working on some new thoughts - Page 14

[Thing1Thing2]

Ok, I got tired of procrastinating and just bought the $8.00 Great Plains Bentonite. I took a tablespoon before breakfast and another before lunch. 

The probiotics are causing symptoms such as sugar cravings, geographic tongue (which I usually get, but it's not *this* bad), and rashes.

I'm wondering if my symptoms are not so much about healing, but more about throwing my system off. There is a theory going around about candida being there to *help* protect the body.

I'm hoping the clay takes care of this, since I'm pregnant and don't want to be messing around with mercury - I haven't seen any change yet.

http://www.holistichelp.net/blog/mercury-poisoning-and-candida-overgrowth/

[Panserbjorne]

I believe it IS there to protect the body, what you are trying to address is the underlying cause.  much like flies around a trashcan there is a reason that yeast would grow out of control.  You need to clean the trashcan.  as long as food is rotting in it you will always attract flies.  A nice clean can will not be of any interest to them.

[mbravebird]

Originally Posted by Panserbjorne 

elsewhere we are speculating that probiotics isolated function differently than food based.  The results I'm seeing are with probiotics.  There have been a few that have said they didn't feel so much increasing kefir but the probiotics kicked their butts.  Pat (wuwei) said that it was perhaps that the kefir has more strains of lower potency so when you add them up it's very potent.  But if you use a high potency probiotics with only a few strains those strains can push more.  I find this to be a likely explanation.  HTH!

I have been thinking about this issue a lot recently, because my toddler recently had to take antibiotics, and got subsequent thrush, despite three-times-a-day probiotics. He also had a bacterial imbalance that persisted despite the probiotics. But I only really noticed the thrush and diarrhea after I scaled back to once-a-day probiotics and increased food-based probiotics (homemade dairy kefir and homemade kombucha, about a cup a day of each for a two year old).

I've always been a big believer that food-based probiotics are better, more potent, and survive and colonize better, based on info from healing crow and others -- but this experience did NOT go along with that theory. As soon as we cut down the bottled probiotics, we saw huge worsening of symptoms, despite the large amounts of homemade cultures. And according to the bacteria count from when Pat got her kefir and kombucha tested, we should have been at a much higher potency level than with the bottled probiotics. But it just didn't act that way. The thrush got way out of control. And this was with 24+ hour kefir and continuous brew kombucha, so extra high levels of the good stuff. I would really like to know more about this.

[gigismom]

Hi all!  haven't been on mdc is awhile and thought I'd check in here as I have seen some recent activity.  We are still SLOWLY increasing probiotics and clay for all of us (3 kids and me).  We are all making progress.  Ds is making more progress lately than ever before so I am greatly relieved at this.  I definitely find the clay to make the die off tolerable to non existent these days.  I increased ds's probiotic yesterday and forgot the clay completely today (we were busily distracted by holiday weekend home fixing up!).  He was fussy and I realized that I had forgotten the clay and kicked myself.  He would have had an easier day if I had remembered.  Oh well... tomorrow is another day.  I have to say that even me being able to be distracted enough to forget about his gut problems for awhile is very strong evidence that he is better.  He is up to 78 billion cells of probiotic, same as me.  DD1 is taking 52 billion cells and is having regular bms for the first time in her life (she's 11).  DD2 is taking 26 billion cells because when I increased hers she became constantly incontent of stool.  This did not go away after a few days so I figured it was something different than die off.  She has always had very regular bms.  Since going back to 25 billion cells she is back to being continent again and very regular.  Don't know why this could be but clearly 26 billion was a better dose for her.  Anyway, I don't know how high we will go but I figure once we all find a spot where we are regular and feeling good we will stay there.  Coincidentally,  all the kids have had growth spurts lately and their appetites are awesome.  We are in a good place right now. 

jen

[Thing1Thing2]

Nicely put!

[gigismom]

Just wondering if any of you may have some input on something.   I had been feeling great (as described above) then I stupidly tried a non-alcoholic gluten containing malted drink.  I seemed fine with it for awhile  (had 1 to 2 per day for about 2 weeks or so).  Then I started have clear yeasty symptoms so I stopped the drink.  (ds also had some sensitivity reaction to it through my breast milk).  Now, about a week or almost 2 later, the yeasty symptoms are gone but my bowells are very sluggish and I have this very odd stomach distention especially late in the day.  My stomach sticks out really far (like a look pg) if I don't hold my abdominal muscles tight.  When I relax my abdominal muscles my abdomen is rounded and firm.  This has been going on for a few days.   I have no pain or excessive gas.   I don't think this is still related to the drink that I had been drinking.  What could this be?  I had been taking 78billion cells of the custom probiotics daily but had slipped a bit on the clay (maybe only 1x per day and sometimes skipping all together).  dh says I should stop everything and just let my body function on it's own.  He thinks these symptoms mean I over did it on the probiotics but he has no information to base this on.  I do have a feeling of fullness and heaviness that is not pleasant but not painful either.  any thoughts?  jen

[lastrid]

Perhaps you pushed your intestinal flora out of whack again and have a bunch of gas-inducing bacteria now?  I've been there and I know how it stinks.  A gluten exposure for me can put me slightly off kilter for a while.

How are you guys getting your children to drink the clay?  I've given my 14 month old a little bit here and there when I'm drinking it, but I have no idea how to approach my four year old with it because I'm fairly certain he'll be resistant and don't want to blow my chance.

[Panserbjorne]

Originally Posted by gigismom 

 I don't think this is still related to the drink that I had been drinking. 

hey there.  can you elaborate as to why you don't think it's related?  exposures tend to throw our bodies out of whack for awhile, and the results are often cumulative.

[gigismom]

I thought it was unrelated bc I initially had some yeast symptoms and then seemed fine for a few days after eliminating the drink and then sticking to the probiotic and clay. Then the bloating started. I guess at this point I have come to the conclusion that it was related. I doubted my own judgement bc dh has been giving me some grief for experimenting so much (his word). I am feeling better today so I will stay the course and definitely avoid the drink. It's funny though, I have never had symptoms that I attributed to any food sensitivity or intolerance. I started on this path bc of ds's issues and figured that my gut was not great in order to have a kid (the girls too but not as bad as him) with such a messed up gut. Now I clearly reacted to thus drink that was most likely a gluten exposure. I also can not eat chocolate or any amount of caffiene (killer headaches). This started after I cleaned up my diet and started on probiotics. Maybe I felt so regularly bad back then that did not realize any reactions. I dunno

[kl5]

De-lurking for a moment to ask about gut flora population. 100 trillion is the number a few folks have mentioned here, and I am wondering if there is a reference for that? (Tried to click on the Sciencemag article linked, but can only see the abstract without a subscription.) Wikipedia says: "The human body, consisting of about 100 trillion cells, carries about ten times as many microorganisms in the intestines." So, that would be 1000 trillion. I don't know why this is sticking for me and don't have a real sense of numbers that big. But am plotting an attack on the bad guys and thinking about dosage. Even 600 billion seems small in the face (I suppose bacteria don't actually have faces, but i digress) of 1000 trillion.

The other question I have is about strains. Does it really matter what we use? One or six or more? Are the b. strains bad as the SCD folks seem to think? Is the goal to establish colonies of the strains used or is the goal to let the supplemented strains outmaneuver the unwanteds long enough for the good stuff that is there to repopulate itself?

I suppose I may be overthinking this, but I need to work though it for myself.

On another note, I have been building up my intake of calcium bentonite and in 5 days or so have seen a reduction of redness and itchiness on my face (a sign of a food reaction for me) and elimination is slightly improved. Whatever happens with the probiotics (when I get there) I am grateful for this tread for introducing clay into my life (and my insides).

Edited by kl5 - 12/1/11 at 9:21am

[triscuitsmom]

As soon as I can find a local source for clay (we are in Ontario, Canada and there is a postal lock out so we aren't getting any mail so I need to not have to order online) we will start on it. I'd really like to get our gut health better. All five of us (me, DP, and our three DS age 4, 2, and 9 months) have issues. We've done probiotics before but never really high doses.

I'll post updates when I find some.

[DimitraDaisy]

Originally Posted by Panserbjorne 

There was a study by a neuropsych guy that found that a particular herb reliably switched people and that it worked as well, if not better, than the medication from pharmaceutical companies (great talk!)   Anyway, we've been using that as an essence and it does seem to support the neurological aspects nicely....but it's not enough.

I've been lurking here for a long time, experimenting with green clay and thinking about jumping in with VSL #3, so I've been reading this thread again and this caught my attention. Would you mind saying which herb / essence that is?

[Panserbjorne]

it was galanthus.

[DimitraDaisy]

Originally Posted by Panserbjorne 

it was galanthus.

Oooh, is that the snowdrop? How lovely!

[Panserbjorne]

indeed it is!  it has a pretty long history of use for neurological issues and is fairly well recognized as an herb.

[Koalamom]

Glad to see you are still around PB!

Just weaned my son a few days ago (boohoo), so now I am ready to start up on clay again. It did wonders before but I think with the lyme, it was just too much for my nursing boy. I do feel that the lyme transformed my body for good, and I still feel it. I think the clay almost pushed the lyme out/gone.

[gabbyraja]

Originally Posted by Panserbjorne 

I believe it IS there to protect the body, what you are trying to address is the underlying cause.  much like flies around a trashcan there is a reason that yeast would grow out of control.  You need to clean the trashcan.  as long as food is rotting in it you will always attract flies.  A nice clean can will not be of any interest to them.

It sounds like the goal of this protocol IS a nice clean can!

Originally Posted by gigismom 

Maybe I felt so regularly bad back then that did not realize any reactions. I dunno

I've come to the conclusion that this is me. I felt so bad for so long that when people ask me about the "onset of symptoms" I honestly can't tell them. I THOUGHT it all really started with a "cold" that I "couldn't shake" when I was around 20, and at the same time some "lingering virus" that caused diarrhea that the doc couldn't find a cause for in the stool tests. Then a frequent recurring conjunctivitis, which turned out to be allergies to the cats I'd had since I was 9 and never had a reaction to. Or did I...? I'm not sure now. Perhaps my daily headaches that I remember being excrutiating at the age of 10 had something to do with them. Or a food allergy I had no idea I had. Or the day-long bouts of vertigo I started getting around age 12.

I first learned about FAs when ds1 had bloody stools at 6 months. I knew NOTHING. Still didn't really know anything until I REALLY delved into it here and in print last winter. I never had FAs, just my kids did. It was last winter that I started narrowing down some problems I was having and discovered I am extremely reactive to onions. WHAT!? I ate them almost daily! They are so good, and good for you, and I'm allergic? THEY are why I would have frequent, sudden, explosive diarrhea, even incontinence twice. THEY were why my body hurt so badly there was a 3-day span in 2009 where I literally couldn't get out of bed. The one time I tried I screamed in pain and collapsed, wheeping, finally conceding to Darvocet to get up. But mostly it was just a low-grade general pain in my joints and back. My THUMBS hurt so badly that I couldn't open the simplest jar. That sucked. When I went off onions I didn't feel 90 anymore! I could NOT believe it. Now, I go into getting take-out know I'm going to have a bad day the next day (almost all take-out has onions/onion powder in it). That alone is freeing. Just knowing there's a reason, and being able to plan for the reactions.

So, anyway, I'm in! PLEASE everybody come back and update your progress? I can't believe I didn't see this before now. I'm about to embark on this aggressive, expensive 4-A protocol by Dr Kenneth Bock, and then I see this. This is CALLING to me! This makes so much sense, and seeing the CFU numbers in the one post made it all so clear. The advice to "take probiotics" for everything from Candida to healing allergies made me so frustrated, as the 1-2 pills per day we were taking seemed to do nothing at all. Now I know why! Threelac, however, kicks MAJOR BOOTY in me, so I am confident that this will do worlds of good for me and my family.

And PB, you've recommended clay to me before. You're the reason I have pascalite powder for tooth brushing. However, I never knew it did all this! I busted it out tonight and started my regular regimen on the spot, after reading this entire thread. The kids and I will be doing this first, then moving to Dr Bock's aggressive treatment, assuming we even need it. My 10 yr old has thyroid issues (gained almost 100 pounds in the last 18 months) and my 4 yr old is even sicker than him, with low-weight, digestive, rickets/poor absorbtion issues, along with some borderline autistic behaviors, so I'm thinking they'll at least benefit from moving on to Dr Bock's stuff. But this seems like the magic bullet I've been looking for. Off to find the group buy of CP Pbx I know is out there. I won't be able to afford to buy it for 8 people (mom, too, living with us with Fibro and IBS) until tax time in Feb, but we'll do the clay until then and be better off for it. THANK YOU PB, for existing, and even more for sharing!

ETA: I really want to know how long this had to go on before people moved to a maintenance-kefir-at-home dosage instead? I understand it takes your own time to work up to your tolerance, and then it's 1-2 weeks before gut healing... But, on avg what have you seen PB? Weeks, months? What am I budgeting for here?
 

Edited by gabbyraja - 11/21/11 at 10:13pm

[DimitraDaisy]

Originally Posted by gabbyraja 


ETA: I really want to know how long this had to go on before people moved to a maintenance-kefir-at-home dosage instead? I understand it takes your own time to work up to your tolerance, and then it's 1-2 weeks before gut healing... But, on avg what have you seen PB? Weeks, months? What am I budgeting for here?

 

And at the same time I'd quite like to know what doses we're talking about. I'm up to 4 sachets of VSL #3 a day after sticking with 3 for a long, long time, and really seeing the desired results (although there were changes). That stuff is expensive, the idea of having to take 5 or 6 sachets of day makes me slightly giddy... That said perhaps 4 is what it'll take. We'll see.