it's a similar feeling with the multi-layered approach - it's scary to push hard on one thing, especially if there are other layers that are weak, and you don't have total confidence. it's easy to get caught up in the other layers and it seems hard to know which pbx are just the right strain(s) to give when there are supposed to be so many millions of different ones in there.

you're right again here, but there are some things that have NO side effects in terms of disrupting things on a physiological level where you wouldn't see it coming....so long as you had the tools to deal with it which I admit is part of the issue.  High dosing probiotics and telling people to do vitamin C or epsom salt soaks isn't enough.  Activated charcoal and clay would do the trick, but you'd have to know how to use them.  It IS easy to get caught in other layers-especially because that's what you're taught to do.  I'm not knocking anyone, just trying to figure this out.

After doing enzymes for a while, the pbx seem much more super powerful for me. Maybe a magic trio of pancreatin, clay, pbx? But... If the pancreatin is so powerful, that implies that we're not making enough on our own, so would everything slide back to where it was as soon as you stop unless you up CCK somehow. And supping pancreatin just lowers CCK, doesn't it?

For this I suspect it's just a timing thing.  As in using the enzyme allowed you to see changes faster while using a lower dose.  At least that's my first reaction.  Don't know if I'm right.  But if we gave 320 billion cfu's daily to bowel tolerance you'd be seeing something fairly quickly and if not it's a sign that it's not enough.  The gut, the chemistry in the gut, triggers so many other processes in direct and indirect ways.  It is hard to say, and because there's no studies to go on we only have theory.  Which, while a starting point is only good on paper.  So I'm playing mad scientist to see it in action.  Great results so far that are fairly predictable....but not a large enough sample size.

My head is spinning. Don't mind me. Keep thinking, I bet you'll figure it out soon!

we shall see.  we shall see.
 

[deditus]

Way back when, in The Power of Probiotics thread, Goodpapa said to give bifidus until stool normalizes to babies having issues. I never did, I was scared (I gave the amount on the bottle of PBX, 5 billion cfus, maybe?), but I bet it would have made a world of difference if I had.

[Panserbjorne]

you're not the only one.